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Old 09-12-2010, 12:04 AM   #21
ThePair
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I have to agree with Mr. Adventure, here.

When a manufacturer places a tow rating on a vehicle, there are many, many factors that go into that rating, and only one is "can the vehicle tow this amount". My own statements on this topic:

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I live in the Midwest, where the terrain is low and flat. I can get away with a lot more than those who live/travel to the mountains, for example.

Towing a TM which is low and minimizes sway will obviously be a better situation than towing an upright of the same or less weight. And yet, the weight ratings don't take any of that into account. For that reason, I do feel safe towing a TM at the "limit", as it were. This is a matter of some discussion and debate, and obviously each person must make up their own mind as to what is safe and what isn't. I personally refuse to believe that 3500# is some magic number above which everything goes splat. There is overengineering, legal considerations, marketing, etc. that goes into these decisions as much as the actual capacities of the vehicles.
Is it any coincidence that many vehicles fall into "3500#" or "5000#" towing capacities? How is it possible that different manufacturers somehow managed to engineer multiple vehicles, and all end up with exactly the same capacities? Or, perhaps these are essentially categories to give a "soft" indication of the towing duty that is expected with this type of vehicle? They lump these cars together, so that those needing more capacity choose a vehicle that is a class (or more) above, so that they do not cannibalize their own sales. Far easier to conform to a "minimum standard" than to actually determine a true tow capacity for each model year of each vehicle.

Honda, for a while, listed their Odyssey (IIRC) as having a 3500# trailer capacity, and a 4500# boat towing capacity. Clearly, they were making a nod to the differences in towing a box and a boat, with the aerodynamics of the boat clearly having an effect on the towing capabilities. Where does a folding TM fit into that? I'd argue that it's more like towing a boat than a Travel Trailer. But, Toyota doesn't split out a difference; they just go for the lowest common denominator. Clearly, there must be some wiggle room, especially since the Toyota vehicles do not ascribe to the "any cargo in the TV must be subtracted from the tow capacity" line of thinking. A Sienna has more ability to tow than an Odyssey, or most other "3500#" capacity minivans, because Toyota is clearly putting more tow power into their vehicles. Yet, it's still ranked as a 3500# capacity. Funny, that. Unless one looks at the other Toyota vehicles, and other minivans, and concludes that perhaps there's more than just towing engineering involved in all of this. Other vehicles with the same rating don't have the same wheelbase, same geometries, same axle capacities, etc. etc. Perhaps it's a comment on transmission longevity; I'll accept that to use my Sienna to tow.

I know that my TM is right at the max weight rating. I know that the rest of my vehicle isn't, even when loaded for camping. I know I have a TM with a low frontal cross-section, that sits nicely in the draft of my vehicle. I know that I'm towing in the midwest, low altitude and no major grades. I know that I can stop in an emergency situation as fast or faster than the vehicles around me, who aren't towing anything (tested that, unfortunately--the guy behind me pulled onto the shoulder, but I stopped fine).

Again, it's all a matter of what you feel safe doing. If I didn't think what I was doing was safe, I wouldn't risk my family doing it, or anyone else on the road. I can stop my vehicle just using the TM brakes. I have known people whose own car brakes stopped working. Accidents can always happen, and we need to do what we can to minimize the risks involved, sure. But, I will continue to contend that, in my particular circumstances, I think that I am operating within reasonably safe measures. Unforeseen things can happen at any time, not just to those towing a trailer.

If I worried about every possible eventuality, I wouldn't leave the house. My normal daily commute is probably far more dangerous than the 5 times/year I tow my TM.

SiennaChat boards had a long, long thread on towing a while back. I know I'm not the only one with this opinion. Yes, this is a big IMO, but so is everything else from everyone else, until we can actually get an automotive engineer to tell us specifics.
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Old 09-12-2010, 02:09 AM   #22
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Is it any coincidence that many vehicles fall into "3500#" or "5000#" towing capacities? How is it possible that different manufacturers somehow managed to engineer multiple vehicles, and all end up with exactly the same capacities? Or, perhaps these are essentially categories to give a "soft" indication of the towing duty that is expected with this type of vehicle?
The reason that most vehicles fall into 3500# or 5000# towing capacities is that the weakest link in most towing equations is the hitch. Class 2 hitches are rated 360/3500# and class 3 hitches are rated at 500/5000#. Example: A vehicle may be capable of towing 3945#, however, it is equipped with a class 2 350/3500# receiver hitch because that hitch is within it's towing capabilities. If it was equipped with a class 3 500/5000# hitch, then someone would try to tow more than the vehicle was rated for simply because the hitch is stamped 500/5000# capacity. This could lead to legal confrontations.
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Old 09-12-2010, 09:13 AM   #23
Mr. Adventure
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The reason that most vehicles fall into 3500# or 5000# towing capacities is that the weakest link in most towing equations is the hitch. Class 2 hitches are rated 360/3500# and class 3 hitches are rated at 500/5000#. Example: A vehicle may be capable of towing 3945#, however, it is equipped with a class 2 350/3500# receiver hitch because that hitch is within it's towing capabilities. If it was equipped with a class 3 500/5000# hitch, then someone would try to tow more than the vehicle was rated for simply because the hitch is stamped 500/5000# capacity. This could lead to legal confrontations.
You raise a good point about being careful about checking out the stuff that came with your vehicle. The worst words we've heard lately in this forum are "Not for use with a Weight Distributing Hitch." But, you can buy a variety of hitch receivers for most cars and light trucks. In the remote event that people actually read anything stamped on their hitch receiver, hopefully they will also have been reading the drivers' side doorpost and the owner's manual where the print is more distinct and the light is better.

We live in a litigious society, where people even try to make money with a Prius by pretending that it has runaway acceleration (the idea that it's little 4 banger has the juice to overpower the brakes is a hoot). From the cases you can find on the Internet, real legal confrontations are about things like who was driving too fast for conditions, who lost control of their vehicle, and who had too much speed left over at the point of impact. I haven't been able to find a single case with legal energy spent trying to understand towing figures, but I'd love to hear about them.

And this conversation raises one more good point:
Most of us are using Class III hitches (500/5000) (with a quick look at etrailer.com, I couldn't find a class IV hitch to be available for Toyota Highlanders, or a Ford Explorer or Chevy Astro either, for that matter). Is that tongue weight limit number before or after the WDH is applied? For a hitch receiver, I'd guess it's probably before. Is there a consequence associated with a 650# TrailManor tongue on that receiver? Yet, I haven't heard of 500# hitch receivers failing. I'm getting more gray here, but others who see things in black and white will need to own more substantial tow vehicles that can support Class IV hitches.

"Is it any coincidence that many vehicles fall into "3500#" or "5000#" towing capacities? How is it possible that different manufacturers somehow managed to engineer multiple vehicles, and all end up with exactly the same capacities? " (from ThePair)
Manufacturers are obviously consolidating towing capacities into broad bands and not publishing more accurate figures that get us closer to what they really know. There have to be marketing pressures to push vehicles into the next higher category, but nobody on the outside knows whether the resistance those marketing pressures are pushing against is made out of transmission warranties or brake pads. Again, I'm getting gray here, not black or white.
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Old 09-12-2010, 11:20 AM   #24
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<snip>
We need to be staying out of the left lane as much as possible, IMO.
<snip>
In California, anything towing anything, on a multi-lane road, must remain in the right most lane if there are two lanes, and must remain in the right most two lanes if there are three or more lanes.

And anything towing anything has a top speed of 55 mph, less when posted.

That does not mean this is what people actually do. I have seen a truck towing a fifth wheel, both with California plates, in the fourth lane from the right, at 65 mph. An this was in San Jose, not out in the middle of nowhere like I5.
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Old 09-12-2010, 11:28 AM   #25
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"Physics is not a study of "guidelines", it a study of laws."

I can't imagine hanging my family over a cliff for any reason with any rope.
We do this frequently. It is called an elevator, but it does have safety brakes.

I have a spool of elevator cable that I have had for hears. It is about 1/8 inch in diameter. It is rated for 6,000 pounds.

I doubt that an elevator weighs much more than 12,000 pounds, even when loaded with passengers, but I am guessing.

Have you ever seen how many cables are used in an elevator? There must be a reason.
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Old 09-12-2010, 11:33 AM   #26
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If I worried about every possible eventuality, I wouldn't leave the house. My normal daily commute is probably far more dangerous than the 5 times/year I tow my TM.
Sadly, if you have been watching the news, many homes in San Bruno, CA were recently blown to pieces when a 30 inch diameter natural gas pipe failed.

Staying home is not as safe as you might think.
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Old 09-12-2010, 11:37 AM   #27
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A lot of people forget to ad the Ball mount to the tongue weight. I was surprised that mine weighs around 65 lbs plus the two weight distribution arm at about 15 lbs each for a total of 95 lbs added to the tongue weight.
I always considered the tongue weight to be everything behind the tow ball. My thinking is that the tongue weight rating is related to how much weight can be carried before the tongue of the trailer begins to collapse.

If you read my posts in 2005/2006 then you will remember the cracked frame issue I had at the point where the swing away tongue is welded to the frame.

I am much more concerned about tongue failure than hitch bar failure. But that is not exactly what is being discussed in this discussion.
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Old 09-12-2010, 01:42 PM   #28
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This thread reminds me a lot of discussions at work. What is really being talked about is 'margin' - the difference between the point you are operating at and the point at which failure happens. Adding margin is expensive and inconvenient. And, it is hard to know exactly where these two points are. I don't like running out of margin so I get an oversized tow vehicle and pay the price in upfront cost and operating expenses. Of course, I could sell the trailer and guarantee myself that I'll never have a towing accident but that is not acceptable either. So far when bad things have happened, I have always had adequate margin and no one got hurt.
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Old 09-12-2010, 03:34 PM   #29
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We do this frequently. It is called an elevator, but it does have safety brakes.

I have a spool of elevator cable that I have had for years. It is about 1/8 inch in diameter. It is rated for 6,000 pounds...
That sounds like exactly what we need, though a bit overrated for 1/8" I think, so it's probably a bit thicker that you're remembering. Maybe we should test it with a couple cows or something first.

By the way, while I have you on the line, I wanted to tell you that I'm real sure that if I ever have the pleasure of meeting you (some scenic spot in Kansas, perhaps) I'll be much more interested in having a beer than in a reverse drag race going from 60-0.
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Old 09-13-2010, 06:53 AM   #30
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This thread reminds me a lot of discussions at work. What is really being talked about is 'margin' - the difference between the point you are operating at and the point at which failure happens. Adding margin is expensive and inconvenient. And, it is hard to know exactly where these two points are. I don't like running out of margin so I get an oversized tow vehicle and pay the price in upfront cost and operating expenses. Of course, I could sell the trailer and guarantee myself that I'll never have a towing accident but that is not acceptable either. So far when bad things have happened, I have always had adequate margin and no one got hurt.

Thank you Mr. A for all the numbers up front of this post. Very good to have hard data. Nice conversation going on.

Thanks WBMiller for the idea of margin. Been doing that a long time but never had the correct term for it. As you can tell by my signature I too like to have a little " margin " left over.

As someone who is no longer on the forum used to say about choices...

" Ain't America Grand "
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