2720 vs. 3124kb??? reality of tow rating?

[desertdiva]

OK- here I am, a soccer mom that wants to give my kids the summers that I used to have. Tooling around the country in a camper and seeing everything to be seen.. without the DVD in play.

I am in the midst of purchasing a minivan. I am also in the process of purchasing a Trailmanor. I had my heart set on the 3124kb, for versatility and storage capacity. Now I am looking at minivan tow ratings, and can't find one rated over 3500lbs.

So, I am now thinking that somethings gotta give... or does it?

Does anyone know of a minivan that can be upgraded to tow more?
How disappointed will I be to give up the 3124 in lieu of the 2720 in order to scrape in under the tow capacity?
Now for my 'dumb girl that doesn't know much about cars' question... how real are those tow ratings? Can they be pushed, or will you really be entering a danger zone?
Would I be better off to give up on the minivan and move to a SUV (much less useful to me in the day to day) in order to retain the ability to pull a bigger cargo?
Any help will be appreciated.

 

[ThePair]

Very controversial, this topic.

I drive a Toyota Sienna (2006) and a 2720SL. I don't have any problems with this setup, and I know of more than a few others with the same, without any reported issues. I also have weighed my rig, and I exclusively tow in the flat midwest, so mountains and high altitude are not part of my equation.

I find that the 2720SL with the recliner removed allows for a huge amount of floorspace, relatively speaking, and that was of the highest importance to me and my family (4 yo twins + dog). So, I don't feel like I "gave anything up", rather I feel that this model is the perfect match for me. Plus, it fits in my single car garage slot, with a couple of inches to spare. I have plenty of storage space -- I am nowhere near capacity on storing things, I am at capacity on weight, though, so I don't take anything extra beyond what I've deemed as "needed for camping". Which is still a lot, mind you

Many feel the Toyotas are underrated. Other minivans are overrated for towing, it seems. Do a forum search, you'll find many threads about this topic. I personally feel that the tow rating is a classification thing, a marketing thing, more than an actual number that has concrete meaning and significance.

 

[Bill]

Your screen name says "desert". Presumably that means you live in the west, probably the southwest. Which means that the Rocky Mountains or the Sierras may be in your plans. If so, consider carefully "ThePair's" comments about flatland towing. And maybe do a Search on the term "flat" or "flatlands" or "altitude".

Bill

 

[ED-n-KEL]

I am in the midst of purchasing a minivan. I am also in the process of purchasing a Trailmanor. I had my heart set on the 3124kb, for versatility and storage capacity. Now I am looking at minivan tow ratings, and can't find one rated over 3500lbs.

So, I am now thinking that somethings gotta give... or does it?

Does anyone know of a minivan that can be upgraded to tow more?
How disappointed will I be to give up the 3124 in lieu of the 2720 in order to scrape in under the tow capacity?
Now for my 'dumb girl that doesn't know much about cars' question... how real are those tow ratings? Can they be pushed, or will you really be entering a danger zone?
Would I be better off to give up on the minivan and move to a SUV (much less useful to me in the day to day) in order to retain the ability to pull a bigger cargo?
Any help will be appreciated.

Some help..
It sounds as if you don't have a tow vehicle (TV) or a Trailmanor (TM) yet, so you can plan your moves.
If you haven't already purchased the minivan, and have your heart set on a TM, then don't buy the minivan. If you MUST have the minivan I would suggest a conventional canvas popup trailer.
If you can buy an SUV, then you can get the tow capacity (TC) you need, but beware of wheelbase lengths, especially if you're going to tow a longer TM such as the 3124. SUVs tend to have short wheelbases so keep the size of the TM reasonable.

You normally can't "upgrade" the TC of a TV once you've bought it. The TC of any given vehicle is fixed when it comes off the assembly line. Rarely can any item be added after the sale to increase TC.
You can get higher capacities of certain models (ie: F150, F250, F350), but unfortunately, this is not the case with minivans.
It's important to understand that today's minivans are nothing more than a car chassis with a van body on it. You really want something more in the "truck" family to safely tow many safe miles, especially in diverse terrain.

Another important note is to ignore the posted weights of the TMs on TM's website. These weights are empty base model and can be off from the real thing by 1000 lbs or more.

There are many posts here about your questions. If you read them, think about them, plan based on them, you will be ok. If you go out this weekend and buy a TV and a TM without doing this homework, you may not be ok.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

OK- here I am, a soccer mom that wants to give my kids the summers that I used to have. Tooling around the country in a camper and seeing everything to be seen.. without the DVD in play.

I am in the midst of purchasing a minivan. I am also in the process of purchasing a Trailmanor. I had my heart set on the 3124kb, for versatility and storage capacity. Now I am looking at minivan tow ratings, and can't find one rated over 3500lbs.

So, I am now thinking that somethings gotta give... or does it?

Does anyone know of a minivan that can be upgraded to tow more?
How disappointed will I be to give up the 3124 in lieu of the 2720 in order to scrape in under the tow capacity?
Now for my 'dumb girl that doesn't know much about cars' question... how real are those tow ratings? Can they be pushed, or will you really be entering a danger zone?
Would I be better off to give up on the minivan and move to a SUV (much less useful to me in the day to day) in order to retain the ability to pull a bigger cargo?
Any help will be appreciated.

We have a lot of diversity in how people use TrailManors and where they use them. Extreme uses mandate more tow vehicle. Tow ratings are guidelines, not laws, but towing is something to be studied and taken seriously in all tow vehicles.

I've had great experience with my Highlander, which has a little bit firmer suspension than the Sienna. We have Sienna owners here that are the best sources for telling you about Siennas, which are superb minivans.

For me, the 3124 is too heavy for most of the lighter tow vehicles because TrailManors tend to actually weigh more on the road than the brochure might have you thinking (my 3023 weighs almost 4000 pounds when I consider it lightly loaded). Here's my numbers on the truck scale:
http://www.trailmanorowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10652

Let us know if you'd like us to help with the calculations on something specific.

 

[desertdiva]

Much thanks for all the input! There are so many pieces to this puzzle, and I am trying to power through my learning curve here.

We do live in AZ, and I am hoping to drive through both mountains and flatlands... so. I will pick up the 2720, that we found a deal on. I will go ahead and buy my minivan, but hubby agreed to hang on to our ML350 SUV with a 7600 tow capacity so when we are going on extended trips, or tough terrain, we will have a more appropriate option.

Thanks again for ALL of your help- we'll be seeing you again, I am sure!

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Welcome aboard!

 

[Wavery]

We have a lot of diversity in how people use TrailManors and where they use them. Extreme uses mandate more tow vehicle. Tow ratings are guidelines, not laws, but towing is something to be studied and taken seriously in all tow vehicles.

Tow ratings are what the manufacturer of any given vehicle states is theMAXIMUM amount of weight that the vehicle that they built is rated to tow.

Not sure how that can be interpreted as a "Guideline".

I understand that some people think that these multi-billion dollar corporations take these ratings lightly and really don't know what they are doing but I can assure you that they don't take anything lightly. Anything that effects competitiveness and market share is HUGE........wait a minute let me re-state that.........HUGE!!!!!!! and is what absolutely drives the industry.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Not sure how that can be interpreted as a "Guideline".

I'm not sure how something that's based heavily on competitiveness and market share could ever be interpreted as anything but a guideline based primarily on maximizing the market and minimizing the costs and liabilities. There would be room only for only a sidelong glance at the engineering issues in that scenario.

I actually find the variables in towing to be humbling, with a lot of unknowns that make any real precision difficult. Folks who buy a big tow vehicle and think that's all it takes to solve all their towing safety problems are mistaken. If the most important thing is safety, then the most important part of towing is being able to stop before you reach the scene of the accident. Therefore the single, most important factor in towing safety is speed.

At 60mph according to the studies I've been reading and posting on the forum lately, your stopping distance would go up or down by about 4% for every mph plus or minus (it's not actually linear, it gets worse the faster you go). The difference in safety between the best tow vehicle we know about in this forum and the worst could be less than 20mph. In the middle of the range, operating a vehicle basically as it was designed and for the purposes as intended, it's going to be more about the care and caution of how you drive than it is about what you drive.

There are a lot of factors to be considered in choosing a tow vehicle, and you need to let other people make decisions that might be different from yours.

 

[ED-n-KEL]

I wouldn't disagree with the term "guideline", but I would disagree how some people interpret this and twist it to fit their needs.
Say you have a TM that weighs 4200 lbs loaded, and you are shopping for a TV. You would look at their various TCs as a "guideline" to choose which is suitable. Some TVs are rated at 3500, some at 5000, 6000, 7500, 10,000, etc. A consumer should use these figures to then say, "My trailer weighs 4200 lbs, I have four 200 lbs buddies, and about 500 lbs of gear (=5500 lbs). I should at least consider a TV with a TC of 6000 lbs or more." They should not say to themselves, "My trailer and gear weigh 5500 lbs, but I'm going to use my 3500 lbs TV, because its only a guideline."

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Ed, I don't disagree with you. If I had a 4200# trailer and a 1700# load in the tow vehicle (driver, 4 buddies, 500#), I would be looking for a vehicle that supported those numbers in it's Gross Combined Weight Ratings, Gross Axle Weight ratings, and it's Gross Vehicle Weight ratings. I would also suggest that people read and pay close attention to their manufacturers towing instructions, and I would also be extremely interested in the ownership experience of people with similar vehicles.

And I might look at all those things and decide to do this differently than someone else. For example, I might have some of those other guys drive another vehicle with another trailer so that I don't have to drive a truck to the office 200 days of the year when I'm not out with the guys.

 

[ED-n-KEL]

Ed, I don't disagree with you. If I had a 4200# trailer and a 1700# load in the tow vehicle (driver, 4 buddies, 500#), I would be looking for a vehicle that supported those numbers in it's Gross Combined Weight Ratings, Gross Axle Weight ratings, and it's Gross Vehicle Weight ratings. I would also suggest that people read and pay close attention to their manufacturers towing instructions, and I would also be extremely interested in the ownership experience of people with similar vehicles.

And I might look at all those things and decide to do this differently than someone else. For example, I might have some of those other guys drive another vehicle with another trailer so that I don't have to drive a truck to the office 200 days of the year when I'm not out with the guys.

Good advice Mr A, but I'm a firm believer in "you can't have your cake and eat it too." (Please don't take this personally.)
Basically, if people want to tow a trailer, drive thousands of miles in all kinds of weather and terrain, they should NOT consider doing it in a vehicle that's "just getting by" or in some cases "over the limit". Many people today get caught up in the "suv and crossover" market and don't realize that their vehicle, while looking like a truck, is really NOT a truck at all. No one would consider towing a TM using an Accord, Camry, Optima, etc, but in many ways when they opt for minivans and smaller SUVs/crossovers, that exactly what they are driving.
What I'm trying to say is, if you are doing a job that requires a truck, then you need a truck, not a vehicle that looks like a truck, but one that acts like a truck.
I know many people buy a TV first, then stumbled across a deal on a TM and try to make it work. But when people are in the market for a TV and know what the TM weighs, then wide safety margins and good common sense needs to kick in.
Under the current groups guideline figure of "Minimum 5000 lbs TC", my Astro would be "MARGINAL" with it's current 4500 TC.
I can bump this to 5500 by changing my rear end to 3.73's, and still would not consider using it regularly for mountainous terrain.
A 3500 TC TV should not be considered.

We use 3/4 ton full size vans at work. They have medium size V8's, have incredible towing and cargo capacities, and average 16mpg. Now I'm not saying everyone needs to go to such a vehicle, but when you consider people with minivans are getting low 20's mpg, there really isn't much more spent annually for such a huge safety margin. (Keep in mind that this is the same kind of van that my 5'2" wife came to enjoy driving.)

I think the message we should be spreading is SAFETY FIRST. Saving a few hundred dollars a year should not be priority.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Good advice Mr A, but I'm a firm believer in "you can't have your cake and eat it too." (Please don't take this personally.)
Basically, if people want to tow a trailer, drive thousands of miles in all kinds of weather and terrain, they should NOT consider doing it in a vehicle that's "just getting by" or in some cases "over the limit". Many people today get caught up in the "suv and crossover" market and don't realize that their vehicle, while looking like a truck, is really NOT a truck at all. No one would consider towing a TM using an Accord, Camry, Optima, etc, but in many ways when they opt for minivans and smaller SUVs/crossovers, that exactly what they are driving.
What I'm trying to say is, if you are doing a job that requires a truck, then you need a truck, not a vehicle that looks like a truck, but one that acts like a truck.
I know many people buy a TV first, then stumbled across a deal on a TM and try to make it work. But when people are in the market for a TV and know what the TM weighs, then wide safety margins and good common sense needs to kick in.
Under the current groups guideline figure of "Minimum 5000 lbs TC", my Astro would be "MARGINAL" with it's current 4500 TC.
I can bump this to 5500 by changing my rear end to 3.73's, and still would not consider using it regularly for mountainous terrain.
A 3500 TC TV should not be considered.

We use 3/4 ton full size vans at work. They have medium size V8's, have incredible towing and cargo capacities, and average 16mpg. Now I'm not saying everyone needs to go to such a vehicle, but when you consider people with minivans are getting low 20's mpg, there really isn't much more spent annually for such a huge safety margin. (Keep in mind that this is the same kind of van that my 5'2" wife came to enjoy driving.)

I think the message we should be spreading is SAFETY FIRST. Saving a few hundred dollars a year should not be priority.

Ed,
Safety is indeed the most important thing.

- Using the example from down your way that’s in our national news today, you need a culture of safety, not a culture of complacency. Safety does not arrive at your home in a pickup truck any more than it arrives in a UPS package. Safety is much more about you than it is about your vehicle and has nothing whatsoever to do with your rear axle ratio. I cringe when I hear people say “we don’t even know it’s back there” or “I have nothing to worry about because my truck has a 10000# tow rating.”

- Braking distance is important, but the pickup truck we were discussing in another thread today will theoretically have a less than 5% shorter braking distance than I do with a 4000# trailer (unless he chooses not to use a WDH, in which case I don’t want him to be following me) (I’ll share my calculations if you like). The following was posted by harveyrv awhile ago (http://www.trailmanorowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8709): "I tried a hard stop from 50MPH and was shocked that my front wheels skidded (note that I have never done this before). However, I then removed the spring bars and tried the same panic stop, in exactly the same speed and place. The skid was worse and I lost steering."

- But Braking distance is only a little more than half of stopping distance at 60mph. Controlling your speed is by far the better part of towing safety, as I mentioned in a previous post. Towing a full height travel trailer with a Ford van taught me to not exceed the speed limit when I’m towing, and driving a 37ft motor home taught me that I can drive further in a day at 60 than I can at 70, no matter what the speed limit is (the Highlander/TrailManor is a breeze by comparison to those vehicles).

- And, just to clear the air, there’s 4700# between the curb weight of my Highlander and its Gross Combined Weight Rating. While Toyota rated its similar vehicles as 3500 or 5000 in my model year, 4700# is the amount of room for a TrailManor when we do the math your way, and I have referenced the scale numbers earlier in this thread which prove it. My Highlander, in other words, is good enough to be rated by GM at 4700#, but not good enough to be rated 5000# by Toyota. Please also note that my vehicle gains 100# on the front axle when hitched. So far, it’s never skidded in any towing stop (thank God; not bragging, just grateful).

 

[PopBeavers]

Much thanks for all the input! There are so many pieces to this puzzle, and I am trying to power through my learning curve here.

We do live in AZ, and I am hoping to drive through both mountains and flatlands... so. I will pick up the 2720, that we found a deal on. I will go ahead and buy my minivan, but hubby agreed to hang on to our ML350 SUV with a 7600 tow capacity so when we are going on extended trips, or tough terrain, we will have a more appropriate option.

Thanks again for ALL of your help- we'll be seeing you again, I am sure!

As a point of reference, I have weighed my 2720 as 3380 pounds on the axle. I estimate the total weight to be 4,100 pounds. Perhaps a bit more.

Anyone with a heavier 2720 has a rock collection.

My point is, the high side of the weight of a fully loaded 2720 is about 4,000 pounds. It is not difficult to stay below that. For starters, I always leave home with 48 gallons of water in the TM. Just the water is nearly 400 pounds.

I take a lot of stuff.

 

[mannynanny]

Just a quick note. I have a 2007 Honda oddessey, a weight distrabution hitch with anti sway bars, And a 2008 3124kb. So far this year the wife, 5 year old daughter, and two year old twins and I went to Florida for a week and a half during Easrer break. And this summer went to Penn.,Conn.,Maine, Vermont New Hamp., New york, and back to Cincinnati, on a six week adventure. Had a trip of a lifetime, and the pulled fine. If I was in your shoes I would get the bigger camper. You can never have too much storage room. Just be sure to get a good weight distrabution hitcht.

 

[desertdiva]

Thanks Manny-
I just bought the 2720... several considerations here. First of all it was on 'Hale Sale' so if I could live with a few (or more) dents, I could get more than half off. Also, it will fit in our garage easily, so we don't have to invest in a side yard retrofit, yet. I agree that you can never have too much storage... and I am concerned about giving that up, but I figure that if I really enjoy the heck out of this thing, as planned, over the next few years, then I can trade it in for something bigger...

BTW: the Odyssey specs that I found stated a 1800 lb tow capacity, is that incorrect? I had ruled out Honda or Toyota vans as tow vehicles based on these specs, but would love to rethink them if you have better info.

 

[mannynanny]

That is incorrect. The tow capacity for my 2007 Odyssey is 3500lbs.

 

[ED-n-KEL]

Just a quick note. I have a 2007 Honda oddessey, a weight distrabution hitch with anti sway bars, And a 2008 3124kb.

Have you weighed your TM?
I'll guess that it's pushing 4500 lbs, not counting the people and cargo inside the vehicle, which would probably be over 5000 lbs total.

A major misconception is that WDH increases your tow capacity.
IT DOES NOT!
They do absolutely nothing to increase your overall tow capacity. It simply moves some weight around.
So if your TV is over it's capacity, at this point it's probably making a bad situation even worse by adding more overall weight than it's actually moving.

 

[ED-n-KEL]

BTW: the Odyssey specs that I found stated a 1800 lb tow capacity, is that incorrect? I had ruled out Honda or Toyota vans as tow vehicles based on these specs, but would love to rethink them if you have better info.

DesertDiva,

Please do your own homework on this prior to buying a TV, especially one with a 3500lb TC. You will almost certainly be immediately overloaded, unless you remove the AC, refrigerator, stove, sofa, etc.
If you can, WEIGH the trailer. I think you will find that it actually weighs some 800-1000 lbs over what the TM website says it does.
This is a very experienced and wise group of individuals, and after MUCH discussion it was determined that the MINIMUM tow capacity of your TV should be 5000 lbs. If you don't want to take our words for it.... weigh the trailer.

 

[scrubjaysnest-TMO]

I try to shoot for a TV tow rating of twice the max trailer weight that way I have a better chance at getting both stopped.