TM as possible upgrade choice from a class B

[Rich_in_Tampa]

New member here, considering the TM as an upgrade from our Great West Legend, a Sprinter-based class b. We like our rig quite a bit but do have a few lingering constraints and concerns. I wonder if anyone could provide some sanity checking as to whether a TM would be a sound strategy.

Problem 1: space. I think even I can confidently state that there will be a ton more room in a TM.

Problem 2: the bed in the Class B is too short. Are there any design issues in the TM which interfere with full enjoyment of the queen or king mattress in the TM? Like an overhanging shelf or cabinet just a it too close for comfort?

Problem 3: A/C noise. The roof unit in our Legend is right over the bed, not ducted, and sounds like a jet engine -- especially when trying to sleep. Looks like the TM has a similar rooftop design, but I am hoping that the air conditioner is placed far enough from the bed that it's not a show-stopper. Remember that we live in hot weather here, so the AC is an important necessity.

Any other considerations for such a change-over? Is there the equivalent of any basement storage? Are there any hybrid SUVs, like a Highlander, that anyone has found adequate?

Thanks for indulging me - I'm intrigued by this contraption.

[grakin]

#1 space - even the smallest TM is equivalent to a 26 foot conventional trailer. I think you'll be pleased by interior room.

#2 bed - I don't have any problems with the beds, but you might be longer or something than I am. I do find them quite high - it's hard to get into them, it's quite a jump. When you look at one, make sure you climb into bed.

#3 AC - It is *VERY VERY* loud IMHO. I can sleep through it, but, yes, it is loud. Very loud.

[mtnguy]

#2 - I am 6'3" and have plenty of room in the beds. I think they are as long as my queen at home.

#3 - The furnace is noisy also. But I think you will have that problem in any RV without ducted air & heat.

Chap

[Bob&Karen]

#1 - Space will be more in the TM. However, if you have a slide-out in your current rig, be aware that the side-to-side space will be less with a TM. I keep hoping their engineers will be able to develop a slide-out or tip-out.

#2 - We have a 3124 with king-size bed. I am 6' 6" and have plenty of room.

#3 - As others have stated, the AC is loud, but some here have modded their units to quiet it somewhat. I'm not sure what it entails...

Regards,

Bob

[Bill]

The SL models (like mine) have storage space under the couch that is assessible only from outside (unless you lift the couch cushion, which is kind of a pain). True, it is not below the floor - but is this a basement? Similarly, there is a compartment under the rear bed that is accessible only from the outside. Half the width of the TM, about 36" high, and about 18" front-to-back. This is where I keep water hoses / filters / connectors adapters, heavy duty extension cords, TV cable, tools, etc.

Bill

[Bill & Lisa]

Leon makes a good point on the Full beds. All of the models with a front bed only have a Full bed upfront. The only model with a Full bed in the rear is the smallest one (a 2619 - like leon has). All the other models have a Queen or King bed in back and two fit comfortably on either.

Advantage of the Kings is you can sleep with your head or feet pointed at the back window and either person can roll to the center of the bed and get out (to use the rest room or whatever). On the Queens you have to sleep with your head towards either one of the side windows. this means someone is sleeping near the opening and someone is sleeping alongside the rear window. If the rear window person needs to get up for any reason before the other person, they would have to crawl out over the person sleeping across the opening. Can be a little tough not to mention difficult.

Bill

[CAmark]

2720SL note:
I am 6'2" and sleep back to front "on an angle" with feet just going into the hallway when I stretch out....I seldom sleep stretched out so this is not a problem for me. This arrangement allows either of us to get out/in the bed without bothering the other too much. We do use the step stool to get in/out.
I tow with a Honda Pilot but suggest you use "search" for different types of SUV/mini-vans to get everyone's story -- there has been a wide range of opinion expressed and it all will serve to inform you so you can make your best decision...and your decision on a TV is really up to you.

Mark

[mtnguy]

Problem 3: A/C noise. The roof unit in our Legend is right over the bed, not ducted, and sounds like a jet engine -- especially when trying to sleep. Looks like the TM has a similar rooftop design, but I am hoping that the air conditioner is placed far enough from the bed that it's not a show-stopper. Remember that we live in hot weather here, so the AC is an important necessity.



Since I just used the TM to dry camp mostly in the cool weather since I bought it used last November, I have never used the AC while camping. I did try it out just to make sure it worked during 1 of the warmer days this spring, but decided to try it out again today in the 90s. It cooled down the TM to mid 70s within an hour, and it is not particularly noisy on low fan. The AC on the newer units (after 2002 I think) is mounted on the front shell away from the back bed, and some of the older units the AC was mounted beside the stove as a side mount unit. And on my TM, as I think most of the newer 1s, you can take the rear privacy curtain out of the slides, and mount the curtain on velcro on the wardrode cabinet and bathroom wall so that the air from the AC still flows over the curtain into the back bed area.

The TM is a lot less obnoxious than those confounded ACs in motel rooms !!!

Chap

[jmburg]

We became TM owners in May, finding ours on this forum. We have been very pleased but agree with Leon that dressing can be difficult. Our solution was to take out the wardrobe and replace it with 3 large stackable plastic drawers. They do not reach as high as the wardrobe and have made the bed area seem less confining. Also, we pull the bed privacy curtain, close the window curtain across from the bath and open the bath door to make a dressing area. The drawers hold our clothes and toiletries not stored in the bathroom. This has been much less cramped for us.

[Rich_in_Tampa]

I'm interested - located a dealer close by and will be looking at some models this weekend - I report back here to share my experience.

I'm a little concerned about how to work the deal: we hav a 1 year old 2006 Sprinter-based Class B which is high end and for which we paid about $75k. Naturally, we are taking the 1st year hit on resale, but had planned on keeping it a while (I know, I know ;)). So even with a big hit, the trade-in will be worth well more than the new trailer. May end up having to consign the Sprinter and do the deal after it sells. Unless the dealer is willing to sell me the TM and hand over a check at the same time???

As they say on the news, more later...

[Rich_in_Tampa]

Just got back from hours of poking around a large selection of TMs at Sun Coast RV here in St. Pete. Great selection, decent and knowledgeable salesman. The more I learned and poked around the more I became impressed with the ingenuity of the thing. So here are some questions I would love to have answered by my fellow consumers rather than a salesman:

1. Nothing but a vinyl flap separating me from the outside world. Any issues relating to wind, rain, security, insulation, tearing over time, snagging during setup, etc.?

2. We had no room to actually open and collapse the unit, something I intend to insist upon prior to possible purchase.

Seems to me that access to the interior (fridge, cabinets, etc. ) is impossible when the thing is collapsed, true? If so, it seems that pre-trip stocking involves opening the stored unit, loading it up, then closing it again before departure and the, of course, opening it at destination, closing it for the trip home, opening it again for cleanout and unstocking, then closing it for storage.

Since we plan lots of shorter trips until my retirement is this a legitimate concern? Or is opening and closing it that easy and quick? Or can you sneak in while it's collapsed to stick a few items in the cabinets?

3. Outside storage seems rather limited. Camping recliner chairs, bikes, and so on need a place in our lives. Are there sensible and not ridiculously priced options here? I have a cargo carrier but hope not to need it off the back of the TM.

4. How is side-to-side leveling and stabilizing handled: wheel chocks? Or are the built-in jacks adequate for most reasonabe campsites?

5. The infamous recycling toilet. In a real world setting, how many flushes, days, etc. can you expect before things get really unpleasant? I don't see a problem if you have a sewer dump station at your campsite, but I'd hate to have to hitch up and travel to the communal sewer dump every 2-3 days while staying at a state park. I realize this is subjective, dependent on your usage pattern, etc. but am looking for some kind of ballpark input.

6. In a pinch, could my 122 lb fit but slight wife open and shut this thing? We couldn't try it out at the dealer due to space constraints on the lot.

Overall, we were impressed with the space, ease of use, towability. The quality seemed decent, and the unit was bright with two skylights, a fan, lots of windows. If the trade-in price is right, we may go for it.

Thanks in advance for your help and advice.

[Bill]

Good questions, Rich -

Others will chime in, but here are my feelings.1. Nothing but a vinyl flap separating me from the outside world. Any issues relating to wind, rain, security, insulation, tearing over time, snagging during setup, etc.?The vinyl flap has a core, and so is heavier than it looks. So no problems with wind, rain, insulation, tearing, etc. Some people have said that with the right number of two-elbowed arms, a thief could reach in through an un-velcroed area, and either climb in or unlock a lock. I've never heard of it happening, though - it would take a rather knowledgable thief to even know this could be attempted. Before going to this trouble, most thieves would simply bash in a window.2. We had no room to actually open and collapse the unit, something I intend to insist upon prior to possible purchase. A very wise idea. You want to know exactly how to work this thing. I would not consider buying without opening/closing one in the parking lot.Seems to me that access to the interior (fridge, cabinets, etc. ) is impossible when the thing is collapsed, true? If so, it seems that pre-trip stocking involves opening the stored unit, loading it up, then closing it again before departure. And then, of course, opening it at destination, closing it for the trip home. And then opening it again for cleanout and unstocking and storage.Correct all around. That is the proper description of a collapsible trailer. And that is why it is so important that the thing open and close easily and reliably, and that you know how to do it.Since we plan lots of shorter trips until my retirement ... is opening and closing it that easy and quick?Yes. Admittedly it is not as easy as simply opening the door of a full-size TT and walking in - but it isn't hard. And it improves your planning skills!Or can you sneak in while it's collapsed to stick a few items in the cabinets?Depends on the model. On my 2720SL (slideout model) I have been known to open the front shell a bit, jump up on the hitch, and climb in over the couch. This probably works for the non-slideout models as well. This gives access to the refrig, as well as the ability to close the forgotten vents, and lower the antenna that mysteriously raised itself while we were closing. I can also dump an armload of forgotten clothes on the couch, and properly stow them when we arrive at our destination.3. Outside storage seems rather limited. Camping recliner chairs, bikes, and so on need a place in our lives. Are there sensible and not ridiculously priced options here? I have a cargo carrier but hope not to need it off the back of the TM.Here you are correct, and it is one of the limitations of ANY folding camper. You'll want to carry as much of this stuff as possible in the wayback of your tow vehicle, or on the tow vehicle's roof. You will also learn to do without a lot of it, I'm sure. We gave up on big folding recliner chairs (though we still carry standard canvas non-recliners), big outdoor rugs, and other "amenities" very quickly. On the other hand, bikes are easily carried on a rack on the back of the tow vehicle. Check out Allen Racks to find ones that don't involve the hitch. There are also hitch-mounted racks, of course.4. How is side-to-side leveling and stabilizing handled ... are the built-in jacks adequate for most reasonable campsites?Differing opinions have been expressed on this group. Use the Search tool. Many of us carry short lengths of plank (blocks) or Lynx levelers, and simply drive the low side of the TM up onto them. Others prefer to crank the jacks - which are plenty strong enough.5. The infamous recycling toilet. In a real world setting, how many flushes, days, etc. can you expect before things get really unpleasant?In my experience, things don't get unpleasant if you use the right deodorant, and the recommended dose of it. Use the Search tool for discussions of this topic.I'd hate to have to hitch up and travel to the communal sewer dump every 2-3 days while staying at a state park.You don't have to do this! If you camp in this situation, you would bring along a "Blue Boy" or "Blue Tote" - a heavy plastic container into which you dump the contents of your tanks. See them at CampingWorld.com. Then you roll the tote to the dump location. Again, use the Search tool - there has been lots of discussion. I realize this is subjective, dependent on your usage pattern, etc. but am looking for some kind of ballpark input.Most people realize about 3 days between dumps. Some are able to go longer - depends on how much you are willing to use the campground restrooms.6. In a pinch, could my 122 lb fit but slight wife open and shut this thing?Yes. In fact, there are some tricks that help in the opening and closing of the unit, especially if you get an electric tongue jack.

Hope this helps

Bill

[wbmiller3]

Bill & Leon pretty much covered it. Here's a bit more on your 2)

For anything other than an overnighter you will probably want to open the trailer the day before, if for no other reason than to turn on the fridge and get it cooled down. Again there are many posts on this topic on the forums.

With a little planning we can usually stow everything in the TV the last day and avoid the necessity of opening it before garaging it...but not always, especially if we've acquired a lot of bulky stuff on the trip...for example, the 55 gallon plastic drum I brought back on the last trip for use in expanding my rainwater harvesting system...and an antique china cabinet!

Another reason for opening the trailer before garaging it is that we don't "put it away wet" due to mildew concerns...so if we folded it down in the rain, we open it up again at home to get everything nice and dry.

There are lots of RVs out there and the TM isn't for everyone...but it's definitely for us.

[lnussbau]

Bill, Leon and Bill have pretty much covered it, but one more thing about your item 2: When we picked our TM up at The Car Show in Colorado Springs, they insisted on showing us everything before we towed it away. It actually took about two hours for them to go over opening, closing, setup tricks, practice for us in setting up and taking down, and question-and-answer, along with checking that everything works, from pressing the button on the TV antenna amplifiers to all the latches. The lady doing the instruction was perhaps a little more than 122 lbs, but not a lot, and she could set up the whole thing in short order (watched her doing it at an RV show in high heels, too).

I'd strongly suggest you insist on a similar session, if they don't offer it themselves.

Also, opening and closing the shells, along with swinging the door out to let yourself in only takes a minute or two, once you've practiced. You don't have to do a FULL setup (walls up, cabinet placed, etc.) to get in and add last minute food or clothing.

On item 4, at most campsites we've been to, the scissor jacks are more than adequate for leveling, though we carry along some blocks of wood for times when the site is more of a problem.

And, my 2720SL with the swingaway hitch and low profile air conditioner fits in my garage for storage.

[Bill & Lisa]

A couple of additional comments.
1. Vinyl flaps have only been an issue for us when we camped in below freezing temps. We added swim noodles in the tracks alongside the bed (from outside) and that helps on the cold draft that can result otherwise.

There have been many trips where we either took food in a dc coleman cooler and then loaded once we got to the campground (not real good since it still takes a while to cool down the fridge. More reasonable and feasible is empty what little food is left into a cooler when breaking down at the camp site and transport in the tow vehicle. We also move the dirty clothes to the TV and any thing else we want to "take home". We then are able to stop and drop our TM at the storage site without having to swing by the house first.

Potty stops on the road are tougher. They can be done but most times by the time you find a safe place, far enough off of the road to open the shells, there is normally a public restroom available there as well. Since your gas milage will only drop 1-2 MPG while towing the TM you could have to stop more often than just fuel stops but in my book that is a good thing.

Bill

[Rich_in_Tampa]

Well, my saga continues. The dealer finally got back to me, and made a low but credible trade-in offer. I plan to return there this weekend to open and shut the thing, see if he's good to his word, and possibly do the deal. I'm starting to get excited but have been around long enough to know it ain't over til it's over.

There are two TMs to consider: a 3124KS and a 2720SL. Wish there was a a "2821KS" but no dice.

Anyhow, I really like the big king bed and ability to sleep north-south, and the nice playpen it makes for lounging around on a rainy day (no wisecracks necessary ;)), so we may go that route. We'll try them out and see.

So, if you would indulge me a few more specific questions:

Driveway storage: just how close to the house can I snug this thing up during storage (boy am I going to need parking lot practice!). First, I want to be able to drive off easily without cutting the corner against the house. Second, will I need access to the port side of the trailer when opening it, or is it all done from the starboard side (other than unstrapping the thing)? Should be plenty of room fore and aft.

Towability and Driveability: recognizing that this would be my first towable RV, would you expect a noticeable difference between the 20 and 24 foot models? There is a 320# weight difference but I'm not sure how that translates to the road.

Tow Vehicle: I've scoured the boards and it looks like we will be buying a 4Runner. The 6 cylinder would be our choice for the 27 footer, but I'd tip toward the 8 cylinder for the 31 footer; both are rated at 5000 lbs. I know what a complicated topic this is, but does this sound reasonable and safe? Either would be with a WDH.

Stay tuned, and thank you for all your advice so far.

[camp2canoe]

I'll take a stab at your three inquiries - we're in our third year with a 2619.

1) Storage - You'll want to leave room to squeeze between the garage and the TM. If setting up for loading, cleaning, using as a guest room, etc. you'll want to be able to easily reach the locking bars to secure the shells. Also, as you have pointed out, you'll probably want some maneuvering room. Remember also that the electric, water and waste connections are portside.

2) Towability - There probably won't be too much difference between the models you've identified. You may actually find the longer unit easier to back. Remember to keep some weight on the hitch - don't load all the weight in back of the axle.

3) I'm not sure of the mileage difference between the two engines, but I personally would opt for the larger engine. It provides a margin of safety when fully loaded, passing or in hills or headwinds. The WDH is always smart although I've never missed one with my F-150 SuperCab. - Camp2Canoe

[Rich_in_Tampa]

[QUOTE=camp2canoe;38769]
2) Towability - ... You may actually find the longer unit easier to back.
/QUOTE]

Thanks. That's interesting. Is it because you can see the tail better?

Re: snug to wall: is 18" enough clearance from the house to allow me to sneak back there, plug stuff in, etc.? No worries about projecting hardware while setting up or breaking down, I gather?

[lnussbau]

Actually, a shorter trailer is a bit "twitchier" than a longer one, that is, it responds more quickly to even the slightest turn -- it's due to the length of the lever arm when turning during backing (that's almost constant -- small corrections).

An 18" clearance would be awfully snug -- I know I wouldn't even fit in that space, let alone be able to bend over to get at the shell release levers. And it'd be tough to get at the water connection and maintenance panels on the port side, and it'd be difficult to tighten the lug nuts and check the tire pressure there, too.

However, if you're willing to pull the trailer out (and have a place to do so) when ready to prepare it for the road, it might work. Personally, I'd want at least 2 1/2 or 3 feet.

One thing I'd note: DW and I manually push our 2720SL into the garage for winter storage (or any other time we need it in there). With the wheel on the tongue lift, if your location is almost level, it's easy for two people to move it around -- almost as easy as with a light aircraft. Once we get it moving, DW stands by with the chocks and checks clearances while I do the remainder of the moving. But if there's much of a slope, it could easily get away from you. Come to think of it, if my driveway were perfectly level, I'd have no trouble moving it alone.

[Rich_in_Tampa]

Well, we visited the dealer and decided on a new 2007 3124KS. They had one on the lot which I would have bought. However, my DW rightly pointed out that it was in bad shape for a new TT: buckling velcro, dirty window treatments, stains on the vinyl gap-flaps, etc. After politely but firmly putting them on notice that we expected it to be spanking new when we came back for it, the dealer suggested that maybe she'd be happier with a new one ordered fresh from the factory (either a 2007 or a 2008 model at 3% higher price).

We agreed on a trade-in price for my Class B and are ready to sign the deal. He said he would call us back on Monday after attempts to locate a unit nearby or ready to ship from the factory. My gut is telling me there's about a 50% probability he will come through (they have already failed to return calls x 2). We'll see.

If no dice, we'll continue to try and sell or consign our 2006 Great West Sprinter Legent Class B and ultimately buy the TM from the lowest bidder wherever that may be.

[SireMike]

I began to wonder about TM quality control after seeing a few new ones at the Tampa RV show last winter.

I saw a 3326 with screwed up trim, entrance assist handle ripped out of the back of the dinette, etc.

I would look it over closely before I signed over the Class B.

Actually when I had my TM I was thinking of using a class b as a TV for my TM.

The smaller TMs should tow behind a Class B ok and you have comfort while you are in transit and at the campground.

This seemed to be more efficient than upgrading to a Class A later down the road.

mike

[Rich_in_Tampa]

I began to wonder about TM quality control after seeing a few new ones at the Tampa RV show last winter....The smaller TMs should tow behind a Class B ok and you have comfort while you are in transit and at the campground.
mike

Thanks, Mike. Their story is that the SunCoast dealer in Charlotte closed and they received about 7 or 8 TMs rather suddenly as a result. They haven't fully detailed them yet, etc. I don't know - seems to me you detail them before taking them to an RV show or at least when you have a highly active potential customer like us. Hopefully he'll find me a new-from-the-factory one.

Towing the TM with my Sprinter is well within limits (capacity wise) but we're trying to pare down to two motor vehicles only, and have limited storage at the house. That would be a sweet combination though ;).

Any other experience with the Tampa dealer?

[tm3023bob]

I read this awhile back, I don't know if it applies to TM's: "It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money -that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything. Because the thing that you bought was incapable of doing the thing it, was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot (without risk) –it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run. And if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better."

[Rich_in_Tampa]

Well, the deal looks like it will proceed. I'll be getting a 2008 3124KS, trading in my Sprinter RV and actually getting a check back from the dealer. He's including a WDH, brake controller and receiver hitch for the TM. We decided to buy the television and microwave on our own. It will be out of the factory in a week or so, ready for pickup in a couple of weeks.

Now I've got to find a tow vehicle. 4Runner is leading the pack for the time being. Looking forward to the new toy immensely.

[bfezel]

Rich,

I would say that the 4Runner would do an excellent job for you. I pull my 3124KS with a 2002 Tundra and you can hardly tell it is behind you sometimes. I have the V-8 and I expect the running gear is very similar to the 4Runner. I do use a Reese WDH with 1,000 lb bars.

Bill

[Rich_in_Tampa]

I would say that the 4Runner would do an excellent job for you. I pull my 3124KS with a 2002 Tundra and you can hardly tell it is behind you sometimes. I have the V-8 and I expect the running gear is very similar to the 4Runner. I do use a Reese WDH with 1,000 lb bars.


Thanks, Bill - that's reassuring. Do you (and anyone else) agree that the V8 would be worth the moderate extra cost?

[SireMike]

I have a 2004 V8 4runner that we used to tow our 2004 3124 KS.

A V8 is a must if you have intentions to go places where there are hills. A packed 3124 is going to be in the 4000# plus range.

My gas mileage was around 13/14 when I was towing. I usually drove in 4th between 60/65 mph.

In my opinion more power is alot better than not enough.

Mike

[Rich_in_Tampa]

I have a 2004 V8 4runner that we used to tow our 2004 3124 KS.

A V8 is a must if you have intentions to go places where there are hills. A packed 3124 is going to be in the 4000# plus range.

Thanks, Mike. That scenario pretty much matches mine. Not sure how the 2007 4R engines comopare to the 2004 model, but I'll go with the V8 as you mention. I gather you like the vehicle (the 4Runner) in general (when not towing)?