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Old 08-22-2007, 02:08 PM   #11
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We have a 2000 GMC Jimmy - similar to Leon's Chevy Trailblazer. We both have had good luck towing 2619 TMs. We've towed ours from Little Rock, AR to our home, to the WA coast, to the east coast - ID, MT, ND, SD, IL, IN, MI, PA, NJ, DE, WA DC, VA, NC, SC, TN, KY, NM, UT, CO, WY, and back and averaged 15 MPG. The only time we overheated was my fault- sitting in a parking lot in Farmington, NM with the air conditioner running. That was DUMB! I have towed with Fords, Chevys, a Mazda, an Oldsmobile, a Cadillac, and a couple of Subarus. The ones I would not want again are the Cadillac and the Mazda - it pinged on regular even without a load. There was no way to change the timing. The Cadillac was a pile of overpriced junk. We towed a small tent trailer with it to NM and AZ and had to get the trans rebuilt when we got back. I will never own another Cadillac but that's just my opinion. Yours may vary.
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Old 08-22-2007, 03:02 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Geoffrey Card View Post
If you are happy with the 80% rule then that is your decision but as an engineer I can assure you that you are simply adding to the very adequate safety margins that have already been calculated into the design of your vehicle.
I will agree with this statement to a point. But, the point is undefined.

If the factory published spec if for 3500 pounds how much more can I carry without voiding the warranty?

If I am 5 pounds overweight and the brakes fail I would not expect much of an issue with a warranty claim. If I am 2000 pounds over the limit I would expect the factory to deny the claim as I was clearly at fault.

If I am overweight, and the brakes fail, and an accident occurs and someone dies I really don't want my attorney explaining to the jury that the factory has an undocumented margin of safety built into the vehicle. I doubt seriously that my attorney would be able to get an engineer from the factory to agree in a trial that it was perfectly safe.

If you were to somehow determine that Ford has a margin of error built in of 30 percent, can you assume that GM and Toyota have at least the same 30 percent? How do you look it up, or do you just guess?

I rolled a Jeep CJ3B once because I overloaded it. Luckily my 4 passengers and myself did not get hurt. I don't ever want to experience risk of injury to my friends and family again because I exceeded the factory specifications by just a little.
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Old 08-22-2007, 06:21 PM   #13
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I am not suggesting that you exceed the manufactuers published towing limits. I am saying that if the published limit for a specific vehicle is 5,000lbs then you can safely tow up to that limit not 80% of that limit i.e. 4,000lbs. And in the example of a Toyota Highlander up to 3,500lbs not 80% of that- 2,800lbs. What I am confident in saying is that in setting the stated towing limit the manufactuer would have included a substancial safety margin into his calculation to be sure that the towing limits could be utalized to the maximum with complete safety.
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Old 08-22-2007, 07:14 PM   #14
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I am not suggesting that you exceed the manufactuers published towing limits. I am saying that if the published limit for a specific vehicle is 5,000lbs then you can safely tow up to that limit not 80% of that limit i.e. 4,000lbs. And in the example of a Toyota Highlander up to 3,500lbs not 80% of that- 2,800lbs. What I am confident in saying is that in setting the stated towing limit the manufactuer would have included a substancial safety margin into his calculation to be sure that the towing limits could be utalized to the maximum with complete safety.
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I can agree with that. From a pure safety point of view, I agree that it is safe to tow all the way up to the limit. It may not be prudent, but it is safe.

When going up a very steep road being loaded to the max will only result in low speeds. On a freeway the minimum speed is 45 mph. I wish they would enforce that. If you can not tow up the hill at 45 mph then you should not be on that road. Please go around another way. Especially when it is only one lane and no one can pass.

When driving down very steep narrow roads in a panic stop situation I will always prefer a vehicle with a very long wheel base, a frame and large brakes. The longest downhill road that I drive on is solid curves for 14 miles. Even in first gear using engine compression I must use the brakes. If you will never be in mountains then this is not a concern for you.

But, I am still concerned about wear and tear and reliability. Since I keep my vehicles for 200,000 miles and require that the only time that they are in the shop is for scheduled maintenance. In my entire lifetime I have never had a reason to perform a repair while away from home, with the exception of one flat tire, last year. I just have a gut feeling that consistently towing at the maximum weight rating will contribute to premature unexpected equipment failures

Each of us has their own comfort level. One breakdown on the road and I don't think DW would go with me anymore.

I am fortunate to have a job that pays well enough that I can purchase any TV that I want. And the cost of gasoline is not my biggest budget item. Certainly total cost of ownership must be considered when making any significant purchase.
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Old 08-22-2007, 08:12 PM   #15
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I need to type a complete epic of our trip from Arkansas to California in our 2003 Dodge Grand Caravan and 2004 TM 3023.

I been working six days a week at the Chicken plant so I have not been real active on the web as of late. They say... we will be off this weekend so maybe I feel more like typing.

I enjoy reading folks thoughts and concerns. All of which are within my mind. Tow capacity of vehicles are quite a brain tease. I think the mathimatical equation must pivits on how fast you want to go, how steep the climb, how warm the air temperture might be. Money is the limiting factor.

Bottom line, we pulled the TM fully loaded with clothen, food, dishes and all sort of stuff for the four of us. And a cooler full of ice cold diet sam choice cokes from Wal-Mart. 4k if us friends will tell the truth. And a box of rocks from the mountains. We pulled it up Wolf Pass in Colorado. It was cold that afternoon, low 40's, snow under the trees. Most likly the steepest grade allowed by practical road builders. I creeped at 25mph's for a few minutes. Along with some tractor trailers. The van wanted to over heat, the needle passed the mid point,no steam. So I stopped twice on a pull off and opened the hood. But, We made it with no mechenical problems. Just a math problem to live with. Another TM with a larger TV made the same trip that day with us. Their rig struggled also, maybe not as much as us. They had put more cash on the table than I for thier TV. They where so fun to visit with. Really nice folks. The pass wasn't the topic of disscussion as we had both made the trip in good order. But the function of our refrigerater. It seems that thay just donot work well in high altitudes. I was sad that my suger free icecream bars were melted between camp sites. Once we got back to Oklahoma this wasnot a problem. I think that is why God vacations in Arkansas and not out west.

I know a Grand Caravan rated at 3k pull capacity can work.


We stopped twice at a Camper World and tried to find something to buy for our TM. We toured the huge GreyHound campers. Oh my! I want one of those. How do folks come up with that amount of fun money...I want to know....I want to know.

Really, I will always be found happy in our TM.

We saw A Bear in Yosemite. Really...as we started to leave the picnic area it walked over to the table we had eaten at. It had a tag on it's ear. My kids cried as this bears will get trapped a second time, surely. Saddly this will end the bear's life. So, please be bear safe....don't feed the bears so they will not see people as a source of food. This bear acted as if folks had thrown hot dogs at it. I type this for the tears my 16 year old daughter lost at Yosemite.
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Old 08-23-2007, 05:23 AM   #16
Keith Wire
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Wayne, I'm with you. I always error on the "bigger is better side." Therefore I made sure my TV could pull 7,000 lbs even though we bought a 2720SL.

I have always been that way… I bought a bigger generator for our house, a more powerful PC, and a stronger hydraulic jack; all because I wanted to be more safe than sorry.

Even when I was young and didn’t have much I would prefer to save up and buy the best, because I knew I wouldn’t be happy with less.

However, the majority dictates that "price" rules instead of "quality" or "safety".

Over the years I have learned it is OK for me to be in the minority. I am happy with my choices, just as those who choose the other path.

Keith


EDIT!!!

After re-reading this I realized I might come across as being arrogant. I don’t mean it that way at all. It is just that people are different, and we each have to determine what is the best for ourselves.

The issue here is not if you can tow with a TV rated at 5,000 lbs., we know it can be done. Some will do it and never have a problem. Some will have a problem though, and I just hope I am not in their way when they do…
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Old 08-23-2007, 09:14 AM   #17
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I have been participating in this thread with great interest, and have read similar threads on other forums with great interest. There seems to be two camps with strong opinions, and I think I am beginning to see a pattern.

I have been diagnosed with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. I also am an admitted perfectionist. I am willing to spend an above average amount of money and a great deal of my time it implementing the perfect solution to a problem. According to my doctor, this is a common trait among programmers and engineers.

I don't know if, and don't want to accuse, any one else of having OCD, but it seems pretty clear that some of us think differently than others. OCD would be one explanation.

Some seem to be very focused on the lowest cost TV that can just barely tow a particular trailer versus what is the best TV, all factors considered.

Some people replace their cars more often than other. I have one friend that has never bought tires in his life. When the factory tires need to be replaced he trades in his car for a new one. I keep my cars and trucks for 200k miles.

I can see that anyone that intends to replace their TV in a few years has no interest on wear and tear causing premature failure so far down the road that they will no longer be the owner. For me it is very important.

I bought my first camping equipment in 1974. Stove, lantern, ice chest, tent, sleeping bags, etc. The ice chest wore out about 5 years ago but I still use the rest of the equipment every year. When I bought it I bought it to last a lifetime. This is just the way I am.

I have been in the same house since 1986. My neighbors have frequently teased me about how long I keep my cars. Recently they have started to mention that they think I have spent a lot less money on cars than they have over that period of time. They no longer think I am crazy.

So it just seems to me that the two different camps run something along the lines of:

1. OCD vs. non OCD
2. Long term perspective vs. short term
3. Quality oriented vs. cost oriented
4. Engineering background vs. non engineering background
5. Perfectionist vs. close enough for who it is for

Neither is right or wrong.

I think that my main point is that no one should be towing anything that is not safe. The closer you are to towing at the limit the more important it is to weigh it all so you don't have to guess if you are overweight or not.

It is clearly possible to overload a TM 2720 without trying very hard. I have loaded and weighed mine, so I know how close I am go going over the factory spec.

And as for the comments that the manufacturer always builds in a safety margin, I stick to the point I made earlier. I have no doubt that there is an extra margin, but it is not documented and it is not the same for every product. So the consumer has to guess.

Not to slam the TM, but I would be more comfortable being overweight by 20 percent in my 1500HD than I would be if I overloaded my TM by the same 20 percent.

I plan on owning and using my TM for at least 20 years. This is why we bought new and why I try to be sure I do not overload it.
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Old 08-23-2007, 09:33 AM   #18
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I have been trying to present a balanced picture to the new owner who was intersted in towing his TM2720 with a lighter and more fuel efficient vehicle. Two years ago when I was at this stage of ownership I was nearly put of the whole venture by comments in this forum which tried to make me believe that I would have to purchase a large V8 truck to safely tow a 2619 or 2720; thank heavans that I also heard from owners who safely pulled these same TM's with Toyota V6 Highlanders and similar mid sized SUV's. The smaller TM's equate with the European two wheeled caravans (trailers), my own considerable experience in Europe towing caravans with 4 and 6 cylinder sedans made me believe that the smaller TM could safely be towed with a Highlander which is a larger, stronger and more powerful than many European vehicles.

Whilst it may have been acceptable in the past to own and operate oversized and very thirsty vehicles I would suggest that in this age of global warming and dwindling resources it is time for some rethinking. The Trailmanor fits in well with the current trend to introduce new technologies and with these to design much more fuel efficient vehicles with considerably lower enviromentally damaging emissions. I would be intersted in the TM manufactuers comments and what their policy is going to be to future product design in this rapidly changing world.

The Higlander handled the journey to Alaska with ease and returned just over 18mpg for 9,300+ miles.
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Old 08-23-2007, 10:53 AM   #19
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There are those (including Wayne and me) who wear both a belt and suspenders with their elastic-waist pants and there are those who don't:-). That difference in personality is often seen here and likely accounts for the different advice given. I've been on both sides of this discussion having towed a 2619 with first a minivan and now a moderate-size truck. Both work and We've never had an ounce of trouble towing with either. Others may may not always be as lucky.

I do feel a need to point out that over the years there have been three accidents reported here and, if my memory serves me correctly, all involved mid-size SUVs. One was from over-correcting after drifting off the hwy, one was caused by one or more blown tires on the TV and I forget what happened with the third. That's not many accidents considering the likely towing miles we accumulate so I guess my point is that we are accepting increased risk should an extreme situation occur every time we hook any size trailer behind any size vehicle. What is acceptable risk depends on our tolerence for such things.
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Old 08-23-2007, 11:40 AM   #20
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Shucks Wayne, and I thought you were an OK guy...

I too am an Electrical Engineer and a programmer, even though we own a retail hardware store. The difference between us is that I don't doctor and I'll never admit to being an OCD.

Back on topic!!!!

I've been reading this forum for over a year and have read most of the old threads too. This topic comes up again and again. Often times people take it personally when it really wasn't meant to be that way. Nobody here has any agenda and we are all just trying to help.

I suggest we try to put together both philosophies into one document and post it in the "TrailManor information you won't find anywhere else" forum and when it comes up we just refer people there.

Bill are you there??? How does that sound? We would need to word it such that there is no liability to the Forum, but I think it could be done...

Keith
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