12V side not working on battery

[coralcruze]

12v side not working on battery. Checked the fuse at battery and it's fine... but no power to lights from batteries. Bath door is enguaging thr Mai. Push switch. What else could it be?

[coralcruze]

I stalled new LED patio lights and on the 2720 the negative side is grounded to the side of the TM. Is this an issue with LED lights?

[Wavery]

Originally Posted by coralcruze

12v side not working on battery. Checked the fuse at battery and it's fine... but no power to lights from batteries. Bath door is enguaging thr Mai. Push switch. What else could it be?

I'm not sure what that means but your bathroom wall must be up. Sometimes the switch on the bathroom wall doesn't push down all the way. You might try putting a small piece of carboard on it for a spacer. Is your battery charged?

[coralcruze]

Originally Posted by Wavery

I'm not sure what that means but your bathroom wall must be up. Sometimes the switch on the bathroom wall doesn't push down all the way. You might try putting a small piece of carboard on it for a spacer. Is your battery charged?

Sorry about that I meant bathroom walls are engaging the main switch. Just confirming that is not the issue.

[jagizzi]

My rear shell lights were intermittent. It ended up being the inline connector behind the fridge. You might check that.

[rickst29]

Originally Posted by coralcruze

12v side not working on battery. Checked the fuse at battery and it's fine... but no power to lights from batteries. Bath door is engaging the push switch. What else could it be?

Important: Both shells, or just one shell? And, does all of the interior ceiling lighting work correctly? If those LED lights DO work while plugged in, then it is an issue of insufficient voltage into the LEDs from the batteries. (You might think that the battery fuse looks fine, but the original TM inline battery fuses never failed by blowing the fuse -- they always failed by developing rust on the darned spring).

Are these only exterior lights, or interior as well?

In any case, you need to check the voltage on the leads which go into those fixtures, using a digital volt meter.

If voltage is ZERO, you have one kind of problem. If voltage is LOW but well above zero, then you have a different (and maybe harder) problem.

- - Zero Voltage - -

Somewhere, a wire is completely broken off, OR a switch hasn't been turned on. If the bathroom door switch is GOOD, and not merely pressed down, then the propane detector will be activated with a green light. If the overhead fan works, then the bathroom switch is OK *and* the front shell supply wire (connected behind the fridge) is also OK.

But if the propane detector came on while leaving the overhead fan dead, then most likely problem occurs behind the fridge. TM used a low-quality connector for the 12V wire into the roof, connecting just before the "bundle" which is made to go up the shell. This may have separated. Re-do that failed that butt-splice connector, with a better connector (such as a WAGO).

- - If well above zero, but less than 11 Volts - -

If less than 11 volts, then old style incandescent lights would definitely continue to work (with reduced light output). But the tiny "controller" chips which run the LEDs within LED fixtures might not be willing to "turn on" at all.

While plugged in, the "load center" provides more than 13 volts at all times. If voltage at the LED fixture is ZERO, then either a switch is off (bathroom door switch, or TM interior "courtesy light controller" switch by the front door, or the switch on the fixture itself) .... or a wire is actually broken/disconnected.

But, for the case of low voltage, you have many suspects. If failure occurs only with battery, first replace that battery fuse (AND it's holder) with a GOOD fuse, maybe one of these: https://smile.amazon.com/10-AWG-Inli...dp/B08K3NLV27/. Then check lamp lead voltage again.

Also check that the battery connection into the WFCO power center "DC circuit board" is tight (they can loosen over time). If you still have low voltage, in comparison to voltage at the actual battery terminals, the behind-the-fridge inline connectors are again a suspect, to be tightened or upgraded.

I can make a bunch of other and likely irrelevant guesses, but you haven't given us much to go from. To any more repair instructions, I will need to know:

1. From Battery only, or also failing while plugged in?
2. Both shells, or just one?
3. Does the fan run at all?
4. Interior lights, Exterior lights, or both locations?
5. Did you look only at the fuse, or have you ALREADY replaced the bad TM-original battery fuse holder with a good one?

Thanks for any answers you can provide, in advance.

[coralcruze]

Originally Posted by rickst29

Important: Both shells, or just one shell? And, does all of the interior ceiling lighting work correctly? If those LED lights DO work while plugged in, then it is an issue of insufficient voltage into the LEDs from the batteries. (You might think that the battery fuse looks fine, but the original TM inline battery fuses never failed by blowing the fuse -- they always failed by developing rust on the darned spring).

Are these only exterior lights, or interior as well?

In any case, you need to check the voltage on the leads which go into those fixtures, using a digital volt meter.

If voltage is ZERO, you have one kind of problem. If voltage is LOW but well above zero, then you have a different (and maybe harder) problem.

- - Zero Voltage - -

Somewhere, a wire is completely broken off, OR a switch hasn't been turned on. If the bathroom door switch is GOOD, and not merely pressed down, then the propane detector will be activated with a green light. If the overhead fan works, then the bathroom switch is OK *and* the front shell supply wire (connected behind the fridge) is also OK.

But if the propane detector came on while leaving the overhead fan dead, then most likely problem occurs behind the fridge. TM used a low-quality connector for the 12V wire into the roof, connecting just before the "bundle" which is made to go up the shell. This may have separated. Re-do that failed that butt-splice connector, with a better connector (such as a WAGO).

- - If well above zero, but less than 11 Volts - -

If less than 11 volts, then old style incandescent lights would definitely continue to work (with reduced light output). But the tiny "controller" chips which run the LEDs within LED fixtures might not be willing to "turn on" at all.

While plugged in, the "load center" provides more than 13 volts at all times. If voltage at the LED fixture is ZERO, then either a switch is off (bathroom door switch, or TM interior "courtesy light controller" switch by the front door, or the switch on the fixture itself) .... or a wire is actually broken/disconnected.

But, for the case of low voltage, you have many suspects. If failure occurs only with battery, first replace that battery fuse (AND it's holder) with a GOOD fuse, maybe one of these: https://smile.amazon.com/10-AWG-Inli...dp/B08K3NLV27/. Then check lamp lead voltage again.

Also check that the battery connection into the WFCO power center "DC circuit board" is tight (they can loosen over time). If you still have low voltage, in comparison to voltage at the actual battery terminals, the behind-the-fridge inline connectors are again a suspect, to be tightened or upgraded.

I can make a bunch of other and likely irrelevant guesses, but you haven't given us much to go from. To any more repair instructions, I will need to know:

1. From Battery only, or also failing while plugged in?
2. Both shells, or just one?
3. Does the fan run at all?
4. Interior lights, Exterior lights, or both locations?
5. Did you look only at the fuse, or have you ALREADY replaced the bad TM-original battery fuse holder with a good one?

Thanks for any answers you can provide, in advance.

Oh my gosh... this is tremendously helpful to me. I thank you for your thorough reply to my questions as this is the first time that I have the chance to sit and take all this in.

So first to reply to your questions to me.

1.my issues is occurring from battery only... All lights are working perfectly when plugged in. When selecting LED replacements I did so by selecting wattage that is less than that of the existing light fixtures. I think my issue is adding two more 3 watt much needed lights. My fault. One is connected to the propane sensor and the other is wired to the back storage and connected to that car 12v plug by the converter at the end of the hallway. Again this change worked on shore power when plugged in but not on battery only. My fault thinking that these much needed small 3 watt lights could be added. It's probably what you stated about being at 13v from the converter but batt voltage is less. I will take them off as I am sure thats what my issue is after reading your reply. I should know more soon and when I do I will report back with results... it sure would be nice to have at least that one 3w light in the storage compartment. I wonder if there is something I can connect to close to that rear storage compartment to have a light here that would run on battery? If not I will have to go back to a flashlight or separate battery operated light back there. can you confirm?
2. Both shells are down when on battery only but again probably due to adding two more lights.
3. No fan on battery only... works on shore power though.
4. Interior lights and patio lights are out on battery but work on shore power... running lights and break lights work on the Bargman but those are still the old lights at the moment. Bargman outlet is tested at 12.37v for running marker lights.
5.yes one of the first upgrades done was to a fuse holder you show with a 30v fuse in it which is intact so I unfortunately know about the issues you mentioned with the old style TM fuses.

So one thing I am def. going to do is work on that connection at the back of the refrigerator. I must admit that I am not positive which connector it is... I will have to really look at it and see. I will take a picture of the wires here and hopefully you can make heads or tails of it and be able to tell me which connectors need the upgrade. Almost everything here is connected using darn wire nuts and zip ties. Agrrr.

[jagizzi]

So if I am reading this correctly everything works fine while on shore power but does not work when on the battery. This points to an issue with the battery cabling running into the Power Center. The good thing is that it is not likely the two new lights that you installed so I wouldn't bother disconnecting those yet.

I would start by measuring voltage at the battery connector on the power center when the trailer is not plugged in. You should see 12+V there. If not, you know that the problem is in the cabling between the center and the battery. At that point it is a simple matter of tracing that cable from the battery to the center. I say simple but... it might not be ;-) It comes up through the floor behind the fridge, as do all of the other wires. That would be my guess as to the problem, somewhere in that bundle. After that it can be tough to trace. You can it going into the fridge space on the bottom of the trailer and a little wiggling and you can find out which one it is on the inside. It will go into wire nut connector first and then loop around the top of that space and come down the other side into the connectors we keep talking about. This is where it can get tough to trace the wire, but some patience, and the continuity test portion of your multimeter, and you can single it out.

The other easy thing to check is voltage on the individual circuits after the fuses in the power center, but from your description of the problem it is unlikely that the problem is there or the lights wouldnt work on shore power.

[rickst29]

Originally Posted by coralcruze

Oh my gosh... this is tremendously helpful to me. I thank you for your thorough reply to my questions as this is the first time that I have the chance to sit and take all this in.

So first to reply to your questions to me.

1.my issues is occurring from battery only... All lights are working perfectly when plugged in. When selecting LED replacements I did so by selecting wattage that is less than that of the existing light fixtures. I think my issue is adding two more 3 watt much needed lights. My fault. One is connected to the propane sensor and the other is wired to the back storage and connected to that car 12v plug by the converter at the end of the hallway. Again this change worked on shore power when plugged in but not on battery only. My fault thinking that these much needed small 3 watt lights could be added. It's probably what you stated about being at 13v from the converter but batt voltage is less. I will take them off as I am sure thats what my issue is after reading your reply. I should know more soon and when I do I will report back with results... it sure would be nice to have at least that one 3w light in the storage compartment. I wonder if there is something I can connect to close to that rear storage compartment to have a light here that would run on battery? If not I will have to go back to a flashlight or separate battery operated light back there. can you confirm?
2. Both shells are down when on battery only but again probably due to adding two more lights.
3. No fan on battery only... works on shore power though.
4. Interior lights and patio lights are out on battery but work on shore power... running lights and break lights work on the Bargman but those are still the old lights at the moment. Bargman outlet is tested at 12.37v for running marker lights.
5.yes one of the first upgrades done was to a fuse holder you show with a 30v fuse in it which is intact so I unfortunately know about the issues you mentioned with the old style TM fuses.

So one thing I am def. going to do is work on that connection at the back of the refrigerator. I must admit that I am not positive which connector it is... I will have to really look at it and see. I will take a picture of the wires here and hopefully you can make heads or tails of it and be able to tell me which connectors need the upgrade. Almost everything here is connected using darn wire nuts and zip ties. Agrrr.

This great post told me everything I need to know, thanks! Before I begin, a side comment: A mere 6 watts from 2 3-watt LEDs is not significant increase in power load. Any "increase" of less than 24 watts (only 2 amps at 12v) should be handled easily.
- - now for some instructions - -
You have made it clear (in answer #4) that there is nothing wrong with wire connectors behind the fridge, and nothing wrong with wires and connections within the two roof shells.

The working power converter connection goes into the 12-VDC fuse board, upper right side of the WFCO power panel (which would be a Parallax panel, in the same place, in a TM which is older than 2006). Everything "downstream" from fuse board is good (all of the fuses, AND the wires going behind the fridge, AND the connectors back there, AND the wires up and into the roofing shells, and all the terminals - for both fixtures and the fan). You don't need to look at those.

Your problem is 100% certainly within one of just 4 places.

1. The battery(s) have gone bad;
2. The BATTERY connector fuse on the WFCO or Parallax fuse Board has blown (or the wire has become loose);
3. The long wire from your battery pack(s) to the fuse board is broken or cut;
4. The grounding wire from your battery packs to the frame has become disconnected;

Near the panel in the lower bathroom wall, there is a 12v "cigarette" power socket. Plug in any compatible device and turn it on (e.g. a small inverter, or a battery charger, or a compatible cellphone charger). A genuine load would be nice to have. Then, open the power panel and test the voltage on the fuse board while TM is NOT plugged in on 120-VAC. Your "ground" comparison is the lug on the left of the panel, the one which connects all of the 120-VAC naked/green "safety ground" wires. (Not the lug for white wires.)

Test 1: I expect that voltage to be well below 12V. It may be zero.

Now disconnect the Battery wire from its terminal. For the case of the WFCO circuit board, this terminal is either the upper or lower left-side terminal. Also check that it's fuse is NOT blown.

Test 2: Check Voltage on the wire alone - you should have the same reading as above. But if Voltage is good (12v or higher), then the problem is the fuse (replace it) or the whole fuse board (which can be replaced, but it is a part to be ordered). If voltage was good, stop here and post back.

Test 3: Re-check at your battery "+12v" terminal(s) versus the TM frame lug, and also re-check following your new in-line battery located fuse out put wire, where it connects the TM "long wire" running to the fuse board. If both show 12v or greater, but test 2 Voltage was low, then it is the long wire - and you need to replace it.

If batteries are up front, I would replace the AWG-10 wire originally supplied by TM with a bigger AWG-8 wire, but AWG-10 would also be OK. It just has higher resistance. I would also prefer to use red color, but you don't have to do that.

[coralcruze]

Originally Posted by rickst29

Your problem is 100% certainly within one of just 4 places.

1. The battery(s) have gone bad;
2. The BATTERY connector fuse on the WFCO or Parallax fuse Board has blown (or the wire has become loose);
3. The long wire from your battery pack(s) to the fuse board is broken or cut;
4. The grounding wire from your battery packs to the frame has become disconnected;

Near the panel in the lower bathroom wall, there is a 12v "cigarette" power socket. Plug in any compatible device and turn it on (e.g. a small inverter, or a battery charger, or a compatible cellphone charger). A genuine load would be nice to have. Then, open the power panel and test the voltage on the fuse board while TM is NOT plugged in on 120-VAC. Your "ground" comparison is the lug on the left of the panel, the one which connects all of the 120-VAC naked/green "safety ground" wires. (Not the lug for white wires.)

Test 1: I expect that voltage to be well below 12V. It may be zero.

Now disconnect the Battery wire from its terminal. For the case of the WFCO circuit board, this terminal is either the upper or lower left-side terminal. Also check that it's fuse is NOT blown.

Test 2: Check Voltage on the wire alone - you should have the same reading as above. But if Voltage is good (12v or higher), then the problem is the fuse (replace it) or the whole fuse board (which can be replaced, but it is a part to be ordered). If voltage was good, stop here and post back.

Test 3: Re-check at your battery "+12v" terminal(s) versus the TM frame lug, and also re-check following your new in-line battery located fuse out put wire, where it connects the TM "long wire" running to the fuse board. If both show 12v or greater, but test 2 Voltage was low, then it is the long wire - and you need to replace it.

If batteries are up front, I would replace the AWG-10 wire originally supplied by TM with a bigger AWG-8 wire, but AWG-10 would also be OK. It just has higher resistance. I would also prefer to use red color, but you don't have to do that.

I will definitely be doing this in a weeks time when I get to a campground. i will report my findings.

I did forget to mention that I have a battery disconnect up front in the battery box. not sure is this could play into this at all.

I did test the battery itself and is giving me over 12V using a multimeter.

when you say long wire from the battery to the fuse board... do you mean the main three wire which enters into a junction box under the trailer? I did find that TM installed this wire with a tight bend and it had cracks in the line. I did fix this with heavy duty shrink wrap and will upload the pic. I intend on replacing this wire as soon as I get a chance to do so.

I did check all fuses in the converter and all of the 7.5 volt fuses on the 12V side are intact as well as all of the other 120V fuses.

I am unsure if this helps but I removed my first marker light also since I purchased all new LED markers to replace the existing old incandescent. Tested voltage of the green marker slot on the bargman at the towing vehicle and it was 12.37 volts. The TM wired very short wire incandescent bulbs which I had to cut out and connecting the first marker light temporarily to this wire was tricky with almost no wire slack to do so. when I connected my first running light it lit up. However, that was the last time the front and rear marker lights worked before everything went down on the 12V side. I had to extend the front half white and green marker lights so they would reach the install holes in the front cap. However, again, when I hooked up all four of the front marker lights they did not come on at all. Thought I would mention this as well.

Latly, I had some water enter into the skylight and do some damage to that switch in the skylight that controls the two lights over the bed. Since it was in bad shape and we rarely turn these lights on/off this way I cut out that switch and connected the wires to circumvent this feature. lights at the bed did turn on and off independently on shore power after doing this change.

my appologies forgetting to mention these two details but thought to mention them as well.