Towing (another question :)

Hi, I've looked through threads for the past few days and have become more and more skeptical about the towing capacity of ANY vehicle based on my reading. I'm about to order a 2014 Audi Q5 and would like some input from people that have experience with pop-up campers. I'm not really interested in the tent type (looking at Trailmanor only).

Generally, it will just be me and my 6 year old and our bicycles, but concerts and festivals will also be likely destinations with the camper. I'm trying to determine what I can safely tow based on the specs below and people experience. The 3.0 TDI is the same engine and almost identical accompanying transmission used in the large Audi Q7 (and Toureg is maybe). The shorter wheelbase accounts for the drop in towing capacity from 6,600 lbs, and in Europe the vehicle is rated for 5,000 and change.

3.0-liter TDI® direct-injection clean diesel engine w/ 240 hp

Torque is 428 @1750-2250
(580 Nm)

Eight-speed tiptronic® automatic transmission w/ sport program & manual shift mode

quattro® permanent all-wheel drive system w/ asymmetric/dynamic torque distribution (torque split 40:60)

Trailer hitch provision in the electrical cable tree; towing capacity of 4,400lbs. (w/440 pound tongue-weight)

Wheelbase: 110.5 (2807 mm)
Length: 182.6 (4639 mm)
Curb Weight: 4475 (2030 kg)

Diesel

Based on these figures and a much lighter payload than a family of 4 would require, could you ladies and gents please comment on which of these is the largest you would consider for this vehicle?

Your statement that there is no vehicle capable of towing any Trailmanor is a bit over-reactive in my opinion. There are many vehicles available with adequate towing capacity for all TM models, but what commonly occurs on this forum is the "I have such and such a vehicle, and I want to confirm I can use it" syndrome.

What occurs at this point is two different paths typically occur. The first group says they have the same vehicle and have never had a problem towing with it. The second group, which I am a member of without reservation, is that towing anything near or above the design limits of a tow vehicle is a recipe for disaster.

You rarely see members coming on the forum looking for validation to use a F550. Trying not to be glib, but I hope you see my point.

I tow a 3326 with a Ford Expedition rated for 8200 lbs with a weight distributing hitch. I used to tow a 3124 with a V6 Trailblazer and no WDH. In hindsight that was a stupid thing to do. Nothing bad happened while I did it, except for overheating the Trailblazer in the PA mountains. I did not do adequate research on the realistic tow weights of the trailer, and relied primarily on factory "empty" weights in my decision.

In between these two TMs we hauled a 39 foot toy hauler with two motorcycles in it. That was when I got educated on towing capacity and the reality of stopping a towed trailer in emergency situations.

Towing a trailer is one consideration. Stopping it safely is another. Towing without prematurely ruining an expensive vehicle is another, or incurring excessive repair costs. The perhaps least likely but most critical consideration in my opinion is potential liability if an accident occurs and you are found to be towing over rated limits.

It sounds like you are looking at a very nice vehicle. With 4400/440 tow ratings, I would not consider it adequate for any except the smallest Trailmanors. Good luck with your purchase and safe travels.

Originally Posted by MisterP

Your statement that there is no vehicle capable of towing any Trailmanor is a bit over-reactive in my opinion. There are many vehicles available with adequate towing capacity for all TM models, but what commonly occurs on this forum is the "I have such and such a vehicle, and I want to confirm I can use it" syndrome.

What occurs at this point is two different paths typically occur. The first group says they have the same vehicle and have never had a problem towing with it. The second group, which I am a member of without reservation, is that towing anything near or above the design limits of a tow vehicle is a recipe for disaster.

You rarely see members coming on the forum looking for validation to use a F550. Trying not to be glib, but I hope you see my point.

I tow a 3326 with a Ford Expedition rated for 8200 lbs with a weight distributing hitch. I used to tow a 3124 with a V6 Trailblazer and no WDH. In hindsight that was a stupid thing to do. Nothing bad happened while I did it, except for overheating the Trailblazer in the PA mountains. I did not do adequate research on the realistic tow weights of the trailer, and relied primarily on factory "empty" weights in my decision.

In between these two TMs we hauled a 39 foot toy hauler with two motorcycles in it. That was when I got educated on towing capacity and the reality of stopping a towed trailer in emergency situations.

Towing a trailer is one consideration. Stopping it safely is another. Towing without prematurely ruining an expensive vehicle is another, or incurring excessive repair costs. The perhaps least likely but most critical consideration in my opinion is potential liability if an accident occurs and you are found to be towing over rated limits.

It sounds like you are looking at a very nice vehicle. With 4400/440 tow ratings, I would not consider it adequate for any except the smallest Trailmanors. Good luck with your purchase and safe travels.

Thank you for the feedback. I agree about the smaller TMs. It may seem like splitting hairs, but I was trying to get a fix on whether it's worth special ordering a 26, buying a 27(both of which are mentioned on the brochure) or if 24' is the largest I should shoot for. This may end up as a full-time arrangement for a good part of next year while I do some sightseeing and still have my house rented out.

Thanks for the feedback.

I ran across this handy tool while researching. It's all metric, and the vehicle models are probably a bit different in most cases as they have more diesel choices than us, but I found it useful.

http://www.towcar.info/type.php

Chance

[LoveToCamp]

I have a 2417 Sport, which is the narrower of the two 2417 models. For my wife and I, it is fine. We have room to do what we want, and room for whatever we take. But, we spent 10 years in a pop-up, and don't take much more than we are likely to need for a particular trip. For example, I leave the dutch oven at home, if I don't plan to cook with it.

I weighed it last fall when it was loaded, and 40 gal water tank, dual propane tanks were full. 3300 lbs. Tongue wt was 350 lbs, if I recall. I have the AC unit, but no awning. However, I did purchase a canopy this winter, which will add about 50 lbs to my camping weight.

If you go with the 2417 Classic, it is 6" wider, which makes a big difference in the aisle between the two sides. If you aren't going to go off-road (with an Audi, I don't think you will), I would recommend the 2417 Classic. It weighs about 200 lbs more, I believe, with maybe 20lbs more tongue wt. It also depends on how you pack, what your tongue wt. is.

Go look at both the 2417 Sport, and the 2417 Classic, and I think you will see that the 2417 Classic should have plenty of room for the two of you, even for a long summer together. (Of course, the only privacy is in the bathroom, so maybe it isn't big enough for a dad and young son!)

Enjoy your shopping!

[Bill]

cgermany -

Amongst all the tech specs, you omitted what I think is one very important consideration.

Where will you tow?

It should be apparent that towing a trailer on straight roads on the flats in Florida or Indiana is very different from towing the same trailer through the Rockies or the Sierras, getting up to 10,000-12,000 feet, with steep grades (both up and down), and sharp bends that limit your speed to 10 mph (in other words, very little cooling airflow for the transmission).

Some of our members do indeed tow mostly short distances on the flats, and some tow long distances in the mountains. Both are perfectly valid uses for the trailer, but they put substantially different demands on the tow vehicle.

So where will you tow?

Bill

[clan_salmons]

Let me qualify this post by saying I am not an expert at towing. We purchased our 3023 last year and that is the limit of my towing experience. I can say that I did a ton of research on tow vehicles. We wanted a vehicle large enough to safely tow the TM and small enough that we felt comfortable in the grocery store parking lot. The Q7 was on our short list, but we really didn't need a seven passenger vehicle. The Q5 was just too small for the size TM we wanted. I did get a chance to drive a Q5 2.0T for a day and was impressed. I thought the 8 speed would be hunting for gears all the way home as I came through some mountains. I don't think it ever downshifted excepted when I punched it. The torque out of that little engine was surprising. I immediately looked it up when I got home.

Since you are looking at a "cousin" I couldn't help but post our experience with our 2009 Cayenne 3.6L v6 with 290hp and 273lb torque at 3000 rpm. It has the same basic heritage in the drive train as the Audi. AWD with a 40/60 torque split. The Cayenne pulls the TM with ease. I use sport mode to boost throttle response and extend the shift points. I can pull away from a stop light right along with the traffic. On a 700 mile run fully loaded (40gl water tank) though Virginia mountains last year I averaged 14.5mpg. Handling was superb with absolutely no sway in turns or meeting tractor trailers on 2 lane roads. The six piston Brembo brakes (not sure about the Q5 here) did not fade in hard (oops,there's my turn) downhill braking and the TM stayed right behind us without a wiggle. Yes I could tell that I had 4,000+ lbs back there, but at no point was I concerned that I was under equipped.

Comparing the Q5 to my Cayenne I noted the following:
Wheelbase 110.5 vs 112.4
Shorter, but I am also towing a 23 footer.

Payload 1,047 vs 1,731 lbs
You will need to watch this. Tongue weight, passengers and gear come out of this number.

Tongue Weight 440 vs 600 lbs
You'll need to be very careful here. Search the forum for actual weight measurements for 2619/2720 models to give you an idea how big you can go. TM's have their axle further back to improve stability. Don't forget to consider water. My 40 gallon tank is in front of my axle and at 8.3 lbs/gal you can really load up your tongue weight. A WDH would be essential here.

Curb Weight 4,475 vs 4,762 lbs
I would have never thought that the Q5 I drove weighed this much. Of course the diesel adds a bit, but it really felt much lighter. Coupled with the AWD and Audi's stability controls, this gives some pretty good footing.

Torque: 428lbs at 1,750 rpm. Hands down winner here, especially with the 8 speed transmission. I've read reports of diesel Cayennes getting well over 30 mpg with this combo.

As you can tell I thought the Q5 was a great vehicle. You need to check to make sure the factory hitch is a Class III. It should be with that tow rating. I would also check with the dealer about what Audi thinks about WDHs. Touaregs and Cayennes say no, but we do it anyway.

Hope this helps a little. Please read the disclaimer at the top.
Oh and if you do get the Q5, be ready for the "You can't tow that with that!". It's fun to tell people about the virtues of a TrailManor.

Stan

Originally Posted by clan_salmons

Let me qualify this post by saying I am not an expert at towing. We purchased our 3023 last year and that is the limit of my towing experience. I can say that I did a ton of research on tow vehicles. We wanted a vehicle large enough to safely tow the TM and small enough that we felt comfortable in the grocery store parking lot. The Q7 was on our short list, but we really didn't need a seven passenger vehicle. The Q5 was just too small for the size TM we wanted. I did get a chance to drive a Q5 2.0T for a day and was impressed. I thought the 8 speed would be hunting for gears all the way home as I came through some mountains. I don't think it ever downshifted excepted when I punched it. The torque out of that little engine was surprising. I immediately looked it up when I got home.

Since you are looking at a "cousin" I couldn't help but post our experience with our 2009 Cayenne 3.6L v6 with 290hp and 273lb torque at 3000 rpm. It has the same basic heritage in the drive train as the Audi. AWD with a 40/60 torque split. The Cayenne pulls the TM with ease. I use sport mode to boost throttle response and extend the shift points. I can pull away from a stop light right along with the traffic. On a 700 mile run fully loaded (40gl water tank) though Virginia mountains last year I averaged 14.5mpg. Handling was superb with absolutely no sway in turns or meeting tractor trailers on 2 lane roads. The six piston Brembo brakes (not sure about the Q5 here) did not fade in hard (oops,there's my turn) downhill braking and the TM stayed right behind us without a wiggle. Yes I could tell that I had 4,000+ lbs back there, but at no point was I concerned that I was under equipped.

Comparing the Q5 to my Cayenne I noted the following:
Wheelbase 110.5 vs 112.4
Shorter, but I am also towing a 23 footer.

Payload 1,047 vs 1,731 lbs
You will need to watch this. Tongue weight, passengers and gear come out of this number.

Tongue Weight 440 vs 600 lbs
You'll need to be very careful here. Search the forum for actual weight measurements for 2619/2720 models to give you an idea how big you can go. TM's have their axle further back to improve stability. Don't forget to consider water. My 40 gallon tank is in front of my axle and at 8.3 lbs/gal you can really load up your tongue weight. A WDH would be essential here.

Curb Weight 4,475 vs 4,762 lbs
I would have never thought that the Q5 I drove weighed this much. Of course the diesel adds a bit, but it really felt much lighter. Coupled with the AWD and Audi's stability controls, this gives some pretty good footing.

Torque: 428lbs at 1,750 rpm. Hands down winner here, especially with the 8 speed transmission. I've read reports of diesel Cayennes getting well over 30 mpg with this combo.

As you can tell I thought the Q5 was a great vehicle. You need to check to make sure the factory hitch is a Class III. It should be with that tow rating. I would also check with the dealer about what Audi thinks about WDHs. Touaregs and Cayennes say no, but we do it anyway.

Hope this helps a little. Please read the disclaimer at the top.
Oh and if you do get the Q5, be ready for the "You can't tow that with that!". It's fun to tell people about the virtues of a TrailManor.

Stan

Hi Stan,

Thank you very much for the detailed reply. It's good to hear that you've spent some time in a Q5. I'm going to check on the WDH.

As Bill pointed out, the terrain is also going to be a factor in my favor I think. I live in Houston and don't plan on towing this trailer to Pike's Peak. I will be between Houston, San Antonio and Austin mostly. If I head up to snowski I am planning to just rent an RV or trailer locally.

Would you have concerns about the transmission in the Q5? I know the engine isn't the limiting factor in the 4,400 lb tow rating (the additional torque provided by the diesel doesn't increase the rating at all), so I"m not sure if I should be worried more about transmission cooling or sway from the trailer.

I'm trying to avoid stepping up to a Mercedes M if I don't need to. By the way, how do you like the Cayenne? It was on my short list, but both the Merc M and Cayenne will add another 10-20k for comparable options.

Thanks!

Chance

Originally Posted by Cgermany

I ran across this handy tool while researching. It's all metric, and the vehicle models are probably a bit different in most cases as they have more diesel choices than us, but I found it useful.

http://www.towcar.info/type.php

Chance

This is interesting and illustrates some fundamental differences between European trailering practices and North American. The site is primarily concerned about the total weight differences between the car and trailer.

It does not address tongue weight at all, perhaps because most Euro caravans have a very low tongue weight relative to the trailer. The axles are usually centred on the trailer. And they never use WDHs, as the tongue weights are so low. And so I guess the TVs are not really built for Weight Distribution (at least the Touareg says not to use a WDH).

What I really don't understand is why those rigs don't sway all over the place? Maybe it's the aerodynamics and being built close to the ground?

Over here, tongue weight, WDH and its effect on the TV payload is a very important part of the trailering discussion.

[mjlaupp]

I would be most concerned with the tongue weight on the Q5 hitch. Take a look at the Q5 receiver hitch: http://www.iamaudi.com/audi-q5-tow-h...ports-service/ I don't think it would support a WDH and I can see why it would not be indorsed by Audi.