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Old 10-18-2007, 06:07 AM   #1
Mike Cutlip
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Default Experience in towing with mid-sized SUV?

I am interested in a TrailManor as I am considering purchasing a Subaru Tribeca (256-hp 6-cylinder) that can pull 3500 lbs. I would like to be reassured that this type of vehicle can successfully deal with the small TrailManor such as the Model 2619. Thanks for any comments...
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Old 10-18-2007, 08:37 AM   #2
mgoblue911
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Default Mid-sized SUV

I currently tow my 2007 3023 with my Pacifica (rated at 3500 pounds). I have not experienced any towing problems, even in the hilly areas of south-central Kentucky. However, because we are so close to the capacity rating, we pack very light, never tow with the water reservoir full, and put very little in the trailer. I do have a WDH and Prodigy brake controller installed. Also, I pick my merge opportunities very conservatively. All said, I am looking forward to upgrading my TV in the near future, but do not feel that I am recklessly endangering myself or others.
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Old 10-18-2007, 10:44 AM   #3
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Mike,

We tow our 2720SL with my wife's Toyota FJ Cruiser. It has a 239 horsepower V6. I will say we also have a weight distribution hitch and that makes a huge difference leveling the load. You don't feel like the rear end of your TV is squatting, everything rides level and we havent encountered any swaying. We did drive it back to Florida from Maryland so we did encounter a few pretty good size hills between home and there and never had a problem. Good luck and enjoy your TM.
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Old 10-18-2007, 11:27 AM   #4
mtnguy
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OK Mike, I hafta add my .02 worth here.

Tribeca wheelbase........108.2"
Minimum recommended wheelbase for a 20' trailer........110"

Check out: http://www.rvtowingtips.com/how-long.htm

If you go by the 2nd chart, things change, but a 108" vehicle isn't listed...it starts @ 110". TMs would probably fall somewhere between these 2 charts.....not a traditional TT with the frontal and side areas to be considered in chart #1, but more that a flatbed or boat referred to in chart #2. Did that confuss ya, huh, huh??

Tribeca tow rating........3500 lbs.
My 2720 loaded lightly (but not ready for camping) and water tanks empty.....3400 lbs.
Add 26 gals of water, 3 gals in toilet......240 lbs.
Add clothes, cookware, food, and other camping supplies......~100 lbs.
Total...............3740 lbs.

The horsepower should not be a problem. The torque might be a little on the low side.

I couldn't get the info from the website whether the Tribeca uses a unibody setup or not........I would think a vehicle with a frame should be a better tow vehicle.

Nothing against Subarus.......I think they are great vehicles..........I have friends that get over 200k miles on them before they trade. Just wanted you to be aware of the many factors that determine whether a vehicle would be a "successful" tow vehicle. There have been numerous discussions that have already been posted on this forum. Check out threads under "Towing Rigs".

Chap
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Old 10-18-2007, 03:05 PM   #5
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I've got a 2619 and pull it with a 2003 Ford Escape which has a 103" wheelbase (I think) and around 200+ HP or so. Brake controller and it's rated to 3500lbs. While it does have the towing package, the only real thing this gives me is the transmission cooler if I'm not mistaken. I don't get a huge sag in the Escape when we put on the TM, and it actually pulls it w/o issue (take it out of O/D of course) but I live in MN where we have a few hills but we're actually pretty flat unless you compare us to Iowa :->

I don't think I'd pull it any great distance with the Escape, but a couple of hundred miles here and there don't seem to be an issue. I have talked with a transmission expert and he advised that while "you certainly don't want to go any smaller" if I keep it slow and out of OD and don't push it hard I should be ok. I've gone to yearly transmission checkups to ensure we catch anything that might go wrong until we upgrade into something bigger.

Just my experience...Dan
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Old 12-07-2007, 04:40 PM   #6
Mr. Adventure
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Default Towing with a lighter tow vehicle

This is from the Trailmanor web site:

"Based on feedback from our owners, we provide the following model guidance:"

"MODERATE TOWING CONDITIONS
Mostly low altitudes, only occasional steep grades, part time service, normal highway speeds - Models 2619 through 3023 need at least 3500 pound tow rated vehicles and Models 3124 through 3326 need 5000 pound ratings."

"SEVERE TOWING CONDITIONS
High mountain towing, full time service - all models will perform better with at least 5000 pound rated tow vehicles."


The now-famous towing reference site has 2 guidelines:
http://www.rvtowingtips.com/how-long.htm

The first table is for full sized trailers, and overstates the problem a bit from a Trailmanor owner's point of view. The second guideline is actually based on a simple ratio: the distance from the hitch ball to the trailer axle should be no more that 2 times the tow vehicle wheelbase. This distance on the model 3023 is 180 inches. Hypothetically, you can tow a 3023 with most of the crossover SUV's without violating this guideline.

Some towing things I think about:

- You choose how your vehicle is loaded by how much and where you put the load in the TV and trailer, and how you set the weight distributing hitch. Getting it right is important with front wheel drive tow vehicles that might be near the edge of their envelope (I like the 1000 pound Reese hitch because its 20# lighter than some of the others and has a lot of oomph to shift weight forward in the TV).

- Your TV probably has antilock brakes, but your Trailmanor does not. You don't want the trailer brakes to lock up in a panic stop, because the trailer would skid to one side or the other behind your better-braking TV. Therefore, your stopping distance while towing will always be longer than when you're not towing. In wet or (God forbid, don't do this) icy conditions, your trailer brakes can lock up in a hard stop because your otherwise well adjusted brake controller doesn't know any better.

- I inflate my TV tires to the maximum rated sidewall pressure. My TV is supporting a maximum load. Maximum load for the tires is at maximum air pressure, I don't want tire flex anyway (remember the Firestone-Ford Explorer flap about their 28psi tire failures), and the TV handles the trailer much better under the stiffer ride conditions.

- Part of a manufacturers tow rating is transmission durablity. When its hot, hilly, or in headwinds it's harder on the tranny. The faster you go, the greater the load on the drive train because wind resistance increases with the square of the speed (eg. 4 times the work at 60 as it is at 30).

- Your speed determines your safety. A wise man once told me that it's not how fast you can go, it's how fast you can stop in an RV that counts. I've probably driven a million miles, but only a few tens of thousands towing. Surprises should be treated as more likely possibilities when towing, and a prudent 60 provides both better gas mileage and an important cushion that you don't have at 70 in the fast lane.
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Old 12-08-2007, 07:36 AM   #7
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Our tow vehicle is rated at 5000 towing capacity, and it has the larger V6 engine. We've got a couple mountains nearby that we've traveled over, and I had to move to the truck lane and put the flashers on (40 - 45 mph maximum sustained speed).

I tow with overdrive disabled, as recommended by the Owner's Manual. Having mostly-level terrain, I am satisfied with the performance of our tow vehicle when trailering, but am considering getting a V8 (It can sometimes get a little hairy when traveling at 45 mph in the truck lanes, especially on Interstate 81).

Another consideration is that - in addition to the two of us and our two dogs - we usually have our tow vehicle packed with quite a bit of "stuff" (probably 200 - 300 pounds worth). And, that adds to the total weight being handled by our tow vehicle.

Merry Christmas and Happy Camping!
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Old 12-14-2007, 01:33 AM   #8
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Talking Hey, I *OWN* a Tribeca! And a 2619!

But use the 4Runner to do all of our towing. The Tribeca is DW's commuter car, mostly. If you're buying used (as in anything before 2008; ours is a 2007), the older engine needs extremely high revs to generate adequate power for towing, and will need premium gas to do so.

I would not try to tow our 2619 with our Tribeca-- the 4Runner is much more capable for that job, although we both prefer the Subaru's really nice interior and better stereo for driving around town. The 4R also gets nearly the same gas mileage in my mountainous location-- about 19, versus about 21. But because the '07 needs at least mid-grade gas in my hilly, high-altitude location (they recommend premium), the Toyota actually WINS on gas $$$ per mile. And when the time comes, the tires are way cheaper, too. (Both are 2007, less than one year old.)

I know that the 2008 engine is improved and now compatible with regular gas. So it really is a possibility for the 2619-- although the slightly shorter wheelbase is a bit of an issue, the Tribeca is a really HEAVY little SUV, only 120 lbs less than the 4R, and would have less chance of "tail wagging the dog" than other vehicles of comparable size (e.g., Murano, Highlander). Probably better than FightinIrish's "FJ Cruiser" (he's got my better engine/tranny, but 2 inches LESS wheelbase than you, and wheelbase is the most significant issue with both of those vehicles.) I think Dan's taking a very unwise risk with the tiny "Escape".

The 4R drive train is better (especially the Toyota 5 spd tranny); the torque comes on at much lower RPMs, even against the much-improved 2008 Tribeca; the wheelbase is significantly better; the visibility is WAY better; and the frame is very strong. And the Subaru's bigger wheels, with much lower profile tires at higher pressures, are NOT an advantage on dirt roads or pavement in poor condition. You'll also need an upgraded hitch (the Subaru hitch can't take a 2" shank, while both the "standard" V6 hitch and the "WDH" V8 hitch on the 4Runner are perfectly good without further mods).

So, if you can find one you like, I'm recommending a traditional SUV, rather than a luxury-oriented "crossover". Do you need a 3-row 7-passenger vehicle, or is it the luxury/safety which has you focused on Tribeca?
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Old 12-15-2007, 11:12 AM   #9
larsdennert
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I think you should test tow one. If the Tribecca doesn't come with a two inch receiver I would be concerned of the vehicle's capacity. It's just an overall indicator. Setup properly you may be able to do it. HP is a bad indicator for towing capacity. I have 300hp Lexus IS and wouldn't tow anything with it. A Mercedes Unimog has an 80hp diesel and hauls all sorts of farm and military hardware.
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Old 12-15-2007, 01:05 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdennert
Horsepower is a bad indicator for towing capacity. I have 300hp Lexus IS and wouldn't tow anything with it. A Mercedes Unimog has an 80hp diesel and hauls all sorts of farm and military hardware.
Lars is quite right about this, but didn't expand on why this is true. If you don't mind, Lars, I'll add a bit that I learned from RockyMtnRay, our resident towing expert, now departed.

Horsepower varies with engine RPM, and of course, the advertising always tells you the maximum horsepower. For gasoline engines, the peak horsepower occurs at a very high RPM. For example, the Tribeca is advertised as having 250 hp at 6600 RPM. I would bet that 6600 RPM is very near "red line" (max RPM) for the Tribeca engine. Unfortunately, you can't run an engine near red line for very long - it will self-destruct. You can zoom up to that RPM for a quick burst of acceleration into the passing lane, but for long-term jobs like trailer hauling, you have to run the engine at lower RPM.

If you are an automotive engineer, you will look for a graph of horsepower vs RPM. And what you will find is that, especially for "performance" cars or "sporty" cars, the graph has a rather narrow peak, meaning that the peak horsepower is high, but drops off rapidly at lower RPM. So in the case of the Tribeca, your question might be, how much horsepower does the engine have at (say) 4000 RPM? And that information is hard to find.

However, Ray used to say, "Horsepower doesn't tow trailers. Torque is what tows trailers. And torque is what moves you ahead from a stoplight, especially since the engine RPM is low at that moment."

An automotive engineer will also look for a graph of torque vs RPM. Peak torque generally occurs at a lower RPM than peak horsepower. For various technical reasons, diesel engines tend to be much torqu-ier than gas engines (they have a higher torque for a given horsepower spec), and the peak torque of a diesel engine tends to occur at a much lower RPM. More importantly, diesel engines tend to have a torque curve that is much flatter, so you can operate the engine over a wide range of RPM and still have good torque output.

That's why the Unimog (or a diesel pickup, or the diesel in an 18-wheeler) can haul immense loads, even though they don't have very impressive horsepower numbers.

I don't know if this helps anyone, but there it is as I understand it. I'd welcome more informed information.

Bill
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