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Old 04-28-2022, 05:55 PM   #1
mikegascon1
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Default Inverter wiring for solar

I am still at the thinking stage for solar. If I were to install a solar setup up, I would definitely want to install an inverter so my AC would work. How does that get wired in? To the power box under the shower? I assume they come with detailed instructions? I am not an electrical whiz bang and this is stumping me. I assume I am over thinking it and it is straight forward. Right?
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Old 04-28-2022, 06:27 PM   #2
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Mike -

I am not an expert, but you will hear from the experts shortly.

The short answer is that the solar panels charge your batteries, and the batteries send DC power to the inverter. The inverter converts the DC power from the batteries to AC power, which is then used to power up the appliances and outlets. The air conditioner uses a rather enormous amount of power, so unless you have a LOT of batteries and a LOT of panels, running the AC may not be feasible.

As a quick benchmark, it is barely possible to run the air conditioner from a 2000 watt generator. Do you envision having well over 2000 watts of panels?

And now, over to the experts !!

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Old 04-29-2022, 12:23 AM   #3
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Mike -

I am not an expert, but you will hear from the experts shortly.

The short answer is that the solar panels charge your batteries, and the batteries send DC power to the inverter. The inverter converts the DC power from the batteries to AC power, which is then used to power up the appliances and outlets. The air conditioner uses a rather enormous amount of power, so unless you have a LOT of batteries and a LOT of panels, running the AC may not be feasible.

As a quick benchmark, it is barely possible to run the air conditioner from a 2000 watt generator. Do you envision having well over 2000 watts of panels?

And now, over to the experts !!

Bill
Bill pretty well summed it all up. Running the AC from the inverter for more than 5-10 minutes a day is simply not feasible unless you cover every inch of the trailer with solar cells and spend $6K in lipo batteries..

Most of us that boondock run about 200W-400W of solar panels and 200-300AH of battery storage. Then we run a generator for the AC, microwave. A 2000-3000W (pure sine wave) inverter is practical on that size set-up for that 1st pot of coffee in the morning or running the microwave for 10 minutes or so.
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Old 04-29-2022, 08:09 AM   #4
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Default An Inverter must be wired be as close to the batteries as possible.

In general, the 12-VDC "12 volt" and "grounding" cables (between Inverter "input" and the battery terminals) need to be as short as possible, so that they do not consume power in wiring losses. If the Inverter is expected to run household appliances such as a coffee maker or microwave, those cables must also be very large. I use dual AWG 2/0 supply cables between my battery packs and my relatively big Inverter.

Although Solar power can contribute to the "12V" power draw on the batteries, the batteries themselves are the main source of power for an Inverter. The Solar system is wired to charge at the batteries (or their corresponding "bus" connectors, 12v and ground).

While the Solar system puts power into the battery bus terminals, the Inverter takes it away. The batteries themselves must provide any shortfall. If the Inverter is smaller than solar panels, or not being used for significant loads, then extra power remains to charge the batteries.
- - -
The most important questions, to ask you in return are: #1, how big are your batteries? and #2, what's the biggest appliance you hope to run?
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Old 04-29-2022, 09:27 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by mikegascon1 View Post
I am still at the thinking stage for solar. If I were to install a solar setup up, I would definitely want to install an inverter so my AC would work. How does that get wired in? To the power box under the shower? I assume they come with detailed instructions? I am not an electrical whiz bang and this is stumping me. I assume I am over thinking it and it is straight forward. Right?
Thanks

2007 3124
Vancouver, WA (close to Portland, OR)
(Adding some clarity to what's already been shared by others)

Hi Mike- to accomplish what you've stated you'd like to accomplish (the ability to run the A/C from battery power) using off-the-shelf materials starting with an "average/factory" build TrailManor, you'd need around 100 Amp Hour of battery energy per each hour of A/C use- so if buying Battle Born (or other popular Lithium brands), think of needing one battery for each hour of A/C use.

To safely convert the Direct Charge 12 volt electricity from those batteries to 12 volt A/C you'll need an inverter (likely in the 3000 Watt size, to be safe).

To replenish the charge of your battery bank, while running the A/C at about the same rate that the A/C (running via Inverter) is discharging it; you'll need around 1200 Watts of solar cells.

The above configuration should, hypothetically, run a TrailManor A/C under perfect conditions...but it's almost never going to be "perfect conditions".

Tree cover, cloud cover, solar panel orientation, etc. will all impact solar charging.

There are multiple ways to attack inefficiency/ uncertainty of solar changing, but the most obvious are-
1. Minimize load demand (buy a more efficient A/C)
2. Increase battery bank size
3. Examine practicalities of pursuing your TrailManor running A/C on battery power and minimize (or abandon) expectations

You may be able to buy or build a battery bank of sufficient capacity to mitigate some of the cost (of purchasing name brand Lithium batteries), but there are still significant hurdles to accomplish what you've stated.

The basic design of a TrailManor, which is awesome for tow-ability, is not easily conducive to the desired results of running a stock A/C on battery.


For a background: I am halfway to being able to do what you've stated. I can presently run my A/C from my battery bank and 600 Watt solar array and am in the process of adding 400 more Watts and doubling my Lithium battery bank, so that I can have additional capacity.
-The extremely tricky part is balancing the ability to do that with the practical aspects of the TrailManor and its usability.

To address one of your immediate questions, the 120 Volt out of the Inverter needs to be wired into the 120 power side of the TrailManor's power converter to power the 120 volt plugs and loads. An auto switch-over device is used to ensure that the Inverter never powers that 120 volt side of the TrailManor's power converter when the TrailManor is hooked up to shore power. Search YouTube for "TrailManor solar" to find Matt Carver's channel (the Critter and the Butterfly) for an explanation and video of his installation of solar and that automatically switch-over device.



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Old 04-29-2022, 10:10 AM   #6
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It occurs to me that when you said --

Quote:
If I were to install a solar setup up, I would definitely want to install an inverter so my AC would work.
-- you might have meant the 120VAC Alternating Current distribution in the trailer (outlets), and not the Air Conditioner itself. If that is what you meant, I jumped the gun and got us off on the wrong discussion. It is always worth clarifying those terms.

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Old 04-29-2022, 10:36 AM   #7
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To accomplish what you've stated you'd like to accomplish (the ability to run the A/C from battery power) ... To replenish the charge of your battery bank, while running the A/C at about the same rate that the A/C (running via Inverter) is discharging it; you'll need around 1200 Watts of solar cells.
Rich -

I'm not sure where the 1200 watt figure comes from. In 2007, I think TM was using a Coleman Mach 13,500 BTU air conditioner, which seems to require at least 1800 watts when running. Adding a true-sine inverter efficiency of 85% (admittedly a SWAG) ups the ante to around 2100 watts.

I think I found the YouTube channel you mentioned, but although it is titled Solar and A.C. Upgrades, I can't find anything about the air conditioner. Are we on the same page?

All your other points seem spot-on.

No matter what, it is a lot of power.

Bill
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Old 04-29-2022, 11:33 AM   #8
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Rich -

I'm not sure where the 1200 watt figure comes from. In 2007, I think TM was using a Coleman Mach 13,500 BTU unit, which seems to require at least 1800 watts when running. Adding a true-sine inverter efficiency of 85% (admittedly a SWAG) ups the ante to around 2100 watts.

I think I found the YouTube channel you mentioned, but although it is titled Solar and A.C. Upgrades, I can't find anything about the air conditioner. Are we on the same page?

All your other points seem spot-on.

No matter what, it is a lot of power.

Bill
Hi Bill,
That's first hand experience.

When watching my battery monitor live as I turn on and cycle through my 2021 2922KB's stock Air Conditioning running through my Inverter I see the following:

1180 Watts with the AC on high, 1020 Watts with AC on low, 197 Watts fan high, 131 Watts fan low.

The reading I'm seeing is straight from my battery bank (so Inverter losses are accounted for).

Matt Carver (YouTube the Critter and the Butterfly) just covers his Lithium upgrade and adding the auto switch-over. His Inverter is not large enough to run an A/C. Mine is; I have a 3000 Watt pure sine wave inverter.
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Old 04-29-2022, 12:08 PM   #9
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It occurs to me that when you said --


-- you might have meant the 120VAC Alternating Current distribution in the trailer (outlets), and not the Air Conditioner itself. If that is what you meant, I jumped the gun and got us off on the wrong discussion. It is always worth clarifying those terms.

Bill
I also assumed that's what you meant........

If you meant simply running a few 110V AC appliances (not the air conditioner), there are a few ways that they can be wired.


First, I will discuss hooking up your solar panels.

The solar panels can be mounted with solar "Z" brackets. Available on Amazon, eBay and most solar sellers websites. You can attach them to your roof with 1" wide, 3M VHB double side tape. No need to drill into your roof. Just be sure to clean all attaching surfaces thoroughly with rubbing alcohol. Attach the brackets to your panel(s) first. Do a dry run by laying the panel(s) in position on the roof and be sure that each one of the brackets lay flat on the roof panel. The rear brackets may need to be bent a little with vise grips or pliers to lay perfectly flat. Now attach the 3M VHB tape to all 4- brackets and carefully set the panels in place. Press down on each bracket (hard) for about 30-seconds) to activate the adhesive in the tape. Get it right the first time, there are no redo's. This attachment is actually stronger than using screws-

The solar panel(s) come with short pigtail wires that have MC4 connectors on them. That requires that you purchase solar wires (about 20') with MC4 connectors on one end. I prefer 8G wires but you can use 10G (a little small and less expensive) for up to 200W solar array. Those wires plug directly into your solar panel(s) pigtails with corresponding MC4 connectors already attached to your new wires. If you are installing multiple panels. You will need to buy MC4 "Y" connector pigtails. They are easy to use. Just ask if you are unsure.

Now, you are ready to mount your "Solar Controller". It is convenient to mount the controller on the back panel of the lower body of the trailer, next to the storage compartment door. That location is protected from weather and Sun, no matter if the trailer is open or closed. Just use S/S steel screws that usually come with the controller.

Now, plug in your MC4 solar wire connectors and run your solar wires across the roof to the driver side of the trailer and down the side (just in front of the widow and behind the upper roof bag seal when closed) then to the rear roof upper lift arm joint. You will need about an 18" loop at that joint before securing the cable to the top part and behind the lift arm. The loop is to allow for the roof raising and lowering. Secure wires , (I used plastic wire ties) about every 12" behind the roof lift arm, all the way to the lower lift arm pivot bracket. You will need to find a way to run the wire from that point to the controller. I drilled a hole in the bottom of the trailer entering the bottom of the storage compartment, in front of the battery box (back of the cabinet). I ran the wires into the battery box area, to the rear wall of the trailer where the controller was located. Then I drilled a hole about 4" below the controller (from the outside to the inside of the storage compartment). I ran my solar wires through the compartment, exited below the solar controller then cut the solar wire to length at about 6" outside the wall. DO NOT connect to the controller at this point.

You should have about 4' (or more) of solar wire left. That wire runs back through the hole that you made through the back wall (now you have 4 wires in that hole). As a side note......... everywhere that the wires pass through drilled holes, that wire must be protected from abrasion. I used short pieces of 1/2" PVC pipe and drilled my holes accordingly. Them I filled the PVC with calking.

The next step is to attach a 10G, "30A inline fuse" to the positive post of your battery(s). You will want to solder or crimp a 5/16" ring connector to the battery side of the inline fuse (pull the fuse out before connecting to the battery). Then connect the red solar wire to the other side of the inline fuse. It's preferable to solder but you can use a crimp style wire connector with heat shrink. Connect the black solar wire to the negative post of the battery. Run both wires out the drilled hole under the controller and hook them up the controller. The controller will be marked with + and - "Battery" symbol. Make sure your connections are tight, then put the 30A fuse into your newly installed inline fuse wire. Always be sure that the batteries are attached to the controller before making the connection to the controller from the solar array.

Now, you are ready to connect your red and black solar wires (from the solar array) to the controller. The controller will be marked with a solar panel symbol and a + and - connector.

Now you have your solar battery charger up and running to the batteries. Next, I will discuss hooking up the inverter if you found this helpful.
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Old 04-29-2022, 12:17 PM   #10
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I'm not sure where the 1200 watt figure comes from.
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Hi Bill,
That's first hand experience.
Interesting. I can't imagine that TM has downsized the BTU capacity of the air-co, so perhaps they have found a more efficient unit for new builds. The online specs just say "Low profile roof air conditioner", which isn't much help.

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