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Old 07-26-2022, 12:25 PM   #1
Casey Freswick
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Default Electrical 3.0

So here is a summary of events. Related to my TM electrical problems on this trip.

I have a 150 AMP lithium battery. I have tested it and it is really a 100 AMP battery but I bought it from china, not here on the forum. I have several days to try to fix a problem here in MT before I head back to MI.


1. I had 2 30 amp fuses on my 12 volt board burn out.

First, here is a link to the web page of my Converter which tells about the 2 30 Amp Fuses that blew: Reverse battery protection fuses.

https://www.bestconverter.com/PD-465...l#.Yt2dhi9MFvI


I replaced the two 30 AMP fuses on my 12 volt panel and have tested a number of different electrical configurations and they have not blown. They now stable. I have not been able to duplicate them burning out.

2. I blow my brothers 110 GFI in his garage outlets each time I have all 120 volt circuits on. When I have main, microwave and airconditioner circuits on there seems to be no problem.

3. I bypass a GFI outlet and turn on all 110 circuits and there is no problem with the 110 circuits on my TM panel blowing.

4. I turned the 80 AMP breaker off, disconnecting the battery to the converter, converter works: it is putting out 14.5 volts to my 12 volt panel. All 12 volt lights, fans, etc work. There is 14.5 volts going to both the 12 volt system and the battery. With 80 circuit breaker to the battery off/disconnected the converter continues to work.

5. I turned the 80 amp breaker (which is in between the positive wire between the battery and converter). BMS system on battery registers charging, Battery monitoring system you recomened recognizes charging. I switched to 13.2 volt output on my converter and it was putting out 57 AMPS (my charger as you can see is a 55 AM charger). .

6. After about 90 seconds the 80 AMP fuse blew. (This is what was happening. This is now a consistent problem.

7. I put a regular charger at 10 Amps to charge my lithium batter for a short time. Neither the battery BMS or my installed Battery monitoring system are registering a charge.

ANY SUGGESTIONS?

Is my breaker bad?

Is my batter bad? (It holds a charge and I used it without a full charge before the BMS shut it down.

Is my converter bad?
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Old 07-26-2022, 01:30 PM   #2
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You need one of these.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...KIKX0DER&psc=1
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Old 07-28-2022, 07:50 AM   #3
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Casey, I had to read through multiple old posts to understand Wavery's post and upon digging through what you shared in the past think he's thrown out as good of advice as anyone who's casually arm chair- engineering....but let me suggest the following (from someone who has replaced their TrailManor's converter; relocated and upgraded the batteries; installed a large inverter; upgraded solar panel array; and installed the auto switch which is referenced in the post above mine)-

Please take the original TrailManor wiring schematic and amend it with updates you've made to your TM'S wiring. Whether you do it with pen and paper or a digital version, you really need to do that so that someone not sitting with your rig can fully grasp what you have compared with what problems you're experiencing.

That'll take some time; but it'll give those who might be able to share insights a chance to look over what you have/ and have added in one place without digging through the annuals of the forum.

You may likely find the root of the problem just by creating your own documentation, but if you don't you're giving those on the forum a real chance to help vs. just guessing.
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Old 07-28-2022, 08:09 AM   #4
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A "Regular battery charger" will read the lithium battery voltage and think that your battery is fully charged.

After reading your post again, I'm thinking that you may have some grounding issue somewhere in your power center or one of the outlets may have the positive and neutral wires crossed. That "might" explain your brother's GFI tripping.

Not sure why your converter is going to 57A. That might be a wiring issue as well. Do you have the "Charge Wizard" on your converter?
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Old 07-28-2022, 07:47 PM   #5
Casey Freswick
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It would be great to find the GFI problem.

My converter does have the "charge wizard" and I reduced it to 32 Amps, but it still blew the breaker. The 57 Amps registered on the battery monitor I have installed.

I hope to get to the wiring diagram that Rick suggested at some point. But loading model T parts tomorrow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavery View Post
A "Regular battery charger" will read the lithium battery voltage and think that your battery is fully charged.

After reading your post again, I'm thinking that you may have some grounding issue somewhere in your power center or one of the outlets may have the positive and neutral wires crossed. That "might" explain your brother's GFI tripping.

Not sure why your converter is going to 57A. That might be a wiring issue as well. Do you have the "Charge Wizard" on your converter?
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Old 07-29-2022, 08:49 AM   #6
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Not sure it this is your problem, but I had a similar issue with a GFCI circuit failing. Don't ask me why, but I was told (and it was true) that me electrical heating element in my water heater had been shorted out. This is caused by turning on the element without water in the tank. I pulled the cap off the back off of the element, disconnected the two wires, wrapped each with electrical tape, and tried the GFCI circuit again... and VIOLA! I subsequently replaced the heating element with a new one (they are not expensive) and life had been grand ever since.

As I said, I and not sure this is YOUR issue, but its an easy way to ensure it's not. Happy hunting!
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Old 07-29-2022, 01:23 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmikesell View Post
Not sure it this is your problem, but I had a similar issue with a GFCI circuit failing. Don't ask me why, but I was told (and it was true) that me electrical heating element in my water heater had been shorted out. This is caused by turning on the element without water in the tank. I pulled the cap off the back off of the element, disconnected the two wires, wrapped each with electrical tape, and tried the GFCI circuit again... and VIOLA! I subsequently replaced the heating element with a new one (they are not expensive) and life had been grand ever since.

As I said, I and not sure this is YOUR issue, but its an easy way to ensure it's not. Happy hunting!
Very good catch.......

A short would also account for the high amperage rate from the converter.
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Old 07-29-2022, 02:17 PM   #8
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Wavery and all -

Not to be fussy, but the issue of a failed water heater element tripping a GFI, but not tripping a circuit breaker or blowing a fuse, is a bit more complex than a simple short, because it does not involve an overload or high current. It is discussed in detail here

https://www.trailmanorowners.com/for...ead.php?t=8101

and has worked every time the issue of GFI-but-not-circuit breaker has come up.

Kory, I'm not sure where you heard about this, but I'm glad you brought it forward. The explanation is a bit more complicated than most folks care to wade through, but it is accurate.

Anyone who is finding that a GFI in a campground or garage is tripping, even when all the breakers in the TM are turned off, should at least read the intro to the writeup. It can save a lot of frustration and wasted work.

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Old 07-29-2022, 04:54 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill View Post
Wavery and all -

Not to be fussy, but the issue of a failed water heater element tripping a GFI, but not tripping a circuit breaker or blowing a fuse, is a bit more complex than a simple short, because it does not involve an overload or high current. It is discussed in detail here

https://www.trailmanorowners.com/for...ead.php?t=8101

and has worked every time the issue of GFI-but-not-circuit breaker has come up.

Kory, I'm not sure where you heard about this, but I'm glad you brought it forward. The explanation is a bit more complicated than most folks care to wade through, but it is accurate.

Anyone who is finding that a GFI in a campground or garage is tripping, even when all the breakers in the TM are turned off, should at least read the intro to the writeup. It can save a lot of frustration and wasted work.

Bill
I know....... that's why I didn't say "dead short". The neutral element just reacts the grounded tank. That's why the converter can get confused also because that make the water heater look like a dead battery.
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Old 07-30-2022, 08:45 AM   #10
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Default Some of this was unclear (to me).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey Freswick View Post
So here is a summary of events. Related to my TM electrical problems on this trip.

I have a 150 AMP lithium battery. I have tested it and it is really a 100 AMP battery but I bought it from china, not here on the forum. I have several days to try to fix a problem here in MT before I head back to MI.


1. I had 2 30 amp fuses on my 12 volt board burn out.
The TM 12v fuse board (if WFCO) has two "left side" surface mount connectors, normally equipped 40A fuses. On the right side, a number of "downstream" fuses for various appliances are (IIRC) ALL smaller than that size. Are you speaking of a WFCO Board? Did the blown fuses occur on undersized "left" connectors, or oversized "right" connectors?

In the case of an older Parallax Board from earlier years, each of the two "main" connectors handled only half of the downstream fuses as a individual bus. For power through one of the "main connectors" to reach donstream loads and fuses which the board wired to the OTHER main connector, current must traverse a very "weak" internal interconnect between the two halves. An older Parallax Board should probably be replaced if internally weak "main wiring" is leading to problems.

Which Board are you talking about?
- - -
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey Freswick View Post
First, here is a link to the web page of my Converter which tells about the 2 30 Amp Fuses that blew: Reverse battery protection fuses.

https://www.bestconverter.com/PD-465...l#.Yt2dhi9MFvI
Those are PD-4655VL internal fuses (on the converter main board), and not fuses on the TM's own 12v fuse board. I am not familiar with the PD Converter, although I own a somewhat similar 'WildKat'.

Those fuses are intended to provide protection against reverse wiring. A very special kind of 'reverse wiring' can occur in a 120-VAC "hot skin" situation, as follows: 120-VAC is present on the TM Skin, cycling at 60hz between about +170 volts and -170 volts.

Battery "-" is always provided with an excellent connection to the frame. So is the plug-in 120-VAC Safety Ground wire bus (the green and bare wires), but if the green wire connectors aren't draining EVERYTHING leaked as "120-VAC hot skin" to house/grid safety ground, the the 12v grounding voltage flies around, and the PD Converter may be properly protecting itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey Freswick View Post
2. I blow my brothers 110 GFI in his garage outlets each time I have all 120 volt circuits on. When I have main, microwave and airconditioner circuits on there seems to be no problem.

3. I bypass a GFI outlet and turn on all 110 circuits and there is no problem with the 110 circuits on my TM panel blowing.
What about WH+Fridge circuit? That is a critical question.

Tripping of 120-VAC GFCI circuits occurs when the "hot" and "current carrying neural" wires contain unequal amounts of current. That ALWAYS happens when power on either leg is being "lost" and drained away by the bare and green-wire safety grounding connections.

The TM should generally never trip a GFCI breaker, unless then Converter is running and creating small amounts of 'out-of-phase' current differential, being detected by by a house GFCI.

IMO, it would be more "friendly" if water heater 120-VAC was wired through another dedicated GFCI, rather than connected to a dumb 20A circuit (It's a purely resistive load, very compatible with GFCI circuits). We'd get immediate indications for 120-VAC WH heater elements leaking power into the water (and enclosure), ultimately leaking through a "hot-skin" frame and being drained away by the safety grounding wire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey Freswick View Post
4. I turned the 80 AMP breaker off, disconnecting the battery to the converter, converter works: it is putting out 14.5 volts to my 12 volt panel. All 12 volt lights, fans, etc work. There is 14.5 volts going to both the 12 volt system and the battery. With 80 circuit breaker to the battery off/disconnected the converter continues to work.

5. I turned the 80 amp breaker (which is in between the positive wire between the battery and converter). BMS system on battery registers charging, Battery monitoring system you recommended recognizes charging. I switched to 13.2 volt output on my converter and it was putting out 57 AMPS (my charger as you can see is a 55 AM charger).

6. After about 90 seconds the 80 AMP fuse blew. (This is what was happening. This is now a consistent problem.
It might be the case that "hot skin" is affecting current more quickly than the monitors will register, they are designed to display DC only. 57 amps from a PD "55A" or WildKat is a normal situation, which it should be able to support indefinitely.

Or the "beaker" (or is it a fuse???) is tripping too early, it might be defective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey Freswick View Post
7. I put a regular charger at 10 Amps to charge my lithium batter for a short time. Neither the battery BMS or my installed Battery monitoring system are registering a charge.
If your "regular charger" is a semi-smart charger which reduces voltage and/or maximum when it thinks that a car's lead-acid battery has reached nearly full charge, it might think that a Lithium battery pack @ more than 12.8 volts is alreasdy "fully charged". You could use an el-cheapo DVM, capable of reading 10A current, to see whether the "regular charger" has made that determination.

It might also be trying to charge at too high a voltage, invoking BMS over-voltage disconnect. If it has a "bulk mode" switch, try flicking that switch and checking both voltage and maximum current.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey Freswick View Post
Is my breaker bad?

Is my batter bad? (It holds a charge and I used it without a full charge before the BMS shut it down.)

Is my converter bad?
Breaker = maybe.
Battery = no problem.
BMS = maybe causing problems.
Converter = probably good.

'HOT SKIN' 120-VAC leakage effecting 12v electronics including Converter and BMS? A very likely problem.
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