Advice for prospective buyer

[S&C-Nevada]

Hello. I’m a prospective travel trailer buyer. This is my first post on your forum.

I’ve not owned a travel trailer before. In the past, I’ve hiked and backpacked and we’ve car camped. We’re older now, recently retired, and my wife has declared she is no longer interested in tent camping. I’ve done some research and concluded a folding tent trailer or a Trailmanor will meet our needs.

I own a 1999 Toyota 4Runner, SR5 4x4 with 3.4 L V-6 engine, 5-spd manual transmission and a tow capacity of 5000 lbs. The truck’s GVWR is 5250 lbs with a curb weight of 3885 lbs. We generally travel light, so I believe our payload will be less than 1365 lbs, assuming a tongue weight of 350-400 lbs. I realize the 4Runner is a mediocre tow vehicle (short wheel base and high center of gravity) but it meets my other needs. And it’s the vehicle I have.

I’d like to purchase a used Trailmanor 2417KD. We like the floor plan-we need only one bed and prefer the dinette. Its weight (2280 lbs dry and about 3530 lbs loaded) appears to be within the capacity of the truck. However, I’ve not been able to find this model. The 2720QD appears to be more common. The floor plan is acceptable. However, it is about 600 lbs heavier (2865 lbs dry and 4075 lbs loaded.)

So, I’d like advice on my purchase. I’d prefer the 2417KD. It weighs less the 80 percent of the rated tow capacity of the truck. The 2720QD is more available and meets the truck’s towing requirements on paper, but I’ve read the operational weights of Trailmanor trailers are heavier than the specified weights. Is the 2720 too much trailer for the 4Runner?

Thank you.

Steve

 

[Bill]

I won't advise you on the specifics of the 4Runner, since I've not owned or used one. But let me toss a few other things into the pot.

First, a lot of our members tow with 5000-pound rated vehicles, and seem happy with them. I'm sure you will hear from a few of them later today. I am of the uneducated opinion that your manual transmission is a good thing. Automatics, especially of that vintage, have a lot of internal slip, which generates heat. And heat kills transmissions. At some point, manufacturers started building automatic transmissions that lock up, though of course they did it for MPG reasons, not for towing reasons.

Very few 2417 models were produced. You might find one, but it might take a while. So you need to decide on your degree of patience. The 2417 grew a foot, becoming the 2518. Have you taken a look at the Trailmanor.com web site, to evaluate this option?

My first question for prospective owners is always "Where do you plan to tow?" It should be obvious (but usually isn't) that towing in the Rockies or Sierras or even the Appalachians not the same as towing in the midwest or Gulf coast. Since you are located in the west, you will probably want to visit/camp in mountainous terrain, so your tow vehicle will work a little harder, despite the fact that vehicle manufacturers give it a single number.

If you plan to camp in bear country (Yosemite, for example), you must have a hardside trailer. In some of these campgrounds, any trailer that has canvas is not allowed. A TM counts as a hardside, but a tent trailer / pop-up does not. I'm not sure where the hybrid trailers (hard-side upright trailer, but with canvas pop-out bed ends) fall.

I think "operational weights" (what does that term mean?) of a TM are reasonably accurate, but I'm glad you know the difference between "dry weight", "curb weight", and "loaded-ready-to-travel weight". As you recognize, it is always good to pack light. My wife and I pack heavy when we make our twice-a-year cross-country change of location journey, and our TM passes 4000 pounds, I'm sure. Remember that anything you put in your tow vehicle subtracts from its tow rating, pound for pound.

Good luck with your hunt - and feel free to ask more questions. That's what we are here for.

Bill

 

[Kidkraz]

Not to be disrespectful here, but Yosemite allows soft sided camper and tents.
If the camper is hard-sided, you can have food inside the camper. If it's a soft sided or tent then you'll have to use the bear lockers for food and any other tasty or smelly items. I've been told in the past, in other bear country, refrain from using perfumes or smelly deodorants, since that can attract bears.
The best thing is do yer research before you make reservations or reach out to the camp ground for info prior to making reservations.

 

[S&C-Nevada]

Bill,

Thank you for your prompt response. I'm encouraged that other Trailmanor owners have good results with tow vehicles with a 5000 lb tow rating. This is the general information I'm looking for. I will research further what I need to do (weight distribution hitch, etc) to address the specific weaknesses of my tow vehicle. Yes, I believe the manual transmission is a slight advantage in a tow vehicle.

Thanks for the heads up about the limited production numbers of 2417s. Yes, I have looked at floor plans and specs for 2518s and they are attractive to us. However, I've seen very few used 2518s as well. We've chosen a poor time to purchase our first travel trailer because of additional demand caused by the coronavirus pandemic.

Our goal is to travel to many national and state parks, initially in the West. So, yes, we will be towing the trailer in mountainous terrain, placing additional strain on the tow vehicle.

I was not precise in my use of the term "operational weight." I was trying to communicate the difference in specified weight and actual weight of the trailer. I read somewhere that the Trailmanor specified weights are for a "bare" trailer at the factory before installation of options, including many common options like air conditioning and awning. I was concerned that this difference may be significant.

Thank you again for providing me the benefit of your experience and for your well wishes during our search for a Trailmanor.

Steve

Steve

 

[Bill]

I was not precise in my use of the term "operational weight." I was trying to communicate the difference in specified weight and actual weight of the trailer. I read somewhere that the Trailmanor specified weights are for a "bare" trailer at the factory before installation of options, including many common options like air conditioning and awning. I was concerned that this difference may be significant.
Steve

You were told correctly about the bare weight of a TrailManor trailer - and every other trailer. The bare weight, before additions of any options (air conditioner, awning, etc), is known as "dry weight", and every manufacturer provides this number. Then, once you add in all of your chosen factory-installed options, but no passengers or cargo, you arrive at "curb weight". And finally, when you add in all your stuff - food, clothes, bedding, tools, small appliances, dishes, and so forth - you arrive at what I call ready-to-camp weight. This is the number that your tow vehicle has to cope with, of course. And as you surmise, the difference between dry weight and ready-to-camp weight can be substantial. The actual ready-to-camp weight is the gross weight, and it must not exceed the Gross Weight Rating (GVWR) specified by the manufacturer.

In reality, the dry weight number is of very little use to you, but all manufacturers provide it. You have no control over dry weight. But you can pack light to control the ready-to-camp weight.

Bill

 

[Bill]

Not to be disrespectful here, but Yosemite allows soft sided camper and tents.
If the camper is hard-sided, you can have food inside the camper. If it's a soft sided or tent then you'll have to use the bear lockers for food and any other tasty or smelly items. I've been told in the past, in other bear country, refrain from using perfumes or smelly deodorants, since that can attract bears.
The best thing is do yer research before you make reservations or reach out to the camp ground for info prior to making reservations.

I will admit that it has been a number of years since we camped in Yosemite and King's Canyon in our first TM. But at that time, at least some campgrounds (possibly not all, I should have said that) would not admit tent trailers. We watched some being turned away at the campground entrance. A ranger came by as soon as we were parked and set up, and gave us the "bear story". He told us that all food that has a smell (unopened canned food was an obvious exception) MUST be stored in bear boxes during the night - it was not optional. He also told us that any smelly cosmetics - soap, shampoo, deodorant, etc) had to be stored in the bear boxes - again, not optional. And all trash had to go in bear-proof dumpsters before nightfall.

After dinner, a ranger came around to every newly-arrived trailer, and gently but insistently checked the trailer for any forbidden items. He told us that everyone does it wrong the first night, but it was important. I agreed, and added a few smelly items to the bear box. Beyond that, coolers were not allowed overnight in the passenger compartment of a car unless they were covered with a rumpled up blanket. The ranger told us that bears have learned to recognize any rectangular box shape as a cooler, and will try to get at it even if it has no smell. And they have been known to rip open a car door (!) to get at it. He had pictures of that - what a mess! And if they can rip open a car door, they can rip open a camper door. That got our attention, for sure.

Perhaps bears are better behaved now - it is actually possible, since rules against feeding wildlife are much more stringent now than they were in the past, so bears are not as accustomed to handouts. And not all campgrounds have grizzlies in the area. Canvas restrictions are not in force at all campgrounds, and I should have made that clear. But a quick read of several RV forums such as the Jayco Owners Forum tells us that a number of owners have actually encountered canvas restrictions at SOME campgrounds, just as we did. Among those mentioned as actual experience (not rumors) were SOME at Glacier, Yellowstone, Grand Teton, Jasper, and a number in Wyoming. In each case, it was said that there were other campgrounds within reach that did allow canvas. And in some cases the canvas bans were temporary, so I should have mentioned that. But I won't take much risk in grizzly country.

The best advice is in your last sentence. Do your research before reserving.

Bill

 

[Larryjb-HILO]

This is interesting. We live in bear country throughout the province of BC. The cities seem to be more fussy and will fine you if you put your garbage out too early. Sometimes they even peek into your garbage can to make sure you don't have any forbidden items in it.

I have never received such specific instructions in campgrounds in BC. Granted, we haven't stayed in a Provincial Park campground. I wonder if Yosemite was going through a period of time when they had more difficulty with bears? Or perhaps the policy makers for the State parks were being a little too paranoid? (Of course, you do have to have some level of paranoia in bear country, I'm not dismissing that.)

 

[J_Norris]

Hello Steve,
Greetings to you from Flagstaff! We regularly take our TM to Valley of Fire. I’ve added more detail than you may want since our camping region likely overlaps yours.

We pull a 3124KS with a factory-towing long-bed double cab Tacoma. Everything you’ve said and heard from others here for towing matches what I would think. We’re fine power-wise on most interstates, although the big hills to Flagstaff from the west require patience.

We have driven to hike the Sierras from Flagstaff 3 times – all September. Because of our truck isn’t super-powered, and with those valley temps in Nevada that can be over 100F, we’ve always taken the mountain-front highway through Lone Pine to avoid any of those wonderful but steep highway passes through the Basin and Range. An annoying but acceptable compromise for us.

BTW, we also migrated from backpacking, car camping, large tent camping, and now with aging and minor medical issues, to the Trailmanor. Just to throw in some other things that were important for our decision and what we’ve since learned:

King bed is a big deal for us. Not climbing over one another in the night is important. It may not be for you, depends on your physical condition and bladder.

Western camping in the Trailmanor has opened a whole new season for us in Southern Utah, Nevada, and Arizona. We usually boondock, and our night temps now typically range from the mid-teens (Fahrenheit) to low 50s, accompanied by pleasant sunny hiking days in the 50s – 70s. It’s especially nice if you enjoy the low sun photography of winter or have dogs that don’t like hiking in heat. A third benefit is when we do stay at campgrounds, they are much less raucous at night in the western off-season because the cold temperatures calm things down . I suspect it would be harder to stay warm in a more standard pop-up... although we have a little old dog that requires warmer temps at night than you may need.

Last but very important for many near-desert westerners: I hadn’t realized how amazingly easy it is to ‘winterize’ the Trailmanor compared to most true travel trailers. In Flagstaff it can drop below freezing 8 months of the year, and many of those months are prime camping season in the nearby deserts. I’d need to buy tremendous quantities of antifreeze and purchase an air compressor if I was going to winterize a true travel trailer after every trip! I’d guess that pop-ups are much easier than TTs, but for us the Trailmanor is the sweet spot in-between. There are good posts here for winterizing during and after trips. You probably won’t need it in Las Vegas, but Southern Utah is where we regularly camp well below freezing with some minor precautions described on this forum.

Best of luck in your hunt. We found our perfect TM by religiously checking the Craigslist search engine called Searchtempest and driving 7 hours for it. No regrets on the distance or purchase EXCEPT that we should have bought mirror extenders first! There is also another classified ads setup that operates in Utah that had some good listings, I can’t remember the name.

Jodi

 

[J_Norris]

I found that other classified ads site I mentioned earlier, it's https://classifieds.ksl.com/

 

[S&C-Nevada]

Hi Jodi,

Thanks for your post and information.

Flagstaff is a wonderful place. It is on my short-list of places to live if we leave Las Vegas. I'm still a member of Museum of Northern Arizona.

Our progression from backpacking, to hiking, to small tent camping, and finally to large tent car camping is similar.

Valley of Fire is a beautiful place. Have you been to Gold Butte?

Thanks for your information on towing with the Tacoma. I presume that your Tacoma is newer that my 1999 4Runner and probably has a more powerful engine and an automatic transmission.

Thank you for the information on classified advertisements. We've actually purchased a Trailmanor this weekend. We purchased a 2002 2720 SL. We had two options: an older 2002 2720SL and a newer 2011 (or 2012) 2720 SD. I prefer the dinette floor plan, but the 2002 was less than one third the price of the 2012. The 2002 was used hard and will require some "sweat equity" to bring it to my wife's standards. I'd also prefer a king bed, but a queen bed will work for us as long as I'm the one sleeping closest to the bathroom. On the trip from home after purchase, I also realized that I will need to purchase mirror extenders.

I appreciate your information on winterizing the Trailmanor. I will probably not need to do that this year. As you know, exploring the wilderness in the Southwest US in the winter is ideal; lower temperatures and fewer people.

I should close. Tomorrow I'm planning to face the DMV gauntlet (even more difficult with COVID restrictions) to register the travel trailer. Perhaps our paths will cross in a Southwestern national park or state campground. (BTW, you used the term Basin & Range Province. Not many people do. Are you a geologist?)

Steve

 

[J_Norris]

Hi Steve
Congratulations! Sounds like you made a great choice. Your trailer is very similar in age to ours, and ours has been a great way to refine our vision of what we really want in our new version of camping without making a big investment that we’d regret (although the tradeoff is certainly a lot of learning and time in maintenance!). This forum is an amazing resource for owning an older TM.

We do have a little more powerful truck, but I would guess the overall power-to-trailer-weight ratio is similar to yours, since our trailer is a heavier model and has gotten heavier still with repairs and additions.

I have not been to Gold Butte yet, but have seen beautiful pictures from there and plan to visit someday.

Good luck at the DMV, and you guessed correctly: I’m not a practicing geologist and am not good at geology, but I do have a degree in it and I love to read about western geology. We often take along geologic field trip guides when we’re out and about. From your description, I'm sure our paths will cross someday even if we don't realize it, and I'm guessing we'll see you more on the forum as you progress with your improvements.

 

[Larryjb-HILO]

My congratulations go to you as well! We have the 2001 SD so it is likely very similar to yours although there are differences even within the same model year.

Ours was well loved as well, so I've had to do a number of repairs that other's haven't had to do.

Here's the very first thing I'd do, for peace of mind. Remove all the vents and risers and reseal them with ProflexRV. You may need to replace the risers, but I found some 1" vinyl square trim from Home Depot that just needed cutting to size. Place a bead of sealant between the roof and riser, and another bead between the riser and vent. If yours is screwed to the roof, place a dab of sealant into the screw holes. It's a pain to do, but it guarantees a good seal.

I have played the seal over the tops of all seams and screws before and failed to get a good seal every time. I even used the Eternabond tape and I couldn't get it to lay flat in one spot. Guess what, that leaked too. Doing what I did has made a great seal and haven't had any more leaks.

Some have had the center seam leak too, but I don't think many have had that problem. I also removed the edge trim and sealed all the screw holes, replaced all the screws with stainless and redid those seams as well.

We have really enjoyed ours a lot and took it from Vancouver BC to Anaheim. I'm pretty sure you knew what we were doing!

And consider joining HarvestHosts if you like wine and golf. It's perhaps a version of "loondocking" (instead of "lamping", if you get my drift!)

Enjoy!

 

[D and D-ESC]

S&C Nevada- my husband and I bought our used 2417 trailer a few years ago off a notice in this forum, so do watch here. Ours is a 2013, which I think may have been the last year they made this size. At the time we bought it, we had seen several on Craig's list as well. This one met our needs best.

Our TV is a Toyota Tacoma and it tows well. We've had smaller trailers and this actually tows better than the smaller ones.

I do recommend the weight distribution hitch, no matter what. That is certainly one of the reasons it tows so well (in my opinion).

Also, this forum has been extremely useful. Even having had trailers in the past, this one is so unique that the forum has answered a lot of questions for us. If you do purchase a TM, I strongly advise getting a subscription to this forum.

All that said, good fortune finding what you want!

 

[D and D-ESC]

Steve, I apologize that I just sent you a message about the 2417, without realizing you'd already bought your TM! Sorry.

By the way, we're in Washoe Valley (between Reno and Carson City)! It's great to know of another TM owner in the Silver State.

 

[rickst29]

Extender Mirrors (and etc).

On the trip from home after purchase, I also realized that I will need to purchase mirror extenders.

Steve: Other towing mirror pairs can be had for much less money than the Milenco Aero-3, but the cheap sets are hard to mount and more likely to slip around on 4-Runner mirrors of later generations (I own a 4Runner Gen-4 V6, from 2007.) Your mirrors are more boxy, and less likely to cause as much slip with cheap ones. But I owned a cheap set and later replaced them with a pair of Aero-3 "Extra Wide" mirrors, at a price of more than $100, due to difficulties in mounting the cheap ones and frequently suffering slippage from the fixed mirrors on the road.

Your Gen-3, even if it is the wider "limited" model, is about 4 inches less wide than my Gen-4. I therefore recommend that you also get the "Extra Wide" version, because you therefore need about 2" more extended width on each side than I do. For me, the "standard" width would have been marginal.
- - -
Now for the 'etc': I agree with others than WDH is mandatory for your combination, and also wonder a bit about your battery plans. Nevada has very few "plug-in" RV parks, and Utah has only a few more. If you shift over to the 'electrical' technical area, you will see a lot of discussions about battery alternatives which might be good for Boondocking in such locations. For Late Spring and all of the Summertime, you might also take a look at the "Solar Power" technical area - TMO has a ton of Solar Installations documented and discussed down there.

- Rick (from Reno)

 

[Larryjb-HILO]

A few people here recommended I get the McKesh Mirrors. They are a little pricey, but well worth it.

Remember that in many states, by law, you must be able to see the same point 200 feet behind you from both mirrors at the same time. I'd say this is good advice even if it is not required by law.

 

[Bill]

I have McKesh as well. I haven't checked the 200-foot thing, but the important thing to me is that I can see everything on both sides of the trailer, and see if anything is going wrong. Is the entry door swinging open (a problem I had with both of my previous TMs)? Did I forget to fasten any of the corner latches? Is a tire looking visibly soft? Is the awning looking a bit unfurled? Are the steps out? Are all the running lights on when they should be? I haven't had most of these problems, but I sure like being able to check them.

Beyond that, I can see behind my trailer, and all the way back down the adjacent lanes. No blind spot.

Bill

 

[S&C-Nevada]

Hi Everyone,

Thank you for your helpful responses. A short note.

I apologize for my tardy response. Last week a small tile contractor called us about a cancelled job, allowing us to move forward this week on a home improvement project. So, we've been redecorating our master bedroom; new tile, baseboard, paint, closet doors, and window treatments. We completed all the work ourselves except the tile.

The travel trailer project is on hold for the moment. A short update: I've been to DMV and have a temporary movement permit. I've contacted a local RV dealership who sells Trailmanor travel trailers and inquired about scheduling a systems check. I've purchased towing mirrors for the 4Runner. I selected the McKesh mirrors. I've rewired the electric brakes. (I checked the brakes at time of purchase, but, later on the way home, noticed two electrical lines dragging behind the trailer.) I've ordered and received a deep cycle battery. I've checked the electrical systems and the AC and DC systems appear to work: inverter, all lights, fans, AC, and refrigerator on 12 V DC and 120 V AC. I've had the propane tanks recertified and filled. The stove burners work. I haven't checked the oven. The refrigerator lights and runs but the temperature dropped into the 50s F. Perhaps I need to be more patient. My next project is the plumbing systems. The city water inlet and a section of hose is missing, so I need to replumb this before testing the water pump and hot water heater. And I've not checked the toilet.

Thanks again everyone. I'll try to respond individually later.

Steve

 

[gbick2]

Only pop-up with hard sided bathroom!

We own our second Trailmanor 2720 - 2006 now 2013.
Women are appreciative of the solid walls in our bath.
That is why we did not buy "Hi-Lo"

Ask her