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  #11  
Old 11-28-2004, 10:38 PM
RockyMtnRay RockyMtnRay is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 823
Thumbs up Tundras RULE!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomnet
Well, that was actually pretty exciting - what guy doesn't like the
prospect of blowing off the competition at 12,000 feet. Must have
been a thrill for the Spitfire and Mustang pilots facing their ME-109
enemies at 30,000+ ft in models with their reduction gearing, props,
boost, etc. all dialed in - for bigger stakes though. Excuse the digress
but what about super or turbo boost as then one may be able to
run at lower RPM where the stock Tundra exhaust manifold, muffler
would suffice. Just a thought.
Tom

Just starting to look at TM's for my 2003 Tundra (Stepside) and thinking
about skiing.
Yay..another Tundra owner!

Glad you enjoyed my tales of conquest when towing a TM at flying altitudes.

Now, as for turbocharging or supercharging the Tundra engine. It's possible but you've to be extermely careful about doing it when the goal is increased towing power. The problem is towing demands boost durations measured in minutes (or hours) whereas a short blast of acceleration has boost time that's less than 10 to 15 seconds.

Firstly, totally and absolutely forget the TRD (Eaton) supercharger that used to be available through Toyota dealers and was warranted by Toyota if dealer installed. For one thing, TRD no longer sells these...probably because semi-confirmed rumor has it that Toyota was eating a heckuva lot of warranty claims for engines where the pistons and/or connecting rods had made an explosive exit through the side of the block. For another, this unit had no real intercooling...it used extra fuel injectors in the supercharger housing to spray fuel into the plenum in a not very successful attempt to reduce inlet air temperatures. Most of the time this worked for very short periods (under 10 seconds) to keep the engine from experiencing catastrophic detonation (the cause of those grenading pistons and C-rods) but not always.

There are two aftermarket forced air units available for Tundras...one is a strange turbocharger made by Squires Turbo System (STS) and the other is a centrifugal supercharger from Speed of Sound (SOS) . Both run around $4000 (plus installation...around another $500 to $1000), both will likely totally kill your engine and drivetrain warranty, and neither has much in the way of solid documented user experience at TundraSolutions .

The STS turbo is very weird because it is waaaay downstream (actually under the truck) where the exhaust gasses have cooled enough to lose a lot (most) of their heat energy. Worse, its air intake is also under the truck where it will suck up all kinds of water and muck through the not-so-great K&N filter. I personally would not touch this system with a 10 foot pole.

The SOS Supercharger looks promising to me...it's properly intercooled and seems to have the right components. But AFAIK, no one has yet to install one and provide a detailed report back to the rest of us at TundraSolutions. But if I were to choose a supercharger and had no worries about being needing to pay for an engine and/or tranny replacement out of my pocket (about $8000 and $3000 respectively), this would be the one I'd go with. Potentially very good performance gains but also with potentially very high risk of engine/transmission damage.

In the meantime, the proven (and very low risk) mods that I have done...headers, low restriction muffler, and changing to 4.30 gears...have given me about the same usable torque increases (~25%) as I would have gotten from the very high risk forced induction solutions. Furthermore, I've gotten those gains for about $2000 less than any of the forced induction solutions would have cost if installation is figured in.

And there is still one more fairly low risk performance enhancement (a Unichip piggyback ECU) that I could install. The Unichip gets its performance gains (roughly 7 to 10%) by running the engine on much more aggressive timing maps and a much leaner (12:1 Fuel/Air instead of 10.5:1 F/A) fuel mix when the engine is in open-loop conditions (i.e. no feedback from the O2 sensors). Essentially the Unichip is getting these gains by cutting into the big safety margin that Toyota programmed into the stock ECU. One TundraSolutions member who does serious towing with a Tundra recently installed a Unichip...if he has no problems in this coming summer's towing season I may also put a Unichip in my Tundra. However, I'm also going to have to assess whether or not I really need to spend yet another $900 or so...it may be that the exhaust mods and regearing have already given me enough oomph for a great towing experience at flying altitudes. But then, I really hate to leave more power just laying on the table.
__________________
Ray

I use my TM as a base camp for hiking, kayaking, mountain biking, and climbing Colorado's 14ers


The Trailer: 2002 TM Model 2720SL ( Mods: Solar Panels (170 Watts), Dual T-105 Batteries, Electric Tongue Jack, Side AC, Programmable Thermostat, Doran TP Monitor System)

The Tow Vehicle: 2003 Toyota Tundra V8 SR5 4X4 w/Tow Package (Towing & Performance Mods: JBA Headers, Gibson Muffler, 4.30 gears, Michelin LTX M/S Tires, Prodigy Brake Controller, Transmission Temperature Gauge)


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  #12  
Old 11-30-2004, 01:09 AM
tomnet
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Cool Quest for Fire

First, it seems a shame to truncate your very entertaining post, so
leaving it below for reference, let me say it's obvious that forced air
has occurred to you, too. Look, I'm not interested in blasting away
for hours at a time. I don't even want to run over 60 mph - I'd just like
to recreate 14.7 lbs. per inch and let those 32 valves do their thing -
is that asking too much of a well balanced motor? Why would pistons
want to fly while running under the rev limiter? There is one, no? I'm
not trying to re-create hell on earth inside those 8 chambers, just
the normal, well radiated burn pattern registered with the Calif.
AQMD (smog police) at sea level here in Calif. (or is it done in
Indiana?). Well, maybe a wee bit more, to keep up with those 49-state
TV's.

But I hear you - at the price, without Toyota standing behind it's probably better to get a killer sound system and forget the 6 and 7 liter rigs thunder by. Unless.

Question. Does Toyota raise the axle ratio with the towing package?
Question. Is there a discussion of generators on this board (I'm lazy).
Question. Does de-badging, "tonneauing" the TV increase tow capacity?
Question. What did Toyota do to boost hp to 282 vs. 240 last year?
Question. Why do we stick with these little Swiss Army knives?
Question. Why not just forget this nonsense get a big-liter Ford?
I know - same reason you don't take a Ski-Do to the summit!

One or two answers is all I will deserve!

Thanks for all the in-flight entertainment, Ray.

Tom

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockyMtnRay
Yay..another Tundra owner!

Glad you enjoyed my tales of conquest when towing a TM at flying altitudes.

Now, as for turbocharging or supercharging the Tundra engine. It's possible but you've to be extermely careful about doing it when the goal is increased towing power. The problem is towing demands boost durations measured in minutes (or hours) whereas a short blast of acceleration has boost time that's less than 10 to 15 seconds.

Firstly, totally and absolutely forget the TRD (Eaton) supercharger that used to be available through Toyota dealers and was warranted by Toyota if dealer installed. For one thing, TRD no longer sells these...probably because semi-confirmed rumor has it that Toyota was eating a heckuva lot of warranty claims for engines where the pistons and/or connecting rods had made an explosive exit through the side of the block. For another, this unit had no real intercooling...it used extra fuel injectors in the supercharger housing to spray fuel into the plenum in a not very successful attempt to reduce inlet air temperatures. Most of the time this worked for very short periods (under 10 seconds) to keep the engine from experiencing catastrophic detonation (the cause of those grenading pistons and C-rods) but not always.

There are two aftermarket forced air units available for Tundras...one is a strange turbocharger made by Squires Turbo System (STS) and the other is a centrifugal supercharger rom Speed of Sound (SOS) . Both run around $4000 (plus installation...around another $500 to $1000), both will likely totally kill your engine and drivetrain warranty, and neither has much in the way of solid documented user experience at TundraSolutions .

The STS turbo is very weird because it is waaaay downstream (actually under the truck) where the exhaust gasses have cooled enough to lose a lot (most) of their heat energy. Worse, its air intake is also under the truck where it will suck up all kinds of water and muck through the not-so-great K&N filter. I personally would not touch this system with a 10 foot pole.

The SOS Supercharger looks promising to me...it's properly intercooled and seems to have the right components. But AFAIK, no one has yet to install one and provide a detailed report back to the rest of us at TundraSolutions. But if I were to choose a supercharger and had no worries about being needing to pay for an engine and/or tranny replacement out of my pocket (about $8000 and $3000 respectively), this would be the one I'd go with. Potentially very good performance gains but also with potentially very high risk of engine/transmission damage.

In the meantime, the proven (and very low risk) mods that I have done...headers, low restriction muffler, and changing to 4.30 gears...have given me about the same usable torque increases (~25%) as I would have gotten from the very high risk forced induction solutions. Furthermore, I've gotten those gains for about $2000 less than any of the forced induction solutions would have cost if installation is figured in.

And there is still one more fairly low risk performance enhancement (a Unichip piggyback ECU) that I could install. The Unichip gets its performance gains (roughly 7 to 10%) by running the engine on much more aggressive timing maps and a much leaner (12:1 Fuel/Air instead of 10.5:1 F/A) fuel mix when the engine is in open-loop conditions (i.e. no feedback from the O2 sensors). Essentially the Unichip is getting these gains by cutting into the big safety margin that Toyota programmed into the stock ECU. One TundraSolutions member who does serious towing with a Tundra recently installed a Unichip...if he has no problems in this coming summer's towing season I may also put a Unichip in my Tundra. However, I'm also going to have to assess whether or not I really need to spend yet another $900 or so...it may be that the exhaust mods and regearing have already given me enough oomph for a great towing experience at flying altitudes. But then, I really hate to leave more power just laying on the table.
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  #13  
Old 11-30-2004, 10:01 AM
RockyMtnRay RockyMtnRay is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 823
Talking You've got questions, I've got answers

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomnet
First, it seems a shame to truncate your very entertaining post, so
leaving it below for reference, let me say it's obvious that forced air
has occurred to you, too. Look, I'm not interested in blasting away
for hours at a time. I don't even want to run over 60 mph - I'd just like
to recreate 14.7 lbs. per inch and let those 32 valves do their thing -
is that asking too much of a well balanced motor? Why would pistons
want to fly while running under the rev limiter? There is one, no? I'm
not trying to re-create hell on earth inside those 8 chambers, just
the normal, well radiated burn pattern registered with the Calif.
AQMD (smog police) at sea level here in Calif. (or is it done in
Indiana?). Well, maybe a wee bit more, to keep up with those 49-state
TV's.
Yes, the iForce engine does have a rev limiter. The likely reason those pistons and rods made an exit through the side of the motor was catastrophic detonation (a really, really bad case of "knock"). The cause of that was most likely an extremely lean fuel mixture caused by excessively hot intake air. As mentioned above, the huge weakness of the TRD blower is that it does not have an intercooler...hence intake air can under certain conditions exceed 250 degrees. Furthermore, there are a number of disparaging comments on TundraSolutions about the quality of TRD's programming of the supplemental ("piggyback") ECU they provide with the supercharger. For one thing, this ECU is programmed to provide extra (cooling) fuel into the blower plenum via the 9th (all years) and 10th ('03s and later) injectors based only on inputs from the throttle position sensor...it does not monitor actual boost level or intake air temp after the blower as it should for determining the amount of extra fuel to inject. Several guys have called it a "piggycrap" ECU and quite frankly I think they're pretty close to the mark. Methinks that TRD stuff in general is grossly overrated and hugely overpriced.
Quote:
But I hear you - at the price, without Toyota standing behind it's probably better to get a killer sound system and forget the 6 and 7 liter rigs thunder by. Unless.

Question. Does Toyota raise the axle ratio with the towing package?
Unfortunately no. Based on my preliminary (non-towing) experiences after regearing my truck from the stock 3.91 ratio to a 4.30 gearset, Toyota definitely should have made 4.30 gears part of the towing package. The performance difference is large (it lets the engine run at peak torque at towing speeds); yet the effect on gas mileage seems miniscule (perhaps .5 mpg).
Quote:
Question. Is there a discussion of generators on this board (I'm lazy).
Yes. Use the search feature. However, not many folks have reported buying generators. One person had a genset mounted on his TM's hitch...good results but exceedingly high hitch weight. For portable generators, the consensus is to get one of the ultra quiet Honda models (EU series).

However, you really only need a generator if you must run the AC while camping. For lighting and other 12 volt power usage, solar panels are a far better solution. Several of us (Caver, Rotor_Wash, Bill, myself) have installed panels and are extremely happy with the results.
Quote:
Question. Does de-badging, "tonneauing" the TV increase tow capacity?
Debadging...no (though it does reduce waxing time ). I'm leaving my Tundra fully badged so there's no question in the minds of other truck brand owners that they were passed like they were standing still by a Toyota!

Tonneauing actually decreases tow capacity because it adds substantial weight to the truck (200 to 400 lbs depending on brand and model). With the paltry 11,800 GCWR a Tundra is pretty limited on tow capacity to begin with and every ounce you add to the weight of the truck is an ounce less towing capacity. A tonneau might slightly improve towing gas mileage though.
Quote:
Question. What did Toyota do to boost hp to 282 vs. 240 last year?
They re-engineered the head (and ECU) to have variable valve timing. That (in conjunction with a higher redline RPM) allowed an increase in top end horsepower. However, peak torque...a far, far more important number for towing than peak horsepower...increased by only 5 ft-lbs.
Quote:
Question. Why do we stick with these little Swiss Army knives?
Question. Why not just forget this nonsense get a big-liter Ford?
I know - same reason you don't take a Ski-Do to the summit!
Welllll...in my case at the time I got my Tundra there were only two trucks that would fit in my kinda smallish garage...the Tundra and the Dodge Dakota. After test driving both, it was obvious the Tundra was far more refined and worth the extra $3 grand. Plus Toyota's reliability record is far better than any of the domestics. I was also able to buy my Tundra for almost $4000 under Invoice (not MSRP but Invoice...about $9000 below sticker). With that kind of upfront savings, I didn't mind at all spending $3000 or so on "tweaks" that have raised the performance to a level that meets my rather demanding needs.
Quote:
One or two answers is all I will deserve!

Thanks for all the in-flight entertainment, Ray.

Tom
Glad to provide some joy!
__________________
Ray

I use my TM as a base camp for hiking, kayaking, mountain biking, and climbing Colorado's 14ers


The Trailer: 2002 TM Model 2720SL ( Mods: Solar Panels (170 Watts), Dual T-105 Batteries, Electric Tongue Jack, Side AC, Programmable Thermostat, Doran TP Monitor System)

The Tow Vehicle: 2003 Toyota Tundra V8 SR5 4X4 w/Tow Package (Towing & Performance Mods: JBA Headers, Gibson Muffler, 4.30 gears, Michelin LTX M/S Tires, Prodigy Brake Controller, Transmission Temperature Gauge)


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  #14  
Old 01-09-2005, 09:25 PM
APerkins
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Which Model

Quote:
Originally Posted by CC_Turtle
Hi,

I just upgraded my tacoma to a tundra and what a difference! you will be happy with the tundra's towing abilities.

Teresa
Teresa,

Which model of TM do you pull?

ALAN
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  #15  
Old 01-10-2005, 08:18 AM
CC_Turtle
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Posts: n/a
Default

Hi Alan,

we pull a 2720SL

Teresa
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