What it Really Weighs

ED-n-KEL,

I believe Mr Adventure was directly quoting from the trailmanor.com webpage. In fact I have found the exact language at the following link: http://trailmanor.com/WebDocs/Campin...-vehicles.html

The factory is usually talking about an unloaded trailer which many people have detailed what does or does not go in to that. Also, the factory is assuming properly functioning trailer brakes. As you may have noticed, there are users of this forum that believe you should tow with a vehicle that has adequate stopping power even if the trailer brakes fail.

Originally Posted by Kevin Krause

ED-n-KEL,

I believe Mr Adventure was directly quoting from the trailmanor.com webpage. In fact I have found the exact language at the following link: http://trailmanor.com/WebDocs/Campin...-vehicles.html

Oh, ok. I was wondering "what the heck??"
My point would then be aimed at TRAILMANOR directly.... how can they say that when the users are here, and have continued to come up with higher numbers? A TV with a TC of 3500 or even 4000 is simply not enough for even the smallest TM.

Anyone knowingly towing over the capacity of their TV is as irresponsible as someone driving "under the influence". Basically, your behavior is a danger to you and everyone around you on the road. It's not a matter of "your opinion", it's a matter of what is safe, and this practice is obviously NOT SAFE. Someone driving after drinking 1 beer may feel "all is well", until he kills a family. He ends up in jail.

Originally Posted by Kevin Krause

ED-n-KEL,

I believe Mr Adventure was directly quoting from the trailmanor.com webpage. In fact I have found the exact language at the following link: http://trailmanor.com/WebDocs/Campin...-vehicles.html

The factory is usually talking about an unloaded trailer which many people have detailed what does or does not go in to that. Also, the factory is assuming properly functioning trailer brakes. As you may have noticed, there are users of this forum that believe you should tow with a vehicle that has adequate stopping power even if the trailer brakes fail.

The instructions for most brake controllers (Prodigy, etc.) say that you should adjust it so that you can lock the trailer brakes at 25 mph.

I have never been able to lock the TM brakes, even when the brakes are properly adjusted. I do not think it is possible to even come close to skidding at any speed. Therefore, I conclude that in a panic stop, some of the braking power of the entire combination comes at least partly from the TV.

The TM brakes help, but I have no reason to believe that the TM brakes are adequate for stopping the TM. many people claim that the TV brakes will stop the TV and the trailer brakes will stop the trailer.

I do not believe that to be anywhere near accurate.

I know that with the brakes on my 6,000 pound truck I can stop the TV and the TM. The brakes on the 4,100 pound TM will come nowhere close to stopping the TV.

If there was a way to run a side by side test of the TM braking versus my truck braking, I have no doubt that the truck would win.

The TM brakes help, but not by all that much, IMO.

Next time you are towing down the freeway at 55 mph, set the brake controller to maximum boost and manually engage the TM brakes for about 10 seconds and see how much it slows you down. Then set the brake controller to minimum boost and hit the brakes in the TV. I would expect you to find a huge difference.

If the brakes were to fail, I would prefer the TM brakes to fail than the truck brakes to fail.

I would love to hear about any flaws in my thinking.

[Mr. Adventure]

Originally Posted by ED-n-KEL

Oh, ok. I was wondering "what the heck??"
My point would then be aimed at TRAILMANOR directly.... how can they say that when the users are here, and have continued to come up with higher numbers? A TV with a TC of 3500 or even 4000 is simply not enough for even the smallest TM.

Anyone knowingly towing over the capacity of their TV is as irresponsible as someone driving "under the influence". Basically, your behavior is a danger to you and everyone around you on the road. It's not a matter of "your opinion", it's a matter of what is safe, and this practice is obviously NOT SAFE. Someone driving after drinking 1 beer may feel "all is well", until he kills a family. He ends up in jail.

You are mistaken. For other than commercial vehicles or heavy trucks, towing limits are simply guidelines that are proposed by manufacturere from a variety of factors (including transmission durability, for example), and are not referenced in the motor vehicle code of any of the states I went looking at. Please see if you can find a reference that says otherwise.

There is no vehicle that is automatically safe, and very few vehicles being used the way they were intended are automatically dangerous. What makes vehicles dangerous is how they're driven. Please go ask a state patrol cop about all this (especially your comparison to DUI), and share with us what you learned.

From the simple physics, all vehicles are substantially safer at slower speeds. Everyone has substantially more "safe" towing capacity at 50mph than at 75. If you drive appropriately for your load and conditions, you are driving responsibly in my state, and probably yours, too. This is a gray business, not a black and white business. I submit that it would be more dangerous to hop on the interstate with overconfidence from the scale numbers than it would be to thoughtfully and cautiously tow a TrailManor a few hundred pounds above the GCWR.

[Mr. Adventure]

Originally Posted by PopBeavers

The instructions for most brake controllers (Prodigy, etc.) say that you should adjust it so that you can lock the trailer brakes at 25 mph.

I have never been able to lock the TM brakes, even when the brakes are properly adjusted. I do not think it is possible to even come close to skidding at any speed. Therefore, I conclude that in a panic stop, some of the braking power of the entire combination comes at least partly from the TV.

The TM brakes help, but I have no reason to believe that the TM brakes are adequate for stopping the TM. many people claim that the TV brakes will stop the TV and the trailer brakes will stop the trailer.

I do not believe that to be anywhere near accurate.

I know that with the brakes on my 6,000 pound truck I can stop the TV and the TM. The brakes on the 4,100 pound TM will come nowhere close to stopping the TV.

If there was a way to run a side by side test of the TM braking versus my truck braking, I have no doubt that the truck would win.

The TM brakes help, but not by all that much, IMO.

Next time you are towing down the freeway at 55 mph, set the brake controller to maximum boost and manually engage the TM brakes for about 10 seconds and see how much it slows you down. Then set the brake controller to minimum boost and hit the brakes in the TV. I would expect you to find a huge difference.

If the brakes were to fail, I would prefer the TM brakes to fail than the truck brakes to fail.

I would love to hear about any flaws in my thinking.

Your thinking is right on. There is no way that your stopping distance is going to be the same towing as it is driving solo. We need to be staying out of the left lane as much as possible, IMO.

I posted a recent experience about driving without the trailer brakes that makes me confident I can stop without them, but also confident that it would take longer. It wouldn't be fun in traffic.

[Bill]

Wayne -

Like Mr Adventure, I agree with your basic premise. However, let's separate the two issues of 1) stopping during complete TM brake failure and 2) stopping with normally-operating trailer brakes.

In the case of complete TM brake failure, I expect it to take roughly twice the distance to stop the TM+tow vehicle as it takes to stop the tow vehicle alone. That is because the TM weighs roughly the same as the tow vehicle, so the tow vehicle brakes have to cope with twice as much weight. Of course you get farther on the wrong side of this equation if you have a lighter tow vehicle. That is one of things that scares me about lightweight tow vehicles - and I think it scares you, too.

As for normally-operationg trailer brakes, I have been able to lock the trailer brakes under only one set of conditions. That was when my first TM was new, and I brought it home from the dealer with no load in it, and I hit the brakes hard on a sandy patch of asphalt at low speed. That is not a normal situation, of course, so you can't draw any conclusions from it.

Once I loaded some stuff into the TM, I could never again lock the brakes. I'm sure you know, from your motorcycle experience especially, that locked brakes do not produce the shortest stops - slightly short of locked is better. So I'm not sure what conclusion to draw from "I can't lock the brakes."

Nonetheless, I agree that in the real world, the TM probably cannot stop itself as fast as the TV stops. After all, it has only two brakes, not four (though the size may differ). So the TV does some of the braking for the TM. The added braking load on the TV should be relatively small, though - my expectation is that the TM should do almost all of its own stopping.

Both you and I have experienced TM brake failure, and we agree that it isn't fun. And we agree that the TV needs to be able to handle the situation, even in non-idela conditions - downhill, high speed, etc.

Bill

[cochise]

Originally Posted by brulaz

I measured both my TV+Trailer (which gives 3 axle weights plus total) and TV alone (2 axles weights + total). Subtracting the two totals gives your trailer's total weight or GVW. Then subtracting the trailer's axle weight from that will give your trailer's tongue weight.

A lot of people forget to ad the Ball mount to the tongue weight. I was surprised that mine weighs around 65 lbs plus the two weight distribution arm at about 15 lbs each for a total of 95 lbs added to the tongue weight. I had my Elkmont tongue weighed at a place in AZ. It was just shy of 600 lbs with the trailer empty, but with the two gas tanks full.

You are right Brulaz, it would have been nice if the axle had been placed just a foot or two further forward, that would have made for a better use of the truck bed for items brought along. I have my Yamaha gen., (75 lbs) on in the bed plus my grill, a tool box and a spare 5 gal can of gas.

[Mr. Adventure]

"Mr Adventure, I'm a bit confused with your post...
If I'm reading your post correctly, your 3023 actually weighed 3520 lbs."
Sorry, there are a lot of numbers. To clarify, The total 3023 weight was 3940#. The axle weight hitched was 3520#, and unhitched was 3434# (the difference is the extra weight on the trailer axle caused by the WDH).

"A lot of people forget to ad the Ball mount to the tongue weight."
For these weighings, the ball mount stayed with the TV and the hitch spring bars stayed with the trailer, laid across the tongue. So the bars weighed with the trailer (mostly added to the tongue) and the hitch ball mount weighed in like it was part of the tow vehicle.

It is unclear how our manufacturers want the weight of the hitch to be considered. Certainly the weight of the hitch is in there somewhere for GCWR, and it eventually hits the pavement on one axle or another. But I don't remember any manufacturer telling us that we should add the weight of the hitch to the tongue weight of the trailer. It is also unclear whether in limits for tongue weights the manufacturers are addressing the dead weight of the trailer tongue or the effective weight when hitched with a WDH (from a vehicle-handling-on-the-road perspective, the latter is a breeze compared to the former).

"...it would have been nice if the axle had been placed just a foot or two further forward, that would have made for a better use of the truck bed for items brought along."
The best tow vehicles have the rear axle as far back as possible. This provides maximum wheelbase and minimum overhang. Overhang is the distance from the hitch ball to the rear axle, and represents the lever arm your trailer tries to use for lifting the front wheels off the ground and making steering decisions for you on it's own. Things that increase wheelbase or reduce overhang are good things for tow vehicles. A low overhang-to-wheelbase ratio is probably a more important parameter for tow vehicle evaluation than wheelbase (Fifth wheel rigs and Semi trucks drive this number to zero by placing the hitch point on the rear axle).

Originally Posted by Mr. Adventure

You are mistaken.

I may have been mistaken about it being illegal to drive while over your TC, but this is just another example of when a law should be in place because common sense isn't enough. If you have a TV with a 3500 TC and you are towing 4000+, you may not be illegal, but you're definitely not being responsible....much the same way a person can drink one beer and still be legally sober, the act itself is irresponsible, legal or not. In both cases, the driving unit is compromised.

Originally Posted by Mr. Adventure

From the simple physics, all vehicles are substantially safer at slower speeds. Everyone has substantially more "safe" towing capacity at 50mph than at 75. If you drive appropriately for your load and conditions, you are driving responsibly in my state, and probably yours, too. This is a gray business, not a black and white business. I submit that it would be more dangerous to hop on the interstate with overconfidence from the scale numbers than it would be to thoughtfully and cautiously tow a TrailManor a few hundred pounds above the GCWR.

Physics is not a study of "guidelines", it a study of laws.
Speed may be a factor in safety, but it has no relationship on tow capacity. That is a mental illusion for justification purposes. You may be safer, but fact are facts, you're still over the rated tow capacity of your TV.
Many TVs state that anything in your TV should be subtracted for your TC, including driver, passengers, luggage, and even fuel. These could add as much as 1000 lbs above and beyond the weight of the TM.

Going back to one of my previous post, how many people would go out and buy a piece of rope rated at 3500 lbs and then knowingly hang their entire 4000 lb family over a cliff with it. Wouldn't you buy a piece of rope rated at 5,000 lbs if given the choice?

In closing, I think people are going to do what people are going to do, but I don't think bad practices should be condoned here. TC always seems to be a "gray area" by those trying to justify a marginal TV. For me, it is very "black and white" in that I would never tow beyond my rated TC...period.

It's been stated numerous times that almost all versions of TMs are over 3500 lbs, meaning any TV with a 3500 lbs TC should not be considered.
IMHO, I think the MINIMUM TC for a TV should be 5000 lbs for any size TM. For mountainous or severe conditions, I think 6000-7000 lbs TC should be considered. This is roughly a standard 1/2 ton P/U (F150) with a small V8 and by no means is a heavy duty vehicle. Many of today's so called SUVs are merely car chassis with a SUV body bolted on it, including mini vans. People have illusions that these types of TVs are "trucks", but there are not.
I have an opinion, you have an opinion, and the next guy will have an opinion. That's the nature of the beast. If anyone here feels my opinion puts their family in an unsafe situation, please let me know.
(NOTE: "Safe" = driving safe and mechanically safe.)

[Mr. Adventure]

Originally Posted by ED-n-KEL

I may have been mistaken about it being illegal to drive while over your TC, but this is just another example of when a law should be in place because common sense isn't enough. If you have a TV with a 3500 TC and you are towing 4000+, you may not be illegal, but you're definitely not being responsible....much the same way a person can drink one beer and still be legally sober, the act itself is irresponsible, legal or not. In both cases, the driving unit is compromised.

Physics is not a study of "guidelines", it a study of laws.
Speed may be a factor in safety, but it has no relationship on tow capacity. That is a mental illusion for justification purposes. You may be safer, but fact are facts, you're still over the rated tow capacity of your TV.
Many TVs state that anything in your TV should be subtracted for your TC, including driver, passengers, luggage, and even fuel. These could add as much as 1000 lbs above and beyond the weight of the TM.

Going back to one of my previous post, how many people would go out and buy a piece of rope rated at 3500 lbs and then knowingly hang their entire 4000 lb family over a cliff with it. Wouldn't you buy a piece of rope rated at 5,000 lbs if given the choice?

In closing, I think people are going to do what people are going to do, but I don't think bad practices should be condoned here. TC always seems to be a "gray area" by those trying to justify a marginal TV. For me, it is very "black and white" in that I would never tow beyond my rated TC...period.

It's been stated numerous times that almost all versions of TMs are over 3500 lbs, meaning any TV with a 3500 lbs TC should not be considered.
IMHO, I think the MINIMUM TC for a TV should be 5000 lbs for any size TM. For mountainous or severe conditions, I think 6000-7000 lbs TC should be considered. This is roughly a standard 1/2 ton P/U (F150) with a small V8 and by no means is a heavy duty vehicle. Many of today's so called SUVs are merely car chassis with a SUV body bolted on it, including mini vans. People have illusions that these types of TVs are "trucks", but there are not.
I have an opinion, you have an opinion, and the next guy will have an opinion. That's the nature of the beast. If anyone here feels my opinion puts their family in an unsafe situation, please let me know.
(NOTE: "Safe" = driving safe and mechanically safe.)

"Physics is not a study of "guidelines", it a study of laws."
You're right. Engineering is a study of guidelines.


...you're still over the rated tow capacity of your TV."

The numbers show that my tow vehicle is rated to tow 4700# if the tow capacity is figured the way it's figured for your Astro. I'm within GVWR, GCWR, and all axle load limits.

Going back to one of my previous post, how many people would go out and buy a piece of rope rated at 3500 lbs and then knowingly hang their entire 4000 lb family over a cliff with it. Wouldn't you buy a piece of rope rated at 5,000 lbs if given the choice?
I can't imagine hanging my family over a cliff for any reason with any rope.

"For me, it is very "black and white" in that I would never tow beyond my rated TC...period."

I'd bet the price of a weigh ticket that I could find something, somewhere about your Astro, hitch, TM, and load that doesn't meet a spec somewhere. We all are safer on the road when our mental energy is conscious of the possible weaknesses in our rigs instead of finding comfort in "common sense" and the things we know for sure that might not always be really true.

There are problems with making manufacturer's tow ratings into laws. For openers, they are based on lots of soft information. Manufacturers don't do it the same way, and it's even possible that no manufacturer uses the sort of rigor that would need to be the basis of proper and enforceable laws. Some manufacturers overstate the limits, some are more conservative. We have no idea how limits were calculated or where the limiting factors are. We don't know what fudge factors are already in them. Tow ratings are meant to be guidelines, and are not suitable as the laws you might like them to be.

It turns out that different members of this board have some very different objectives in choosing their tow vehicles. Some want the best tow vehicle there is. Some want vehicles with special capabilities. I just want to be able to use the vehicle I want to drive to work every day, and ideally, a vehicle I already have.

"Many of today's so called SUVs are merely car chassis with a SUV body bolted on it, including mini vans. People have illusions that these types of TVs are "trucks", but there are not."
The type of chassis does not have anything to do with the engineering side of a tow rating, and I wouldn't expect the words "truck" or "SUV" to appear in any equations.

"I don't think bad practices should be condoned here. "

I have no problem with others' opinions or the tow vehicle decisions they choose to make. I have a problem with people projecting their personal opinions into laws and labeling those in violation as grossly negligent felons. This, to me, would be a bad practice.

I'll ask one rhetorical question: Is this board open to all TrailManor owners' experience, or only those whose tow vehicles are considered worthy by people who have strong opinions without any personal experience?