Seeking Feedback on Solar Idea

[JohnMD]

Hi all,

I am looking for feedback from those with more experience and expertise. I currently have a 100W solar suitcase that has worked fairly well at campsites keeping our 100ah AGM battery charged. However, I’ve had to run the generator from time to time to help top it off. In addition to reducing the need for the generator, I would like to run the Norcold 300.3 refrigerator on battery while traveling. After reading through some posts, rather than exploring the DC-DC charger option, this is what I am thinking and would like your feedback on:

1. Mount two 175 Watt Renogy rigid panels on back shell using 3M VHB tape.

2. Connect in series?

3. Run wires down lift arm and to the tongue where the 100 ah AGM battery is located.

4. Add a second battery box to house a controller: Victron Energy SmartSolar MPPT 100V 30 amp (or 50 amp to allow future expansion?)




Any suggestions or feedback you have are greatly appreciated.

 

[JohnMD]

Hi all,

Just bumping this up to see if anybody has any thoughts on this. I am getting ready to order the equipment and supplies. I am leaning toward the 50 amp controller in case I want to expand. For a solar disconnect switch, should one match the the 50 amp controller with a 50 amp disconnect/breaker switch? I see a few on Amazon. Does anyone have a recommendation on brand?

Thanks!

 

[Shrimpburrito]

Hi all,

I am looking for feedback from those with more experience and expertise. I currently have a 100W solar suitcase that has worked fairly well at campsites keeping our 100ah AGM battery charged. However, I’ve had to run the generator from time to time to help top it off. In addition to reducing the need for the generator, I would like to run the Norcold 300.3 refrigerator on battery while traveling. After reading through some posts, rather than exploring the DC-DC charger option, this is what I am thinking and would like your feedback on:

1. Mount two 175 Watt Renogy rigid panels on back shell using 3M VHB tape.

2. Connect in series?

3. Run wires down lift arm and to the tongue where the 100 ah AGM battery is located.

4. Add a second battery box to house a controller: Victron Energy SmartSolar MPPT 100V 30 amp (or 50 amp to allow future expansion?)




Any suggestions or feedback you have are greatly appreciated.

Hi John,

As to your questions:

1) Sounds good, assuming they fit. I have three 100W panels on the rear shell with 3M VHB tape.

2) Perhaps. That's what I did, but you have to check the panel voltage. Higher voltage means lower currents, which lets you get away with smaller wire from the panels to the solar controller, AND allows you to charge more on cloudy days and during the dawn/dusk periods because a lower voltage from each panel is required to get the controller to start charging. The downside is that there is less shade resistance - if something shades one panel, it is my understanding that it will knock out more power from the other panels, though panels with more bypass diodes can help overcome that.

3) I really dislike the tongue for a battery location. The problem is that you're immediately putting yourself at a huge disadvantage in having the batteries so far from your distribution panel (with comparatively small wire), which means also means a much longer run for your controller. But, since you only have a 100Ah battery (and not lithium at that, which can handle much higher charge currents), you won't be pushing that much current, and so it's probably not a big deal. If you think you might add another battery, and/or switch to lithium, I think I would consider moving the batteries to the rear compartment. It wouldn't be a big project.

4) What is the maximum charge rate for your battery? I'm guessing it's on the order of 10 amps, and so even a 30A controller would be overkill. But if you think you might expand the batteries, sure, go for a larger controller. I have 200Ah of capacity, and have a 30A controller. The batteries can take far more than 30A, but with a 300W solar array, I don't get above 22-23 amps or so. And since I don't anticipate adding panels or batteries, it's the perfect size controller for my setup.

Dave

 

[JohnMD]

Dave,

Thanks for the feedback. (Please pardon any mistakes or confusion I may have as my intro to electrical engineering class was 35 years ago.) This gives me more to consider (regarding max battery charge current). My AGM 100AH specs show 0.30C, which I understand to be 30 amps, right? It also states "initial current -- 30A or smaller."

So, using a 30 amp controller with two 175watt panels would yield no more than 29.2 amps, right? (350/12 = 29.2) This works. But, this leads me to another question -- if charging the battery from solar and a 7-pin connector (or shore power) at the same time, what happens if the combined charge current exceeds the battery specs? When on shore power, I can use the disconnect switch, but driving down the road in full sun, if I am getting close to 30A and the 7-pin charge is sending a few amps that pushes over 30A combined, is this dangerous?

John

 

[Wavery]

Hi John,

Sorry that I didn't see this post sooner.

The 350W of solar will be great while the Sun is up. If you have enough sunlight those panels should take care of your needs just fine. That fridge on 12V draws a lot. I don't remember exactly how much but it's substantial. What that means is you will probably have enough power to fully charge that battery. If you do get a fully charged battery, it will probably last until about 3-8 hours after sunset. Then you have a dead battery and the next day, it will be all the solar can handle just to charge the battery and it's down hill from there.

My point is, you need to match battery storage with solar capacity. Having 2, 175W panels won't do a lot more than having 1, 175W panel with that battery. To have an effective system you need balance. Your 100ah AGM only has about 50ah of useable capacity. Once the Sun goes down, the lights and other 12V accessories come on and that's when you really start using that battery.

Here's a couple of suggestions.

1. Get yourself a 100ah (or 2) LiFeP04 batteries. They charge much faster and have 85% useable capacity (instead of 50%). They also last a lot longer than you will own that trailer. They will last thousands of cycles as apposed to hundreds of cycles with the AGM.

2. If you wire your 350W solar array in series, you don't need to be worried about the length of the wire run on your TM. Standard 10G solar wire will be fine.

3. A great place to mount your solar controller is on the front of the box. It is covered but visible when the trailer is open and totally hidden when the roofs are closed.

Here are some pics of the way that I mounted my solar and ran my wires down the arms. Another pic of my 110V charger and inverter on that front wall. Great place to mount your solar controller. You have to be careful in the location because of the interior cabinets in the front roof.

 

[Shrimpburrito]

Dave,

Thanks for the feedback. (Please pardon any mistakes or confusion I may have as my intro to electrical engineering class was 35 years ago.) This gives me more to consider (regarding max battery charge current). My AGM 100AH specs show 0.30C, which I understand to be 30 amps, right? It also states "initial current -- 30A or smaller."

Hi John,

Yes, you are correct in that 0.30C = 30 amps, but only because it's a 100Ah battery.

The 0.30C is the "C rate", which is the max amount of current that can flow in or out of the battery. It is the length of time, expressed as a fraction (or multiple) of an hour to completely charge/discharge. A C rate of 1.0C is the amount of current to completely charge or discharge the battery in one hour.

In your case, 0.30C means the amount of current required to do that in 3.33 hours (1 / 0.3 = 3.33), and since you have a 100Ah battery, that translates to a max current of 100 Ah / 3.33 = 30 amps. That's your max discharge/charge current for that one battery.

So, using a 30 amp controller with two 175watt panels would yield no more than 29.2 amps, right? (350/12 = 29.2)

Yes. In fact, the current would be less than that because the charging voltage would be on the order of 14v, so it would be more like 350/14 = 25.

This works. But, this leads me to another question -- if charging the battery from solar and a 7-pin connector (or shore power) at the same time, what happens if the combined charge current exceeds the battery specs? When on shore power, I can use the disconnect switch, but driving down the road in full sun, if I am getting close to 30A and the 7-pin charge is sending a few amps that pushes over 30A combined, is this dangerous?
John

Great question. When you have multiple chargers (which is what the solar controller, 7-pin connector, and on-board converter all are), each one senses the battery voltage independently and then applies charge current according to whatever algorithm it uses. If you have a fully depleted battery, then all the chargers are might want to charge at their maximum rate, assuming the battery will draw that much current. Lithium batteries will take charge currents that far exceed lead acid, and so when using lithium, you can quickly get to some pretty high charge rates when doing that (like 50A+). But my sense is that is much less of an issue with lead acid. Googling something like "battery chargers in parallel" will bring up some good reading. It's a very common scenario.

Wayne also gives some great tips.

Dave

 

[JohnMD]

Wayne and Dave,

Thanks for the great feedback. You make great points. I've been reading the board for a few years and have enjoyed reading about everyone's solar/lithium upgrades. We're heading out for a 5-week southwest trip in late June. Our long travel days will be followed by nights with full hookups, so we can switch to shore power overnight. I'm not up for a switch to lithium right now, but am not ruling it out for the future. I have learned a few things:

1. I spoke with Universal Power Group tech support and they confirmed the 30A max charge rate and stated they recommend staying around 27 max for my battery.


2. The Victron SmartSolar controller documentation states:

"Max charge current -This setting sets the maximum battery charge current. It is by default set to the maximum solar charge current.
Use this setting to reduce the charge current, for example, when a smaller battery bank is used that requires a lower charge
current."

So, if I go with 2 panels, I can lower the max charge rate setting to compensate for a few amps from the truck. However, I'm not sure how many amps would be coming from the truck while traveling...I guess figuring that out is now on my task list. (As an aside, I'd be curious to know what the charge current of the original WFCO converter is when on shore power, which I don't see noted in the manual.)

I understand sizing the batteries and array to one another, but figure I have a better shot at keeping the battery charged with the Norcold on battery power with two panels while driving.

John

 

[Shrimpburrito]

Hi John,

Yes, since I have a Victron solar controller, I can confirm that you can definitely limit the max charge current with the solar controller.

I can also guarantee you won't have more than 27 amps coming from the truck to the TM battery. Many of us even have problems keeping up with the fridge while it's on DC while traveling, and it takes about 10 amps (and I've measured it with an ammeter). So even with the fridge off, it isn't a problem, and with it on, you'd have to exceed 37 amps to the TM while towing before you'd exceed the 27 amp charge rate for the battery. That will never happen.

Dave

 

[rickst29]

John -

The "Main Board Assembly" with the WFCO power center., the Solar Controller(s), and any other charging sources will generally each utilize their own methods to determine if the batteries "need charging at all". In the case that any one of them sees "low battery voltage" and decides that "I SHOULD offer power to the appliances and batteries", they also choose what voltage to offer charging according to internal rules.

There are only a few exceptions to that generality, mostly involving Victron products sharing information on a VE control bus. A few other products can also share infrormation over TCP/IP. When Solar is avaiable and haas enough power to keep "battery voltage" high, the power converter board within the WFCO will usually decide that the batteries are full, and stop charging until the sun goes down.
- - -
Also: When Solar "charging" is holdling the battery voltage high, you will NEVER get significant current from the truck. If you add a "smart" DC-->DC charger, it wil behave like another solar controller - the first one who offers power and pushes the voltage up wins, the others will all subsequently see that "my power is not needed at this time".

 

[JohnMD]

Rick,

Thanks for the additional information. I wasn't planning to run the solar and WFCO concurrently. I figured I would usually switch off the solar disconnect when on shore power. I was mostly trying to figure out if there would be an issue sending too many amps to the battery with the solar panels and tow vehicle charging at the same time. Also, I wasn't planning to add a dc-dc charger. I figured adding solar for charging while towing would help keep the fridge cool and also allow more charging when not on hookups at the campground.

You wrote: "When Solar "charging" is holdling the battery voltage high, you will NEVER get significant current from the truck." So, even without a dc-dc charger, you think this would be okay?

I want to reiterate how much I appreciate this forum and those of you who continue to post such great advice for everyone!

Thanks!

John

 

[Casey Freswick]

Normal charge

Yes, I am still here. I did not connected the wire from my TV to my battery. I also normally just shut the breaker off for the converter. I charge my battery (batteries) with my vitron 30 amp solar controller. I have 3 100 watt solar panels on the back of the rear shell. If I have access and need shore power I will turn the circuit breaker on. I just added a 200 Amp battery to my 100 amp battery. So I now have 300 amp battery bank. I put the 200 amp battery in the storage compartment under the rear bed. This may be particularly beneficial if I am in a low temp situations where I can warm that battery up. I have shut off switches for both batteries. Here are pictures of my bus bars, one battery, solar controller and inverter.

 

[Kidkraz]

Casey, looks good, but are you planning to cover the bars? In my past aviation years, any buss bars had protective covers to prevent inadvertent shocks.
Otherwise well done.

 

[Casey Freswick]

Covers

I put the picture of wiring when uncovered, otherwise you would not be able to see the hookups. It is covered. I created a wood box that covered all the positive terminals as well tapeing the positive battery terminal and then putting a plastic cover over that. DID NOT leave any positive connection uncovered. In addition I only put water hoses and electric cords in storage compartment.

 

[rickst29]

Rick,

Thanks for the additional information. I wasn't planning to run the solar and WFCO concurrently. I figured I would usually switch off the solar disconnect when on shore power. I was mostly trying to figure out if there would be an issue sending too many amps to the battery with the solar panels and tow vehicle charging at the same time. Also, I wasn't planning to add a dc-dc charger. I figured adding solar for charging while towing would help keep the fridge cool and also allow more charging when not on hookups at the campground.

You wrote: "When Solar "charging" is holdling the battery voltage high, you will NEVER get significant current from the truck." So, even without a dc-dc charger, you think this would be okay?

I want to reiterate how much I appreciate this forum and those of you who continue to post such great advice for everyone!

Thanks!

John

John, Solar is harmless while plugged in, and actual beneficial in most situations. The "battery management" scheme implemented in the WFCO power converters has evolved over time, but is generally very bad: They drop to "float" operation before the batteries are full, and won't recovery to "boost" operation until the battery voltage has been run down too far. (Lead acid batteries should be kept near 100% state-of-charge for as much time as possible, while not overcharging).

While the sun is shining and the panels provide sufficient power, a decent solar controller can be programmed to push the batteries up (and keep them near 100%) far better than the WFCO converter - which cannot be programmed (i.e,. "fixed") to do a good job of maintaing the batteries
- - -
Lithium batteries do not like to be stored at high voltage, but you have two ways to manage that voltage (which is HIGHER than the "12v"voltages used for lead acid battery management). You can modify your solar controller sesttings, if that is convenient, or you can modify the lithium battery "BMS" settings instead.

BMS = "battery management system", a small computer and power controller which protects the battery cells (in several different ways) and keeps their voltage values in balance when they become charged to high high voltage levels (e.g., more than 93% full). A "12v" Lithium battery contains 4 cells,
and must always be built with a BMS.

The best BMS units are programmable from cellphone apps using bluetooth, and the bluetooth signals easly go through the aluminum skin of the TM body panels layers of the and upper shells. The best way is to probably to set your solar controller output voltage at nearly 14 volts maximum and the "float" value nearly that high, while using lower BMS limits (13.300 to 13.600 volts in total, specified as per cell limits of 3.275 volts or 3.375 volts in "storage" to actually prevent unwanted excess power from reaching the cells.
- - -
Your total solar panel size will need to be at least "200 watts" to run the fridge(with 12 volt DC power) normal weather. (While actually driving the DC heater, the fridge uses about 140 watts. A pair of "100 watt" solar panels, mounted flat on the roof and perhaps experience some shade, with never make 200 watts - the angle into the sun is wrong. The sun also becomes weaker in late afternoon, and later moths of the camping season -such as August.)

In hot weather or August, you will need to install at least "300 watts" of panels to keep up with the fridge load.

Adding a DC-->DC charger for up to 15A through the bargeman (from the truck) can also help to run the fridge or charge the batteries, adding another 110-140 watts while cruising dow the road. But you must not exceed 15A maximum current on the bargman cable's "trailer battery charge" wire, because you will create too much risk of burning out the cable.

(The wire is usually very small, and the cable's heavy duty 'flexible outer shell' wrapping prevents generated heat from escaping easily. The connection from the small wire end to the all wire to the 7-pin connector plug is also prone to failure when run at high current for extended periods of time.)Solar

 

[rickst29]

Casey: NOT well done (IMO), and I have additional issues as well.

Casey, looks good, but are you planning to cover the bars? In my past aviation years, any buss bars had protective covers to prevent inadvertent shocks.
Otherwise well done.

I strongly agree (with Kidkraz), with the "bus bars" must have protective insulation on all sides. But I see additional "issues" in these pictures:

1. The "bus bars" have insufficient cross-section to support the loads implied by the attached wire sizes (too thin, and they should probably have been coated anyway).
2. Although you may have considerable "trust" in the overall protection provided by the BMS units of these batteries packs, BMS units are TOO SLOW to protect from from sudden short circuit situations. You need to add a class-T "fast response" fuse to provide that protection. You can consider one fuse (maybe in the range 350A - 450A) for both batteries in parallel, or (better!) you can [protect each battery with its own fuse each matching the PEAK.output whi h I attach, for your reference a photo of a decent fuse and fuse holder, in which you might note the size of bus bars needed for a 300A connection: nearly 1" wide, 1/4" tall, pure OFC copper which has been COATED. This fuse holder is about 7" long, 2" wide, 2-1/4" tall. "bigger" one are even larger.
3. Your vast number of smaller wires, many "magically looping" to or from the WFCO fuse board out of sight and unlabeled, is confusing (and therefore dangerous). You should add an additional DC fuse board in this area, connecting all the "smaller" 12v wires on individual fuses, drawing power form the main bus through another (larger) fuse. This cheap Amazon one supports 100A max current, with either 6 or 12 downstream fuses and connectors: https://www.amazon.com/Circuit-Negative-Waterproof-Indicator-Automotive/dp/B08XWQHMZJ

 

[Casey Freswick]

Casey: NOT well done (IMO), and I have additional issues as well.

Your vast number of smaller wires, many "magically looping" to or from the WFCO fuse board out of sight and unlabeled, is confusing (and therefore dangerous). You should add an additional DC fuse board in this area, connecting all the "smaller" 12v wires on individual fuses, drawing power form the main bus through another (larger) fuse. This cheap Amazon one supports 100A max current, with either 6 or 12 downstream fuses and connectors:

Rick and all,

If you are talking about some 12v wiring you can hardly see in the bottom right hand corner, that is the wiring that came with the TM and is already connected to the 12v fuse box of the TM. In the past I took the 120V 30 AMP shore extension cord out of the "box" that you pushed the cord into in the back compartment of the TM. I then removed the "box" that the original cord was pushed into. So you can see(barely) from the bottom right rear compartment the back of my new lithium converter and original 12 volt fuse box of the the TM. I then wired an outdoor outlet under the TM in the back that you can plug in when the shell is down. I now use this outside plug and a 30 AMP extension cord whenever I use shore power. Since I put in solar I do no longer often use shore power. Because I removed the 30 AMP extension cord from its original place, I used the hole for the original extension cord for my solar wiring. All this to explain the 12v wiring in the bottom right hand corner of my original picture. All the wires that you clearly see are 2/0 wires. Rick recommended 2 2/0 wires for all connections between my lithium batteries and inverter, both positive and negative. Hope this helps explain my 12v "wiring" situation.

Casey

 

[JohnMD]

Hi all,

The suggestions and feedback here gave me the confidence to do this install. I have two 175 watt panels connected in series to a Victron Smart Solar MPPT 100/50. However, I don't think it is working correctly and cannot figure out why. Attached is an image of what I see on the Victron Connect App.

It indicates voltage, but no current. The battery voltage shows 13.81 in this screenshot, but when measured with my multimeter at the battery terminals, it was reading 12.9. Yesterday, when I tried this, my battery was lower, around 12.5, and Victron app was reading over 13. Does the controller think the batter is fully charged when it is not and thus not sending a current? I've read different things online, but everything seems to be connected correctly.

Any thoughts are appreciated as I am not sure how to proceed.

John

 

[JohnMD]

Of, course, as my pattern goes...I spend a day trying to figure something out, post to the forum the next day, and then figure it out while waiting for a response!

So, I made MC4 connectors that I put between the charge controller and the battery to use as a quick disconnect, if wanted. For some reason, one or both of these MC4 connectors is the issue. I bypassed these connectors and now everything seems to be working fine.

John

 

[rickst29]

Does the 'wrong battery voltage' issue remain present?h

John, I'm glad to hear that you found (and fixed) that connector issue on the solar side.

However, Victron's measurement of the battery-side 'Voltage' is probably independent of whether the Solar is connected all. (In my cheaper EpEver controllers, that is definitely the case.) So I suspect your "battery voltage" is still showing a wrong value.

If your SCC will apply different current limits for "bulk/boost" versus "float" charging, then you need to re-calibrate that battery-side voltage value.

Just remember that if the batteries are also being discharged while the Victron "watches them", the voltage will be pulled down by the loads. Try to do that callibration with batteries "idle" and unaffected by either charge or discharge current (including charge current from main Converter Board, when plugged in).

 

[JohnMD]

Rick,

Yes, this all makes sense. The PV connections were fine, but the battery side connections were not. The battery voltage readings on the SCC are now exactly matching my multimeter. I am feeling really good about the setup for now.

Thanks!

John