So I'm finally goin' legit...

... and purchasing a real tow vehicle, after having towed my 3124kb with my minivan for 2 (3?) years now.

Reason? Well, aside from the fact that we'd like to embark on a few longer, hillier trips, I decided to contact my auto/homeowners insurance company (not agent, and not the rv insurer) to see how they feel about me towing over the limit (it's been bugging me for a while, and so I decided to man up and ask the question ). Frankly, my van tows wonderfully, and has stopped well in emergency situations -- but in this litigious society, the threat of a civil suit made me a wee bit concerned over time...

They weren't too keen on that -- more specifically, they stated plainly that if I were in an accident I'd be out of luck on both my TV and any liability coverage. Yeek!

Strangely enough, the rv insurer doesn't _appear_ to care (called them as well, and they could not find any exclusion that spoke to gross negligence, etc. -- the only thing that might've applied was in a horrible accident if you get nailed with a felony, then you're up a creek).

So, here I am, one month til I gotta get my trailer from storage, looking to make an unexpected TV purchase. I think I've settled on an Expedition in the 04-05 range with the HD tow package (usually find them around 80-90k miles)... silly pickups hold their value too well, and given this is gonna be a third vehicle (I can't bear to have a daily driver with the mpg, and i love my van), I gotta get something cheap without too many miles...

So anyway, that's that -- I know that while there isn't exactly volumes of court cases that speak to legal outcomes of towing over the limit, apparently at least some insurers don't look kindly on exceeding tow limits -- those towing over the limit might want to check with their insurers as well...

Thanks,
John

p.s. don't think this means I'm gonna fix my signature! It's still way too much fun to insert patently absurd tow vehicles in that space...

[Mr. Adventure]

Originally Posted by HappyWDWCampers

...

...more specifically, they stated plainly that if I were in an accident I'd be out of luck on both my TV and any liability coverage. Yeek!

Strangely enough, the rv insurer doesn't _appear_ to care (called them as well, and they could not find any exclusion that spoke to gross negligence, etc. -- the only thing that might've applied was in a horrible accident if you get nailed with a felony, then you're up a creek).

Wow. This would be the first credible report I've ever heard about anything like this. If there are such exclusions, it's a big deal, because you need to know exactly what they are, how they are worded, and how they are applied. Maybe there's a good reason to insure your trailer and tow vehicle on the same policy: They could never say they didn't know how you were towing your TrailManor.

I studied my policy when I was with GEICO and with the company I have now. I've read the laws of the State of California and the Commonwealth of Virginia where they talk about towing and loads. I've talked to my agent. I've talked to my attorney. I've talked to cops.

There are insurance exclusions in my policy for deliberately causing an accident and for the use of a vehicle in the commission of a felony (that would be, for example, like if someone insured by my policy decided to use an insured vehicle to rob a bank or if they were chasing Leon Panetta's airplane on a runway in Afganistan). My policy has no exclusions regarding manufacturer specifications of any kind, whether my vehicles have the right equipment, whether it's being used properly, or if the vehicles have the right or wrong tires.

It's always a great idea to ask searching questions and know where you stand on all kinds of things in this world. But I absolutely would not ever be insured by a company that would allow me to be in any remotely plausible situation where I could "be out of luck on both my TV and any liability coverage".

What else would they care about in the way of big easy things like towing my 4000# TrailManor with a Volkswagen Beetle that's not rated to tow anything? How about smaller details like hypothetically having a 506# tongue weight some day on a 500# rated hitch? What if your trailer hitch is later determined to be the wrong kind for your vehicle? How about if you have low air pressure in a tire?

You could try to figure these things out. But think about it: No one knowingly causes an accident. The guy who has something in the back of his truck that falls off and kills somebody needs to be insured even if that event results in a conviction for some kind of felonious vehicular homicide.

A new insurance company is not only less expensive than a new tow vehicle, it's also potentially a lot less expensive than a lousy insurance policy, even if it was to cost twice as much as the bad one.

You're absolutely right that I need to find out more about this -- I plan to call Monday and find out additional information. That being said, I think the idea that somehow this might work against me has spooked me enough that I'm still going to get the dedicated TV -- it's just not worth the uncertainty and potential liability...

And while I do agree that no one knowingly causes an accident, I can't help but wonder (disclaimer: it is truly just wondering, given how woefully ignorant I am of the subtleties of our legal code) if they might somehow find me grossly and willfully negligent, given I have known this entire time I was towing more than Toyota said I could.

And one beneficial side-effect is our long tows (I would love to tow into Canada!) will be with something that can deal with the weight effortlessly -- something that, once you subtract payload can still tow around 7000lbs should easily be able to deal with the 3800 (been to the CAT scales more than once - we've always traveled light) I've been lugging around for a while now...

One last thing -- I've slowly come to the conclusion that TrailManor's advertising is... a bit too self-serving. I mean, many TV's cannot tow what they advertise -- your average minivan that says it can tow 3800 can't when you factor in payload. But no one boldly says this -- it's all in the small print, and many who fail to do due-diligence are misled... In short, while many on this board are well-educated as to the physics surrounding towing and make rational decisions accordingly (both sides, Hatfield and McCoys, those with trucks and those without ), those who've not done the research might wander into TM's assertions a bit too trustingly. Of course, if my product's largest selling point was ease of towing, and my target demographic was in large part people whose vehicles can't tow a 25-28ft parachute, I bet I'd be tempted to push the envelope as well.

Anyway, thanks for the well-thought out response Mr. A!
John

And I hesitated to say this because I don't want it to come out wrong, but I must admit that if I suspected for a second that my towing over the limit somehow contributed to any accident, it would grieve me tremendously... so, it is an expensive decision, but one that I hope and pray will serve me well in the long run.

Thanks,
John

Edit: man, I love that pic of the 1911 Model K -- I don't know how I'll ever put the real tow vehicle in the sig...

[Mr. Adventure]

The ratings we've had up to now contain way too much marketing and not nearly enough engineering, and I agree with you that it's pretty goofy for manufacturers to advertise the tow vehicle payload as part of the tow capacity. Starting with the 2013 models, there are supposed to be new tow ratings that follow industry standards. Hopefully, this will result in good standards of comparison for consumers plus better and safer tow vehicles as well. However, it is my guess that these ratings will evolve slowly and that they may never properly appreciate the low center of gravity and lack of sway in our folding TrailManors.

Also, to your fears about negligence, I've done a lot of Internet searches, and never found a single case that seems to identify an RV loading condition as being the cause of an accident (except for the European youtube video, of course). Those legal terms you are using have specific standards of proof, and there's not much Google evidence that they have been applied in an RV context. There are some cases of improper hitching, and it's not hard to find more general "failure to maintain control of a motor vehicle" references. There are only a couple loss-of-control TrailManor accidents reported in this forum, which must collectively represent thousands of TM-years of experience.

(Parargraphs added)
Negligence is the primary ingredient of most accidents, and the possibility of accidents is why we carry insurance. In the case of simple property damage, they work it out as to whose insurance company is going to pay in a process most of us have had to deal with one way or another. Liability is a lot more fun for the lawyers when there is personal injury involved, and their work is all over the Internet these days as they try to make themselves sound like rocket scientists going on about how to get a lot of money when you are injured.

Their websites tell a lot about their business practices: Paragraph 1 tells about how great it is to own a recreational vehicle. Paragraph 2 is a lecture on how dealers sell these patently dangerous vehicles to unqualified drivers without checking them out or doing any training, just to make money. Paragraph 3 is the caption for the terrible accident video. Paragraph 4 lists all the possible ways for lawyers to insinuate liabilities upon other lawyer's clients that go all the way from a detached trailer to a cracked turn signal reflector, and yes, they wouldn't hesitate to subpoena your owners manual and the drivers' side doorpost placard if they thought it could be helpful for inflaming a jury. With the greedy trial lawyers and the juries that think this is all just like television, it seems pretty crazy out there. The only defenses against liability are careful driving and a good insurance policy. I wouldn't buy one for an RV that I didn't study carefully, particularly the section called "Exclusions".

I fault no one for errors on the side of safety, so long as it isn't an excuse for complacency while towing.

Cases of liability are usually attributed to blatant operator error or responsibility, DWI for example. There have been a few rare cases where a truck hits and kills somebody and the truck is latter found to be past inspection with severely faulty brakes etc. And the trucking company is held responsible.
Having said that it obviously makes more sense to be on the side of having a "positive" margin of safety vs a negative one.
Sounds like you would be more comfortable in a larger TV.
Enjoy.

Heh - no complacency here - one of the side-effects/benefits of towing with a lighter-duty vehicle for years is a careful attention to loading, weight distribution (CAT scales are your friend), long following distances, a constant scrutiny of brake performance, speed, and who knows what else...

I will agree though - that TM never sways on me and pulls nicely, although I do have a sway bar for sanity's sake...

Now I just have to pray that the vehicle I'm strongly considering buying has been well maintained (I seem to be an odd duck these days in that I actually take my van in for routine maintenance, change the tranny fluid yearly, etc.) -- for the life of me I can't get maintenance records on most of the vehicles I've checked out... one guy did confess that he routinely towed a 6000lb trailer with his Expy, and that he changed his tranny fluid every 30k - but he's 10 hours away...

I have this pipe dream that someone bought the truck I'm looking at with the HD towing package without ever actually towing with it -- or that they towed but had it meticulously maintained at their local mechanic -- hence the reason why I can't find maintenance records...

The Expeditions I have been around got similar or worse MPG than most of todays pickups. I understand the need for a versitile 3rd vehicle, it was just a statement that surprised me when you said you didn't want pickup MPG.

Good Post.....

Originally Posted by Redhawk

The Expeditions I have been around got similar or worse MPG than most of todays pickups. I understand the need for a versitile 3rd vehicle, it was just a statement that surprised me when you said you didn't want pickup MPG.

Good Post.....

Ah - the key is I don't want to endure those mpgs for a daily driver -- if I could get a pickup without significantly higher mileage than what I'm looking at in a crew cab for a 3rd vehicle I would (love the idea of using the bed for things like the wood, etc., which today I have to stick in various containers, etc.)...

My brother's selling his supercab, but I don't think my posse would fit as well in it -- not to mention that I know how he maintained it -- namely, he didn't. (except for necessary repairs)

I know first hand of a situation where some teens were turning off lights at houses, as a juvenile prank.

The driver of the get-away-car was charged with assault with a deadly weapon, because as they drove away there was a pedestrian that filed a complaint.

I have no idea if assault with a deadly weapon is a felony or not. I point this out only to demonstrate that charges might be filed far in excess of what you might think.