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Old 01-21-2015, 04:23 PM   #41
Padgett
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Are lots of arguments both ways (actually with Jeeps, three ways):
V6 (gas) live in flatlands have seen 24 on the Interstate and 17-18 towing at 65 mph. Half the torque but maintain to 6400 rpm (redline) so in hills are a gear or two down & 50% higher revs for same tractive effort at same speed. Mine is flex-fuel.
V8 (Hemi) same torque as diesel, needs 89-91 octane, 16 spark plugs, less mpg
V6 (TD) same torque as Hemi, better MPG than V6, initial price higher, diesel fuel higher and not as available.

Three years ago, I would have gone for the diesel in a heartbeat but was not available then. Now with a lot of 290hp V6 gas towing, I'd need to think about it. When the V6 (gas) gets direct injection I would not need to think.

So if you do a lot of mountain driving
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Old 01-22-2015, 08:15 AM   #42
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Saw this article from Consumer Reports on the new 2.7L EcoBoost. Seems to fall in line with what you've been saying, Padgett. The consistent conclusion is that you will get better mpg towing with a diesel, but you may never overcome the initial higher cost of the diesel, especially when considering the price differential between diesel and gas. I did like that the Airstream used in this example is close to my tow weight for my 3124KS.

I'm still at least a year away from buying a new truck, so I'm sure there will be lots more to think about by then!

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/n...-tow/index.htm


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Old 01-22-2015, 09:36 AM   #43
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Airsteam has a lot more frontal areal than a TM & I find the flow from my Grand Cherokee to the TM is very even. Makes a difference over 50 mph and varies with the square of the speed.

The importance of direct injection cannot be emphasized enough because it allows very diesel-like performance from a gas engine. It allows operation at detonation which permits silly amounts of boost.

In the last century, this was not important since diesel fuel was easier to refine and cheaper than gasoline. The administration fixed that.

The rules are different now and while very large engines will probably stay diesel, up to about 500 cc per cylender (whould take a while to explain why) boosted direct injection gas engines make a lot of sense and have one big advantage: while most small diesels are "all in" by 4800 rpm, the ecoboost makes over 300 lb-ft of torque from 1600 to 5800 rpm.

It is this very broad torque curve that sets gas engines apart from diesels but takes DOHC with VVT i&e to manage it.

Jeep is said to have a direct injection version of the Pentastar ready for next year but it also take boost to really make power.
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Old 01-22-2015, 04:06 PM   #44
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If I was not towing, I don't think economics would be a compelling reason to get a diesel. With the Jeep 8-spd tranny, the gas engines get pretty good mileage, so the mileage disparity is much less than comparing to a <20mpg vehicle.

When I just did a comparison spreadsheet, at a 70-cent differential in fuel prices, using 20 mpg for a V-6 Grand Cherokee (don't need the extra power of a V-8 if I am not towing, I suppose, and it skews in favor of a gas engine), and a 28 combined mpg for the diesel, one would spend the same amount on fuel. I ran 50k, 100k, and 150k mile comparisons, and expenditures were the same for each fuel economy model.

However, with a 30-cent per gallon difference, which is what the Denver area has averaged for the last three years (didn't pay attention before that), the diesel fuel will cost $700 less for 50k miles, $1400 less over 100k miles, and $2000 less over 150k miles.

Using that comparison, and assuming one is not going to use a vehicle where power is the primary concern, I would say that a diesel is not worth the extra expense. Until I quit towing, though, I will have a diesel.
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Old 01-22-2015, 06:42 PM   #45
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Just if you are doing a spreadsheet don't forget the $4500 extra cost of the diesel over the V6. More if you didn't want to upgrade to a Limited (Diesel is not currently available on the Laredo).
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Old 01-22-2015, 08:25 PM   #46
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Yes, Padgett, that's why I said it doesn't make sense based on the savings on fuel purchases. If the diesel was not an up-charge engine, it would make sense to purchase the diesel simply for the fuel savings. Since I drive about 45k miles a year, my fuel savings would be considerable, if I ignored the cost of the diesel package.

Since the upcharge has been acknowledged previously in this topic, I didn't see the need to re-state the known factor. I know you don't like diesels, but for some, it does make sense. However, simply based on superior fuel economy is not sufficient reason to buy one. I will admit that I am quite impressed with the diesel, as I never considered a diesel as practical for me until 3 years ago.
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Old 01-23-2015, 06:03 AM   #47
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In one thing you are mistaken. I like diesels, particularly turbo diesels. Just like a lot of things (I like Jaguars also) they do not make sense in this time and place.
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Old 01-24-2015, 07:45 AM   #48
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Good discussion. I'm still about a year away from upgrading the TV, but when I shop, I always like to have as much input as possible. And believe me, I do understand the "I like diesel" thing. My son has a Ram 2500 with a Cummins diesel. He gets about 13-14 mpg driving it around empty (because he's in the turbo all the time), and it costs him EXACTLY one billion dollars every time he fills up. And he loves his truck, and wouldn't have anything else.

I'm far less emotional about my selection. I'm not sold on a particular brand (I currently use a 2004 F150 with 5.4L for my TV), or gas/diesel. All that will come from shopping.

Ford's EcoBoost engine has been a success for them in the F150, and several members of this forum have spoken well of them. One thing I consistently hear about them is that while they are excellent tow vehicles, mpg suffers dramatically as you increase the use of the "Boost" part of "EcoBoost." Since I only tow about 2-3K miles per year, this may not be as big a consideration as it would be for those that tow more.

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Old 01-24-2015, 11:03 AM   #49
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This is something that people with gasoline engines do not understand about diesels: like a horse it will just keep going until it expires (what "rode it to death" means) & the more fuel and more boost you put in, the more power will come out (but note the "more fuel" part.)

This is why monitoring the EGT on a boosted diesel is critical and more so on the new, light, aluminum blocks (think the Ford ecoboost is still an iron block).

Most gas engines will carry on cranky and go into massive detonation when overheating. A diesel will just keep pulling.

There has been a lot of life experience with the BMW 2.4 liter turbo diesel that came out in the mid-80s (used in some Fords and the Vixen RV). Can say that if the EGT gets too high, cylinder heads are quite expensive to replace.

I suspect that as direct injection becomes common, gas engines will become more diesel like and people will need to follow diesel precautions. (like let the engine idle for a while after a hard pull and Do Not just shut down). Be warned.
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