And now for something really off topic...

[BrucePerens]

I have been on the faculty of three colleges and other stuff you can read about in Wikipedia. My public school didn't even bother to teach me to read, as I was considered to be "retarded" due to a speech impediment. Fortunately my parents got a lawyer. But I am not a product of formal education, and probably am better off for not being one.

The schools teach the wrong things and simply perpetuate another generation of wage-slaves who can't figure anything new out, but the ones who were "good students" can sure do their arithmetic! Spelling bees are perhaps the greatest demonstration of misapplication of education.

Students should not be made into little flesh adding machines, but should learn the principles of math and science so that they can apply them when necessary. There is no merit to memorizing something you can get from a book or a machine. There is merit to being able to use what you know to solve a problem, without having the process explained to you first.

Look at any primary school today, no matter how good, and you will see students being taught algebra without first being taught to program! What is the POINT of algebra if you can't progam? You can't APPLY it and you are so powerless to use it that it's 100 times harder than it should be. Ask the teachers why kids aren't taught to program first, as I have, they say it's a good question and they have no answer. It's like being taught Russian grammar without ever being taught Russian vocabulary, so you can pass a test afterward, but never speak the language.

[Bailey'sMom]

Originally Posted by BrucePerens

, but should learn the principles of math and science so that they can apply them when necessary.

There is no merit to memorizing something you can get from a book or a machine. There is merit to being able to use what you know to solve a problem, without having the process explained to you first.

So true. I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed but I sure can work things out logically. I can apply my knowledge to different situations and work my way through to a good conclusion. It’s amazing how many people are book smart but cant find their way out of a paper bag.....

[Shane826]

What do you mean by programming in relation to algebra?

[BrucePerens]

Originally Posted by Shane826

What do you mean by programming in relation to algebra?

There are a lot of elements of algebra which seem quite abstract until computer programming makes them concrete, for example variables and functions. Indeed, if you can teach a plotting API, pretty much every mathematical operation becomes more concrete once you can program it, for example look at the way this links the sine and cosine functions to the appropriate waveforms, with the proper phase offset from each other, and to a point on a rotating wheel. But probably the most important thing you learn is that any algorithm you learn can be embedded in a function and then becomes very simple to reuse, potentially for the rest of your life. I gained applications for all of these mathematical things when I got to work on computer graphics and signal processing, but algebra was very abstract and not terribly useful until then. The actual programming is not rocket science and kids are taught "turtle graphics" today which would render most functions. Most people would learn better if they learned simple software applications of the mathematics they were learning.

[Larryjb]

The last few posts exemplify just how important it is to not swing too far to one side or the other of pedagogical techniques. It is important to experience concrete applications to the abstract (such as algebra), but as teachers, we mustn't forget the importance of memory.

My reference to the slide rule was more towards young and upcoming scientists/engineers. Many of my students have never seen an analog scale as they all have digital watches, many teachers use digital mass scales, and with the push for more technology yet, they will be seeing digital motion sensors, etc etc. In fact, the digital age can make what should be a concrete example more abstract.

Going back to my comment about the Trailmanor being designed using a slide rule, check out this page for a reminder:
http://www.woodallscm.com/2001/10/trailmanor-inc-2/

Hulsey built his first "Trailmanor" in the early 1970's. He was probably designing it in the 1960's. I'm sure, for his day job, he had and knew how to use a slide rule. That's why I think the TM was originally designed using a slide rule. By the time he was designing the version for the consumer market, he may very well have been using an electronic calculator.

[tentcamper]

Just about all engineering was done with slide ruler until somewhere in the early 70's and 1980's. The exception was NASA and aerospace companies, which had some limited use of computers back into the 50's and CAD design tools.

So the next time you are crossing a bridge built before 1970, inside a building build before mid 1970, you are counting on an engineer sliding his ruler correctly and guessing at the fractional distance.

[tentcamper]

Originally Posted by BrucePerens

I have been on the faculty of three colleges and other stuff you can read about in Wikipedia. My public school didn't even bother to teach me to read, as I was considered to be "retarded" due to a speech impediment. Fortunately my parents got a lawyer. But I am not a product of formal education, and probably am better off for not being one.

The schools teach the wrong things and simply perpetuate another generation of wage-slaves who can't figure anything new out, but the ones who were "good students" can sure do their arithmetic! Spelling bees are perhaps the greatest demonstration of misapplication of education.

Students should not be made into little flesh adding machines, but should learn the principles of math and science so that they can apply them when necessary. There is no merit to memorizing something you can get from a book or a machine. There is merit to being able to use what you know to solve a problem, without having the process explained to you first.

Look at any primary school today, no matter how good, and you will see students being taught algebra without first being taught to program! What is the POINT of algebra if you can't progam? You can't APPLY it and you are so powerless to use it that it's 100 times harder than it should be. Ask the teachers why kids aren't taught to program first, as I have, they say it's a good question and they have no answer. It's like being taught Russian grammar without ever being taught Russian vocabulary, so you can pass a test afterward, but never speak the language.

Bruce I think programming is a very good way to learn a subject because you have to learn the subject and rules to program it. But I think there are many other ways to learn a subject, but you have to be interested in learning the subject. That is the problem. To many teachers its a job, there are very few gifted at teaching. I think too many teachers were in the 10th or 11th grade and trying to decide a career and like the idea of 3 months off a year.

Many teachers today don't generate interest and/or make it fun to learn. I can look back at my education which included grad school. There were only a handful of teachers that generated that interest and I would consider a true teachers. I remember their names. The other I could not tell you their names. I was lucky, I had a curiosity for science and had my curiosity encouraged by some very bright people that were family, friends of the family or friends.

[Larryjb]

Originally Posted by tentcamper

...
So the next time you are crossing a bridge built before 1970, inside a building build before mid 1970, you are counting on an engineer sliding his ruler correctly and guessing at the fractional distance.

Nowadays, when you cross a bridge built in the last 30-40 years, you are counting on the engineer to be tapping the correct buttons on the calculator, not press a 2 instead of the 5 in the exponent of the exponential notation, and have a weight limit off by a factor of a thousand. Those good with the slide rule would spot that error of magnitude straight away because keeping magnitude straight would be second nature on a slide rule. My students, even the best, tend to trust the "blackbox" calculator too much.

Then, there is guessing at how many sig figs in an answer that contains 8 or more digits ona calculator. If you mess up and think you have more sig figs than you should, you can have disastrous results. Truncation errors caused a computer to miscalculate an anti scud to miss an incoming scud, killing American soldiers. These errors could occur with the slide rule too, but I think many people rely too much on the calculator answer.

I was not brought up on the slide rule, but I envy the second nature sense of numbers my elders had.

[Larryjb]

Originally Posted by tentcamper

...Many teachers today don't generate interest and/or make it fun to learn. I can look back at my education which included grad school. There were only a handful of teachers that generated that interest and I would consider a true teachers. I remember their names. The other I could not tell you their names. I was lucky, I had a curiosity for science and had my curiosity encouraged by some very bright people that were family, friends of the family or friends.

As a teacher, I am plagued by the politics of the profession, students who just want an easy A so they can get into university. I know this has always been the case, but I have seen it all get worse in the iphone/smartphone era. When I was confronted with a tough problem, I took a long walk and let my brain muse over it. I could usually have that good feeling of success when I got home and figured it out. Now my students plug into their "soothers", the dumbphone.

[kempert]

Larryjb -

You hit it right on the head when you mentioned "smart" phones. I work with high school student/athletes in an environment where many of them are on track to work in the medical field (doctors, research scientists, etc.). I thought it was just me being an oldster (69) when I thought they seemed to be getting "dumber" in recent years. Young professionals (early 30s) are telling me that the phones have led to young people not thinking. "When confronted with any problem or question, they just reach for their phone. We have an "electronic free" zone for about two hours each day. If they try to use one during our time, I take it (after one warning) and just start "messing" with it. The word has spread and we have no problem. Now, if I can only figure out a way to stop my co-worker (23) from constantly using her phone during our time.