TV Insanity

Hi All,

I've been watching this board since last September when I first started searching for a used TM. You guys sure know your stuff! I FINALLY found a '95 3023 in good condition, and at the right price, "only" 125 miles away. We don't get many TM's here in the west, it seems. Thank goodness this one was in nice condition since it's the only one I've found close enough to actually go see!

Anyway, I'm desperately confused about tow vehicles. The Trailmanor website makes it seem like you can tow any model with a Honda Odyssey, which is what we were planning to get. Now, after perusing this forum I find that the Odyssey isn't going to cut it at all. I need help! Which vehicle should we get? What towing accessories will we need? How much will these aftermarket necessities cost? Any and all recommendations are MORE than welcome. Here's our situation:

We can't spend more than $10K on a TV. We realize we'll most likely have to spend additional money making it tow-worthy. We need something that can pull a loaded 3023 while hauling 4 adults, 100 lbs+ of dogs plus gear in mountainous terrain. Most of the reason we were attracted to the TM was because of the "lightweight" tow ratings. We REALLY want to keep to a 6-cyl vehicle for ecological and economic purposes. Since for $10K whatever we get will likely have higher miles it's probably a good idea if we stick to Toyotas or other Japanese models for their legendary longevity. A SUV would be better than a truck because of the dogs. Finding and installing a truck shell is a hassle and expense we'd rather avoid. We are ruling out diesels even though they are actually considered cleaner than gas engines and often have great longevity. There is a whole host of boring reasons behind this decision.

Being new to the world of trailering I didn't consider things like torque, wheelbase, weight distribution, sway control, load equalization, tranny cooling, etc. Too bad I only checked out the trailers and not the tow vehicles on this board before we bought. We've towed a boat and a pop-up in the past. I never stopped to think we'd need special modifications for a TM. Now I have a classic case of knowing just enough to be dangerous (to my pocketbook). I feel lost, confused and am having a bit of buyer's remorse. We've been AVID tent campers for years but are getting a little older now and decided we needed a bit more in the way of creature comforts in our travels. I know the trailer itself is perfect for us. It has all the features we dreamed about on cold nights in the tent. It's just all so overwhelming. Please help!

Thanks!

By the time you get trailer loaded you will be very close, at, or above the #3500 rating with 3023.

I would definitely choose a vehicle with at least a #5000 rating. Towing at max rating will not be any fun especially in mountainous areas. You might get away with it on flat terrain.

I am a big believer in having some reserve left. I tow a 3124ks with a toyota 4runner rated at #7000 with an equalizing hitch. The vehicle is a little short on wheel base with the length of the trailer I tow but it seems to tow ok.

Have not experienced any sway yet. Important thing here is to load the trailer properly. Keep heavier stuff forward of the axle.

Transmission cooler is a must. For me an equalizing hitch is a must unless you have an overkill TV. (1 ton diesel dualie truck).

Anything just about will tow a trailmanor. Safely is another matter!

Mike

My 2003 Explorer Sport Trac with the 4.0L V-6 (over 5,000 lb rating) and WDH does just fine with my 2720SL until we get on 5% plus grades, when we really slow down a lot going up, though by downshifting (automatic) and with the trailer brakes it seems OK on the downhill side -- the 3023 would be a bit more marginal.

I'd suggest that whatever you get should have at least a 5,000 lb rating, since the TM will be close to 4,000 lbs by the time you get it loaded with food, clothes, water, etc. You can save 160 lbs by leaving the water tank empty until you get to or near your campsite, provided there's a place to fill it near there.

[Bill]

Mike and Larry have hit a lot of good points - take them to heart. I agree that a 5000-pound rating is going to be possible for you, but marginal. Between passengers, dogs, and cargo, you are going to have around 1000 pounds in the truck, and this directly subtracts from your tow rating. Once you have loaded a 3023 with all the "stuff" for 4 people and a couple dogs, it will weigh around 4000 pounds, maybe a bit more. That leaves you with no margin to start with - and now you are going to add high altitude (thin air) and mountain grades into the mix.

As you see here
http://www.trailmanorowners.com/foru...ead.php?t=3144
my 2720SL weighs 3550 pounds when ready for the road, and that's for a smaller trailer and two people. A 3023 is only 50 pounds heavier (dry weight), but has more space for "stuff". So as pointed out, it will be important to travel with dry tanks, and to specifically pay attention to the insidious creep in the amount of "stuff".

This thread has some good practical illustrations of how to calculate your "real" tow capacity. I think it is worth studying.
http://www.trailmanorowners.com/foru...ead.php?t=5345

You can save a bunch of money if you get a truck that came from the factory with a towing package. Items 2, 4, and 5 below will already be installed as part of a towing package.

Re your other questions.
1. You WILL need a brake controller - about $100 for a good one. If you are unfamiliar with brake controllers, buy a Tekonsha Prodigy. Do NOT go with one of the $50 controllers. See Ray's brake-controller tutorial for the reasons.
2. You WILL need a Class III/IV weight-distributing hitch - about $200 or a bit more. If your truck doesn't have one, you can buy a bolt-on unit and save the expense of professional installation. If your truck already has one, so much the better.
3. You do NOT need load-levelling, assuming you use that term to mean helper springs, air shocks, or whatever.
4. You WILL need a 7-way wiring harness and connector on the rear bumper. Also called a Bargman connector.
5. You WILL need an aux transmission cooler, unless your truck already has one.
6. You will NOT need sway control unless you get a truck with a very short wheelbase. I would suggest 115" as a minimum, though that number is not firm.
7. You WILL need outside mirrors. Most (but not all) of our members buy a pair of McKesh mirrors (about $100) and love them.

By the way, a 3500-pound tow rating is almost always accompanied by a 350-pound hitch weight rating - and your 3023 will exceed this by a fair amount.

Hope this helps. Don't let "buyer's remorse" dominate your thinking. You are going to love your TM!

Bill

Thanks for all the fantastic advice everybody! This was all very helpful and gave me some enthusiasm back.

Bill's post was especially helpful as it gave me some idea of the costs involved in "gearing up" if we buy a TV that doesn't already have a tow package. Do you guys think we can tow our 3023 with a third generation (1996-2002) Toyota 4-Runner? The 3.4L V-6 has a 5K# tow capacity, which I know is pretty near the limit of what we'll need. There is a performance chip you can add which alledgedly gives you ~22 more HP. As Bill pointed out we'd need sway control with a 4-Runner due to it's pretty short 105" wheel base (length is 183"). We probably can't afford to buy as new as 2003 when the V-8 engine was first introduced into the 4-Runner. This must be what Mike is using to tow his 3124, right?

The 3.4L V-6 4-Runner is rated to tow 5K lbs but it also has 1185 lbs of payload capacity. I believe that I've read somewhere that once you hook up your TV to your trailer that the tongue weight transfers to the TV so that weight comes off the payload as opposed to towing capacity. Is this true? If so, I ought to be okay with the 4-Runner. As I understand it, the gen 3's are very torquey and pull well at low speeds. We may not be the fastest up the hill but the question is: can we make it? Of course, we'll have to subtract the weights of the tow package stuff from that payload capacity as well.

I really love the '96-'02 4-Runner in every way. It fills every bill in terms of PRICE, economy, seating, room for the dogs, room for gear, reliability and availability. Now, the question is, is 5K enough tow capacity? My husband and I would typically be alone when traveling in mountainous terrain far from home. The kids and dogs come along locally only. If we keep the gear weight down by keeping to: One 20-30 lb bag of personal gear/person, ~20#'s of cooking gear, 2 medium sized coolers (~100# total), one food bin weighing <20 lbs, 2 aluminum chairs, 2 sleeping bags and 2 pillows (no microwave, no extra books or paper, no extra lanterns or fuel) I figure we're looking at a total typical payload of <600 lbs. There's plenty of capacity left for the tongue if I'm correct about that weight transferring. The 3023 we bought has a few extra options so it is heavier than the 2915# shown on the TM website. It's probably more like 3400# dry. We will carry all our gear, except for the lightweight kitchen stuff, in the TV so the weight will definitely be in front of the trailer axle as Mike suggested and we won't load water until we reach the campground as Inussbau suggested. We will resist "gear creep" as Bill suggests by completely emptying out the trailer after each trip.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm figuring the trailer weight at 3500# dry after loading anything and everything that would be kept permanently in it for all trips. All else would be hauled in the vehicle 85% of the time. The rest of the time we'd be sticking to fairly flat land. What do you think? Am I wishful thinking?

Bill, did you get my post about places to beach camp in San Diego? That's where I'm writing from and the weather is beautiful today! Please do not hesitate to ask more questions about SD. I've enjoyed living here all my life and know most of the nooks and crannies.

Thanks,
Cindy

[Denny_A]

Originally Posted by IBON4IT

Thanks for all the fantastic advice everybody! This was all very helpful and gave me some enthusiasm back.

Bill's post was especially helpful as it gave me some idea of the costs involved in "gearing up" if we buy a TV that doesn't already have a tow package. Do you guys think we can tow our 3023 with a third generation (1996-2002) Toyota 4-Runner? The 3.4L V-6 has a 5K# tow capacity, which I know is pretty near the limit of what we'll need. There is a performance chip you can add which alledgedly gives you ~22 more HP. As Bill pointed out we'd need sway control with a 4-Runner due to it's pretty short 105" wheel base (length is 183"). We probably can't afford to buy as new as 2003 when the V-8 engine was first introduced into the 4-Runner. This must be what Mike is using to tow his 3124, right?....snip.....

Thanks,
Cindy

I towed a 2720SL with a 01 4Runner. Good match. Going up steep grades was somewhat leisurely, otherwise it was a very capable..the wheel base not being a factor.

**In the interest of full disclosure: My TM was totaled in a self-induced sway event. I.e., over-correction when the tow vehicle wheels left a high speed road surface.**

Re the performance chip: increasing the HP electronically is generally at the expense of torque. Torque is more important for towing than HP. I removed a special intake from my Tundra because it bumped HP by 10, but dropped peak torque in the process, by it tricking the OEM mass flow sensor !

Overall I was very happy towing with the 4Runner. However, if I were planning to drive in the Colorado mountains, whilst towing a TM, I would have upgraded to a more robust TV (like my current 2000 Tundra).

Denny_A

I have a 99 4-runner and a 2004-3124ks which pushes the weight allowances to its limit. I have towed the trailer about 35,000 miles with the 4-runner and about 15,000 of them are in the mountains of Colorado. I have a 1000 lb equalizer hitch and a Prodigy brake controller. Also have a factory installed transmission cooler.
Results....
I have absolutely no sway even with big rigs flying next to me or in very high winds "Very Stable". I understand the dynamics of wheelbase length, but I have not had an issue with it in panic situations. I can tolerate the climbs at 35mph up the 7% grades on I-70 because I can't afford a Tundra or Sequoia which I would love.

The scary factor is the brakes on the 7% grades. The 4-runner has thin rotors which will heat very quickly and possibly warp. So what I have to do is put the Prodigy on setting 3 and about the center to allow the tm to do it's share of braking. Also I let the engine do as much braking as possible when going downhill.
I have 140,000 miles on the 4-runner and still going strong.

I'd think a 5,000 lb tow capacity would be OK unless you'll spend a LOT of time towing in the mountains, especially at high altitudes. We're only slightly over that on rated capacity, and we're willing to accept 30-35 mph up Rabbit Ears Pass, but we don't hit those areas often. The rest of the time it's fine, even at 7,000-9,000 feet, with our Explorer Sport Trac.

Thanks SO much for the inputs All. I am very relieved to hear from folks perfectly happy with the trailering ability of their older 4-Runners. I was especially happy that ddnavar has hauled his/her 3124 through the Rockies and is still going strong at 140K miles. Man, those Toyotas go and go, don't they? We aren't going to be towing a whole lot in the high mountains and live in San Diego at sea level so it sounds like we'll be totally fine most of the time. Hurray!

Thanks for the advice on the Prodigy settings for steep downhills, ddnavar. My little Honda Accord has a similar problem with warping braking rotors. I get about one trip down the mountains per set! They are incredibly thin and warp at the drop of a hat. It's nice to know it's also going to be a problem with the 4-Runner. I know that the 4-Runner also eats radiators. That's no big deal though. Anybody know of any major mechanical flaws to look out for? I reckon we'll start searching as soon as the next Auto Trader comes out.

Denny's story has inspired me to make the investment into sway control even if we won't need it 99.9% of the time. I can't even imagine how scary that must have been. I hope nobody was hurt. Thanks for the advice Denny about the electronic HP. Did you use any of that on your 4-Runner when you were towing or just straight? Was it the 3.4L? The "special intake" you mentioned you removed from your Tundra - was that the K&N device I keep reading about? That certainly gets mixed reviews.

Does anybody know what all is included in a 4-Runner which is factory equiped with a tow package? Some have suggested they may have beefier radiators, rear ends, suspension, etc. I can't find any evidence either way.

The older and newer 4-runner tow packages include a large transmission cooler built in as part of the radiator. They also have a class 3 hitch which is designed well. The older vehicles do not have a built in 6 prong trailer plug built into the hitch or bumper as the new 4-runners do have a 6 pronger.

I do not have any additional gadgets on the vehicle but would like a factory built turbo for the high altitudes. "or an 8 cyl Sequoia"

I have never had a problem with the radiator yet...
The equalizer hitch is a must on the 4-runner, otherwise your headlights will be in the trees and the front end feels light. The equalizer hitch adds much stability to the 4-runner. Happy Trails