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Old 08-23-2007, 12:10 PM   #21
jkeck555
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It is nice to actually see an internet forum where things don't denigrate into name calling. Thanks for all the responses. I am still not sold on the cadillac. This is all future planning. I have two years left to pay for my wife's car before I buy another one. What I can tell you is for now I am planning on buying a smaller vehicle most likely some sort of crossover station wagon. The main idea behind this is to have a vehicle that I can use as other than a tow vehicle. To popbeavers I can assure you when it is time for me to be towing frequently and going up and down those mountain roads I will be applying the 80% rule because I have seen what happens to travel trailers when they aren't towed responsibly. My parents owned a 28 foot travel trailer they loaned to a friend. He was speeding down the highway and when the trailer started to sway he slammed on the brakes and the trailer got away from him. It ripped off the hitch and went tumbling down the side of the road. There was nothing left of the trailer and he bent the frame of my dad's truck. This was on a straight flat road. I learned right there that towing requires a lot more patience and planning ahead than driving without a trailer.
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Old 08-23-2007, 01:32 PM   #22
P M Owl
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I too have been following this thread with a great deal of interest . . . . . . . permit me to toss out some kudos to all who have been involved:

What a pleasure / treasure it is to follow the course of a debate in which varying opinions or points of view have been so thoughtfully and intelligently (and politely, by the way!) articulated. After all . . . . . . . we are ALL individuals, not generic, robotic automatons; and as such, we must all operate within the limits of our own personal comfort zones. Still, my feeling is that no one of the discussion participants went away without taking a little of the other fellow's point of view to heart.

How pleasant it is that here, at least, we can apparently "AGREE TO DISAGREE!" . . . . . . . wouldn't it be wonderful if more of the world would fall into step and act accordingly??

Gary in Van Nuys
2000 Dakota Quad Cab 4WD, 4.7 V-8 5-speed
2006 Hi Lo 1706T with WDH
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Old 08-23-2007, 02:45 PM   #23
PopBeavers
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One of the conclusions that I will admit jumping to was mountains.

Early on, Alaska was mentioned.

I live in California. I know that Alaska has mountains that are taller than California (McKinley/Denali versus Whitney). I know that I routinely tow over 7,000 feet. Therefore, when towing in Alaska, obviously to me, you would routinely be towing higher than 7,000 feet. Alaska isn't Florida. Having never been to Alaska I would not know if the roads ever went over any mountain passes. I would guess that to drive from California to Alaska (Nome) I would undoubtedly drive over several mountain passes that are more than 7,000 feet.

Another bias I have is certain experiences. I have:

1. had a blow out in a car at 70 mph when I was 21
2. rolled a jeep onto its side at 2 mph when I was 19 and I was the driver
3. watched a ski boat and trailer separate from the TV, clear 3 lanes of traffic, have the trailer lodge into the center divide, watched the boat become airborne and clear 3 more lanes of traffic before colliding with the bumper of a Greyhound bus. Fortunately no one was hurt. I was 14 and only a passenger.
4. while riding as a passenger in a jeep, I assisted the rookie driver when a blow out occurred on a front wheel at 45 mph on a dirt road and they did not know what to do except scream. I was 19. I steered while it coasted to a stop. It is a lot easier to drive when the steering wheel is in front of you.

From where I sit, there is no such thing as too much tow vehicle. More is always better. The only penalty for a large TV is initial cost plus operational costs, mainly fuel.

Choosing a tow vehicle is trade offs. My fear is that frequently people are making these choices with insufficient information.

On one occasion my truck failed and had to be towed. So I borrowed a 1989 Suburban and towed my TM home. This was 50 miles and the Suburban had no brake controller.

I did not do this from ignorance. I carefully weighed the risk and consequences and made my choice. In hind sight I should not have towed without trailer brakes.

Just because I can tow without trailer brakes does not mean that I should.

Off the top of my head, when searching for an appropriate tow vehicle, the variables that should be considered are:

1. flat vs. mountains
2. one week a year vs. full time towing.
3. local county park vs. cross country trips
4. lightly loaded vs. heavily loaded
5. 55 mph vs. 75 mph
6. wet vs. dry roads

Everyone that I have ever met that tows a trailer for camping:
1. tows in the mountains
2. takes at least 8 trips a year
3. drives at least 150 miles each trip
4. has 1,000 pounds of stuff, sometimes more
5. claims that they drive 55 mph, but I know better
6. only drives on dry roads because it never rains in California

The reason we all do this is because:
1. if you aren't in either the Sierras or the coastal mountains then it is too hot
2. if you aren't going to go camping at least 5 times a year why buy a trailer
3. anything closer than 150 miles is a day trip and I save gas by leaving the trailer home
4. water, dishes, food, chairs, tables, generator, tv, games, awnings, etc. add up
5. darned few people drive slow on the interstates
6. I sometimes camp in February and it does rain then

So when I see the question, is it safe to tow a 2,700 pound trailer with a TV rated for 3,500 pounds I assume the question included an implicit "under all circumstances". Clearly the answer is no.

If the implicit question was on flat ground, one week per year, within the same county, with very little cargo, not on a highway, on a clear sunny day then the answer is yes.

But still, if I will be towing at 55 mph and have to suddenly lock up the brakes I will take my truck over a 3,500 pound rated TV any day.

My TV is insured to drive 7500 miles per year. I actually tow more like 4,000 miles per year. At 11 mpg that is 363 gallons of gas. At $3 per gallon I spend about $1000 per year for gas while towing. If I could double my mileage to 22 (a big if) then I could save $500 per year. After considering the cost versus risk, I am quite happy to spend the extra $500.

Now if gas quadruples to $12 per gallon then I will have to rethink this.

The reason I write this is that all of the conclusions that I have made are obvious to me to be the only sensible conclusion that could be reached. This is clearly not the case. But if a few other people document a similar cost/risk analysis it might be enlightening.

BTW, I have tested my setup in a near panic stop. I have no doubt that I can come to a complete stop at 50 mph *ALMOST* as quickly when towing the trailer as I can when not towing the trailer, even when I am in a modest turn. I have no reason to believe that switching to smaller TV will improve my ability to stop quickly and safely. I would love to hear stories about which TV provides the shortest stopping distance in a panic stop.

There are a lot of variables. It just looks like there is too much attention to the price of gas and other more important variables are being overlooked. The price of gas, at todays prices, is insignificant and should be ignored.
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Old 08-23-2007, 07:25 PM   #24
PopBeavers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas_Camper View Post
I think it would be interesting for everyone to weigh their TM's, on an accurate scale.
I completely agree.

My 2005 TM 2720 weighs 3380 on the axle when wet and loaded. I did not weigh the tongue. My guess is the total weight is just slightly over 4,000.

To make it lighter I would have to leave some stuff at home.that is not likely going to happen.
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