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Old 01-27-2012, 10:35 AM   #11
Pitbull
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You make some good points. On the other hand, I'm sure you've seen the specs on the Lexus site that say "Max towing 3500 pounds" followed by footnote 7, which reduces that capacity by saying "The maximum you can tow depends on the total weight of any cargo, occupants and available equipment." In other words, rated tow capacity is reduced pound-for-pound by the weight of cargo, occupants, factory options, and aftermarket equipment. This additional weight runs between 500-1000 pounds for most owners. Now where do things stand?

By the way, the Lexus site says the V-6 engine puts out 270 hp, not 370 hp.

Not to be discouraging, but since you live in Denver, you will probably travel at high altitude, with significant up and down grades. That will be a challenge. My wife and I have a cabin in Big Elk Meadows (Lyons, kind of), at 7700 feet. Our Explorer (7000 pound tow capacity), with the TM behind and probably 800 pounds of "cargo, occupants, and other", is always a bit reluctant, as we make the long steep climb to the gate from either direction. As a quick check, you might want to put a tranny temp gauge on your Lexus (they require only a quick electrical plug-in - no plumbing - and not too expensive), load up the Lexus and the TM ready for camping, and drive up to the gate at Big Elk. Take CR47 off Rte 36 between Lyons and Estes Park. You may be surprised.

Bill
I'm not a betting man but I would think he is over the tongue’s max weight rating!

BTW - If installing a trans cooler be careful about the amount and what type of fluid you add (Toyota/Lexus uses a SPECIAL/PROPRITARY low viscosity synthetic fluid -WS). Also there is no dip stick to know the correct amount. You may want to have a Pro do the install!

Koz
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Old 01-27-2012, 11:13 AM   #12
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Thanks Bill,

I miss typed the HP rating, you are correct that the Lexus only has 270 HP. the point I was trying to make is that Ford tends to over rates their tow capacities as a marketing ploy to compete with Chevy and Dodge while Lexus/Toyota tend to be more conservative. I agree totally that monitoring trans temp is very important and I have taken your advice and installed a gauge, the temps did surprise me. I also agree that more power would be appreciated but the RX350 did OK going from Denver to Leadville. Towing safely usually means slowing down anyway, no matter what TV you have and sometimes pulling over to let things cool down.

I am far more concerned about the F250-F350 truck with an over-aggressive driver doing 80-90MPH over mountain passes that has a light trailer but is weaving in and out of traffic versus a 3500lb rated TV towing a 3500lb trailer traveling in the right lane below the speed limit with all of the other slower rigs. I find it funny how some will say that those of us who are towing at our vehicles maximum tow capacities are unsafe while they overload their own TM's by several hundred pounds! Remember the TM has limits too.

Thank you Pitbull for your concern about the tongue weight. I have a tongue scale and had to adjust how we loaded the TM to get the tongue weight below the 350lb rating and using a WDH lowered that number even more.

Bottom line is slow down, be careful and have fun out there.
I will take your bet!
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Old 01-27-2012, 12:11 PM   #13
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I was probably overloaded with my 1500HD Chevy. A WD hitch might have reduced the sag enough to get the front wheel off of the TM.

Instead I added a 2500HD truck. It has quite a bit more capacity.

Consider this test:

Load TV and TM to the most you would ever expect to carry.
Drive drown a gravel road. pick a speed suitable for that road.
Find a gentle turn.
Slam on the brakes until you come to a stop.
How comfortable were you?
Find another dirt road, downhill, 90 degree blind turn, off camber.

Repeat the test.

This only applies to people that go where I go.

Another TV issue. My 2500HD truck has an IBC (Integrated Brake Controller). According to the owners manual, when ABS is engaged it pulses the power back to the TM brakes. Sounds like a good idea to me.

I will never tow a large trailer again without IBC. But this is a bit off topic. The question was regarding weight capacity. There have been a few tangents to the core topic, so I will add my own wrinkle.

BTW, both trucks are my daily commuter. I alternate between them. I get around 13 MPG commuting 20 miles round trip. At $3.76 per gallon that is $5.64 per day.

My wife's Lexus SUV gets 22 mpg. $3.56 per day. So I would save about $2.00 per day. Make that $10.00 per week. That is about $500 per year.

I spend $4.30 per day on coffee. I spend another $5.00 on lunch.

I could buy a daily commuter that gets around 20 mpg, but that is not economically viable. Even 30 mpg is not economically viable.

I'll stick with my pair of trucks. I buy vehicles that meet my needs. I do not buy fuel efficient vehicles that do not meet my needs.

If my commute was substantially longer then the numbers go up. That can be fixed by moving.
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Old 01-27-2012, 03:03 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PopBeavers View Post
I was probably overloaded with my 1500HD Chevy. A WD hitch might have reduced the sag enough to get the front wheel off of the TM.

Instead I added a 2500HD truck. It has quite a bit more capacity.

Consider this test:

Load TV and TM to the most you would ever expect to carry.
Drive drown a gravel road. pick a speed suitable for that road.
Find a gentle turn.
Slam on the brakes until you come to a stop.
How comfortable were you?
Find another dirt road, downhill, 90 degree blind turn, off camber.

Repeat the test.

This only applies to people that go where I go.

Another TV issue. My 2500HD truck has an IBC (Integrated Brake Controller). According to the owners manual, when ABS is engaged it pulses the power back to the TM brakes. Sounds like a good idea to me.

I will never tow a large trailer again without IBC. But this is a bit off topic. The question was regarding weight capacity. There have been a few tangents to the core topic, so I will add my own wrinkle.

BTW, both trucks are my daily commuter. I alternate between them. I get around 13 MPG commuting 20 miles round trip. At $3.76 per gallon that is $5.64 per day.

My wife's Lexus SUV gets 22 mpg. $3.56 per day. So I would save about $2.00 per day. Make that $10.00 per week. That is about $500 per year.

I spend $4.30 per day on coffee. I spend another $5.00 on lunch.

I could buy a daily commuter that gets around 20 mpg, but that is not economically viable. Even 30 mpg is not economically viable.

I'll stick with my pair of trucks. I buy vehicles that meet my needs. I do not buy fuel efficient vehicles that do not meet my needs.

If my commute was substantially longer then the numbers go up. That can be fixed by moving.
Another outstanding post by PopBeavers. My daughter wanted a new vehicle, got a Ford Focus, gets 34 mpg, can't get into the house the ruts are to deep. She got transferred so moved back home. She is driving TV2, 12mpg Grande Cherokee that has 6000# tow capacity and four wheel drive. Oh the Focus has no tow rating.
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Old 01-27-2012, 04:24 PM   #15
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Yoda well put in your earlier post about focusing on safety ( and your list of to do's) and remembering one is " on vacation."
As has been alluded to, how one drives is probably the single most critical aspect of an overall safe experience.
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Old 01-27-2012, 07:20 PM   #16
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.............................snip................. ....... I am able to keep my TM under 3500lb with proper planning and limiting what I bring along. .................snip.................
I'm curious how you keep it under 3500#, our 2720SL is 3218# after you add the two optional hanging cabinets, the microwave drawer, the air conditioner, the awning, and before adding a battery and full propane bottles. We don't carry water in the tank or water heater.
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Old 01-27-2012, 07:41 PM   #17
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...My TV has a tow capacity of 3500lb but the same HP, torque, wheelbase, frame construction, transmission and coolers as some vehicles that have listed capacities twice that...
There are many factors that go into tow ratings, and manufacturers make different assumptions as they do them. One of the hardest things on a transmission is wind resistance on a hot day. A TrailManor reduces this quite a bit.

I'd guess the Lexus is a lot like my Highlander, and I'd expect it to do pretty well here in the relatively flat lands. I don't know about durability in Denver.

Read the Owners' manual carefully, get real numbers from the truck scale, and keep an eye on your hitch receiver (500# rated receivers use 6 bolts, not 4).
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Old 01-27-2012, 09:23 PM   #18
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While we've been through all this before... I just find it interesting that there are three of us that are fairly vocal, and quite comfortable, with our 3500# rated TVs (yoda911 and Mr. Adventure). We've all done a lot of research on the subject, and all had positive experiences... and all three of these vehicles are Toyotas (Lexus counts!).

It has been well established on other forums that Toyota is very conservative with their tow ratings, and I think our combined experiences reflect this. I, personally, have been towing in bad weather and was able to make a sudden stop in a noticeably shorter length of road than just about all of the passenger vehicles I could see in front and around/behind me. I am quite confident in my set up, and that experience not only confirmed it, but was a good lesson for me. There are some 5000#+ rated vehicles on the road with me that did worse than I did, even though they weren't towing anything. So, the brand makes just as much difference as the rating... and the driver probably makes more difference than anything else!

The bottom line is what has been mentioned in passing before: there currently is no standard for giving a vehicle a tow rating. These numbers are guidelines, not absolutes, and I have yet to hear from anyone who truly "knows" what they mean, how they are derived, what are the limits or margins built in. Some rules of thumb are just that, dependent on the observer's thumb. So, do your research, think the whole process through, start to finish, be safe in whatever you choose, do NOT do anything that makes you feel uncomfortable, and enjoy the vacation!

Isn't that really why we're all here?
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Old 01-28-2012, 08:22 AM   #19
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Hi Scrubjay,

We were able to keep our weight at 3300 with the 2720SD verified on the scales because we do not have the extra cabinets, we removed the three drawer dresser, removed one of the propane tanks and this was with full water. We have a tongue scale and verified the tongue weight at 340lb by removing one LP tank and carrying the other in the tub while traveling. The whole concept of TM was keeping things light weight. From the cabinets to the aluminum/foam walls and ceiling. Besides, the TM uses an axle rated at 3500lb, brakes rated at 3500lb, tires rated at 3600lb, so it just makes sense to keep the TM's weight below 3500lb. We were back packers so traveling light was the name of the game The TM is a luxury for us with all of the amenities. If we were to haul all of the added toys and stuff that others carry, then we probably would tow with a semi. But then if we did that, we would also upgrade to a larger non TM trailer.
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Old 01-28-2012, 12:16 PM   #20
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...the Lexus has 270 HP. That is only 7.5% less than your Explorer V-8 with 15% less torque however Ford rated the towing capacity of your Explorer 108% higher than the Lexus.
Cliff -

Again you make some good points, and I don't want to get into a passionate argument about 3500-pound vs 5000-pound vs 7000-pound rated vehicles. As ThePair pointed out, we have several members who use 3500-pound-rated vehicles, apparently with good results. At the same time, I will point out that we also have many members who tried 3500-pound vehicles and were scared enough by the experience to buy something else.

The bottom line is that there is more to tow ratings than HP and torque. Many folks fall into this trap, and your post suggests that you may be one of them. I think you'll agree that if tow ratings depended only on horsepower and torque, then we wouldn't need tow ratings, since horsepower and torque are broadly published, objectively measured, and easily compared from vehicle to vehicle.

I can't wait for the new SAE tow rating standard to kick in for the 2013 model year. It might clear up a lot of this. According to this article in Automobile Magazine, the test areas that strongly influence tow vehicle performance will include
  • The engine's power and torque characteristics
  • The powertrain's cooling capacity
  • The durability of the powertrain and chassis
  • Handling characteristics during cornering and braking maneuvers
  • The structural characteristics of the vehicle's hitch attachment area

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