Right Rear torsion bar bracket. Lag bolts pulled out of wood frame.

I have a 3023 built in 2001. Three of the five lag bolts holding the right-rear torsion bar bracket to the main camper shell pulled loose making a loud bang. Two aft bolts remained connected causing the bracket to bend at a 90 degree angle at the point where the torsion bar passes through the bracket. By opening the camper shells and using jacks, metal bars and c-clamps, I was able to straighten the bracket enough to put over-sized lag bolts back in. After a day of the camper being back in storage, the lag bolts are already starting to pull out indicating that the wood inside has rotted.

Has anyone had to deal with this problem? The factory people said to re-drill the holes at an inboard angle and use long bolts with a backing plate on the inside. My concern is that if the underlying wood is rotten, won't the skin of the camper become distorted when I tighten the bolts?

I'm considering a flat metal plate on the outside large enough to secure the bracket to the camper. Anybody have any suggestions, advise, etc? Steel vs Aluminum? Bad Idea?

I'm guessing that my problem isn't being understood or perhaps nobody is familiar with the problem. I think there must be other owners who have experienced this.

Also, I noticed from other threads that wood in the construction was discontinued in the 90's. This 2001 Model definitely has a wood frame sandwiched between aluminum wall at the bottom of the walls. Any comments would be appreciated.

Originally Posted by Jim Gramke

I'm guessing that my problem isn't being understood or perhaps nobody is familiar with the problem. I think there must be other owners who have experienced this.

Also, I noticed from other threads that wood in the construction was discontinued in the 90's. This 2001 Model definitely has a wood frame sandwiched between aluminum wall at the bottom of the walls. Any comments would be appreciated.

I've heard (don't know how accurate) that it was actually 2003 wood framing was done away with. Since I own a 2002, I suspect that's right

I can't help with your problem, but I sure hope you're able to solve it. I had a HiLo until earlier this summer, when it totally failed (top collapsed) due to wood rot

[Bill]

[Edited based on Mike Laupp's comments below.]

Jim (and others) -

Just FYI, use of wood framing in the shells was phased out in the various models over a couple of years (and certainly not in the 90's), but there is no hard cutover date that anyone can cite. I know that my very early build 2002 2720SL had aluminum framing in the shells. Other members have later TMs that were built with wood.

But Jim, that is not really what you care about. The fact of the matter is that the wood framing in the floor of your particular TM is rotted and will no long hold bolts/screws/anything. It happened because a previous owner allowed water to get into the floor. And the sad fact is that any quick fix will be a band-aid, and may help for a while - but the problem may very well show up somewhere else after a while.

See Mike's comments, and my further comments, below.

Bill

[mjlaupp]

The floor frame is made of wood (nominal 2x4) to this day.

Here is an older post about the torsion bar brackets: http://www.trailmanorowners.com/foru...ht=torsion+bar

[Bill]

Good catch, Mike. I posted based on a hasty and entirely wrong mental picture, so I will mod my post.
--------------------------------------------------
Jim -

Yes, the floor (as opposed to the shells) continues to be framed with wood. Rather than trying to insert longer lag bolts into the rotten wood, you might do better to use a metal backer plate inside the TM as the factory suggested, secured with bolts down through the cage, and nuts below. Make the backer plate long several inches longer than required, and put a couple long wood screws down through each end of the plate into the (presumably solid) wood below. It won't be entirely pretty, but if you use bolts with a rounded head like a carriage bolt, it won't be bad and it might be strong enough. Paint will help, too.

I hope that the wheel wells don't get involved - that would make it a lot tougher. Looking at pictures, I can't tell.

Sorry to mislead with my earlier post.

Bill

[Ed--swGA]

I realize that this message is posting on a thread 11 years old, however, the situation with my 2013 3124 is in need of some ideas.
Over the last 5 years, 3 of the 4 black brackets that the torsion bars pass through have pulled loose from the frame--the bolts having given way. My RV repairman has reattached them with more larger and longer lag bolts, and in one case, a metal bar running several inches along the underside of the TM, with additional lag bolts going into the frame for additional support. He says that this is only a temporary fix, and is convinced that the wood is decaying from dry rot, rather than water damage. He says that the only way to arrest this problem is to replace the wood framing the box. My question is....how does one go about this? I can't decide whether to trade or have it repaired. How about some thoughts on that, too.

[rickst29]

Originally Posted by Ed--swGA

I realize that this message is posting on a thread 11 years old, however, the situation with my 2013 3124 is in need of some ideas.
Over the last 5 years, 3 of the 4 black brackets that the torsion bars pass through have pulled loose from the frame--the bolts having given way. My RV repairman has reattached them with more larger and longer lag bolts, and in one case, a metal bar running several inches along the underside of the TM, with additional lag bolts going into the frame for additional support. He says that this is only a temporary fix, and is convinced that the wood is decaying from dry rot, rather than water damage. He says that the only way to arrest this problem is to replace the wood framing the box. My question is....how does one go about this? I can't decide whether to trade or have it repaired. How about some thoughts on that, too.

Hi, Ed.
If you are referring to the torsion bar bar support brackets near their their outside ends (at the TM floor outside edges, a few inches before the bars themselves are given a 90-dgree twist to go up and into the lift bars) then I know what you are talking about - I have both comments and ideas, although I have not experienced such a failure in my much older (and less weight) 2619.

I am not an expert concerning dry rot', its possible recovery, or future prevention. In addition to your current points of failure the presence of such weakness at so many edge locations might possibly be spreading to into the middle as well, with issues for supporting the fridge, the tub, and numerous other areas of high weight on the floor.


The bolts on these 'torsion bar support brackets' becomes stressed when the shell is raised, and vertical pressure comes as shell weight on the lift bars (4 bars per shell). The weight pushes the end of the lift bar into the ground, and it is resisted by the bracket and its mounts into the floor.

The bracket consists of thin relatively metal, with a 90 degree angle between the longer (taller) descending portion and the much shorter side (1-1/4" wide in my older 2619 ) providing the mounting face against the bottom surface of the TM floor , with 5 relatively thick, relatively short SS bolts attempting to hold it tight against the tension for the torsion bar in lifted position, trying to pull the "torsion bar support bracket" assembly away from the underside of the floor. The foor attachment "mounting face onm my 2619 is about 13-14 inches long, the ends are angled.

- - -

If longer or wider bolts into the TM floor would have been more effective, TM might have simply used "bigger" bolts in the first place. But if a lot of floor areas is not rotted, (inwards fro the edge) or if the bottom side structure of the walls is somehow not yet affect by "dry rot", you might have a couple of options for strengthening this attachment:

#1 long deck screws at the outside edge of the floor, up and into undamaged vertical wall edging.

The lower box sidewalls are (or previously have been defin itely including my my 2006 year) built with at least 1" of wood edging (and maybe more) between the two aluminum plates along the "lower edge" before the beginning of lightweight insulating styrofoam between the plates.

I have very recently used that to attach 1/4" L bar segments (2" width, 1 foot long) into the bottom of my own TM - right next to the OEM 'torsion bar support brackets', for the purpose of supporting slightly lower forces (perhaps 120-200 lbs, being imposed on that plate by by add-on "lift assist gas struts".

In pre-drilling pilot hoes for a larger number of 4" long "deckmate" deck screws to hold my my L brackets against the edges of the floor, I found that pilot holes for the thinner deck screws did not cut into styrofoam forthe entire length of the pilot holes (it was wood all the way up, except for the two thin layers of flooring aluminum.)

These deck screws need to go up into the exact middle of the 1" thick sidewalls, sidewalls, the pilot holes are closer to the outside edges of the floor than the OEM support bracket mounting holes. You would need more of them (at least 10), and a segment of 1/4" steel bar (perhaps 2" wide, minimum) would have to be placed underneath the OEM support plate floor attachment portion to hold the OEM support in place.

It sounds like your repair guy already tried added a bar in a manner similar to this, but maybe used wider and shorter bolts in less quantity, and maybe didn't place it all the way the edge. (So his additional bolts went into the no-good floor, rather than the possibly helpful sidewall.)

My idea won't help if the lower sidewall edges are also rotted.

#2 Widen my "floor underside" portion of my added plate from #1, to at least 2" wide (and maybe even more maybe). Along the inner portion, add bolts and all the way through the floor into - into large washer and nuts on the top of the interior floor.

I actually cut extra pilot holes for my "assisting strut" mounting brackets" to support this, the TM underside side for one of them is 3" wide and the other is 2" wide. I did not extend those pilot holes through the TM floor and into the interior, because my outside "deck screws" were alreasdy strong enough for my struts. But the concept is, a fairly large washer (perhaps 1") on the interior TM floor before tightening the nut on to the bolt from below spreads the force over a larger area of the aluminum floor, so that it doesn't cut a hole through the thin aluminum.

From underneath the 1/4" steel plate of course needs to additional washer for strength purposes. Only the TM interior side would need the washer. This scheme could be soemwehat effective even for the case of a partly rotted subfoor although I wouldn't be inclined to continue using a TM with a badly weekend floor.
- - -
For reference, I attach a photo of one my "TM underside" L-Bar strut support pieces, as installed. You could maybe get by with a flat plate, rather than an L-bar, but an L-bar resists bending better. (And I needed to "vertical side" for attaching the actual strut support mount bar into the TM L-bar, the second photo shows that complete lower assembly).

[Ed--swGA]

Thanks, Rick for your extensive comments. They are certainly appreciated!

Let me correct my statement: My TM has 6 of these brackets: 4 large ones at the corners, and 2 smaller ones in the middle, where the shells come together. The 2 large ones at the front have both pulled loose, though at different times, and recently, bolts on the small one on the off-door side came loose and had to be repaired with larger and longer bolts. Let me also say that I don't believe the flooring is affected so far. The dry rot seems to be in the 2x4's that frame the box. My repairman's fixes have so far held up, but he keeps calling this nothing but a band-aid, and not a permanent fix. Says his work might hold up for 10 years, or 10 days, impossible to predict without going into the structure of the trailer itself. He has used your #1 suggestion above already, and has used a 1/4" steel plate 3" wide and 30" long beginning at the front corner, and coming down the side. He installed the plate underneath and then attached the bracket to the plate. He has not, however, run bolts all the way through the floor so that they are visible from the inside. At least, not yet! I had a conversation with Jacob at Trailmanor last year about this problem, and he suggested the steel bar reinforcement approach. And then, he said that if that was unsuccessful, that the wood could be replaced, he just didn't say how to go about it. I have emailed him at Trailmanor, but with the upcoming changes there, I don't know if he is there or not.

I did a little research on dry rot, and it is a fungus that can begin whenever the moisture content in wood reaches a certain level. And, most troubling of all is that once this begins--it doesn't stop, but continues to spread. I would like to find a permanent solution to avoid future problems, and protect my investment.

Thanks again for your help.

Ed

[rickst29]

Thank you for your correction to my guess that the "middle" torsion bars (front shell rear corners and rear shell front corners)) were being supported by by separate torsion bar "hanger brackets".

I just went out the garage to actually look, and my middle ones are like yours - - a single much shorter bracket assembly on each side (street side and curb side, each containing dual torsion bar support holes.)
- - -
Getting back to the original front-most and rear-most pairs, where you reported that 3 of 4 have come loose:

The 3" wide 30" long bar is wide enough to support the new holes for "added interior through-the-floor bolts with washers on top". But issues might be present for actually placing the nuts and washers on the floor surface one the inner floor:

• For the street side front-most torsion bar in my 2619, placement of nuts and washers would be challenged by the presence of the 40 gallon water tank. There is about 1" of free air between the tank side and the inner surface of the TM side wall, the washer and nut would need to be placed on the bolt end with from the end of an torque wrench extender bar. (There's no room for a hand to reach in between for the approximately 10" height of the tank.)
• For the far-front curb side, I have only the under-the bench storage compartment, that one would be easy.,
• For the curb side far rear, I have only the lower cabinets, and could access the bolt ends after removing lower shelves
• HOWEVER, the street side rear would be underneath the end of the tub - nearly impossible for me to reach with nuts and washers (without removing the tub completely). That location also has a possibly serious issue with with the "desk screws" approach, which I will cover next.

If you take a close look at my first picture from the post above, you see that my numerous deck screws are all being driven up a bit closer to the TM side edge than the the OEM bolt were. You can't see this from the picture, but they are angled relative to each other - in the same way a carpenter would drive nails at different angles when framing a house.

The different directions of pilot holes vary only in the direction of TM "front" to TM "back", and must be strictly vertical from street side to curb side. This keeps all those bolt threads in the middle of the 1" thick wood edge insert of the lower wall.

Your 30 inch bar length seems excessive, but the extra length is harmless (except for more wasted time and hardware). When the shell is raised, downard force through the lift bar presses straight down on the curved end of the torsion bar at it's lift bar attachment. That downard force is supported at the hanger bracket, in a vertical direction.

The most critical screws in the OEM attachment were those most directly above the pass-through hole. In my front street-side corner the pass-through bar hole is not centered - the first two bolts must handle most of the weight, the others provide much less assistance. The portion of your very long bar which is more than 1 foot away isn't doing a lot to help, because nearly all of the stress occurs on bolts which are closer to the pass-through hole.
- - -

On 3 of your 4 corners, I am willing to bet a virtual beer that 10-15 of those 4" deck screws up and into the sidewall can fully stabilize the OEM angled support assembly.

For each screw, the add-on steel bar (1/4" thick) must be pre-drilled larger than the longer pilot hole. IIRC, 3/16" allows the longer pilot hole and screw to be angled, while still providing a good base for the deck screw head.

The longer 1/8" pilot holes go up, through the OEM bracket, and through the first aluminum layer of the TM floor assembly. IIRC, the next portion of the pilot hole ooes into floor wood. When the bit reaches the upper floor aluminum skin, it will become a bit more. Drive through that layer and into the wooden edge side wall bottom, for the full length of the 4" desk screw.

Do not use a 3-1/2" deck screw, it might not have enough threads into the waqll structure too do the job. Do not use a "bigger" screw, because it will remove too much of the 1" thick lower wall edging and weaken the threads. IIRC, Deckmate 4" screws are are only about 10 AWG.

If you choose to use add through-the-floor bolts, they should be be machine screws of slightly larger size (perhaps 1/4 - 20). I'd use SS.
- - -

The street size rear is likely incompatible with "up into the wall" deck screws, due to the presence of pressurized Hot and Cold water lines for the tub outlet running within the wall. Without removing the wall behind the toilet or removing the tub, I don't know the height of those water lines above the floor. The corresponding exterior drain lines might also run with some length of tubing close to the bottom of the wall.

I'm not suer what to recommend for that corner of the TM.

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