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Old 03-25-2012, 11:54 AM   #21
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Regarding the comfort of some of these vehicles:

Is part of the comfort due to P tires instead of LT tires?

If P tires, are they appropriate for the weight of the cargo, passengers and the TM tongue weight?

P tires are more comfortable.

LT tires can carry more load.
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Old 03-25-2012, 01:43 PM   #22
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I find the seats to be a major 'comfort' factor. The seats in my old Dodge minivan are extremely comfortable. Most Chevrolet seats are, IMO, hard as a rock. I test drove a 2009 Dodge minivan for a day, and they were so uncomfortable and my back (and my son's back) hurt so much I would never buy one. I consider the tire issue to be a more to do with 'ride' than 'comfort'.
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Old 03-25-2012, 06:18 PM   #23
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We used to have a 1996 Dodge Dakota (wanna be) truck.

Wife and I drove round trip to Angle Fire New Mexico and it was more comfortable than some cars I have ridden in.

3:45 PM leave San Jose

stop for gas dinner and restroom in Mohave

stop for gas in Flagstaff

stop for gas and restroom Albuquerque 6:30 AM

Wife drove the rest of the way

Coming home I drove New Mexico, wife drove Arizona, I drove California

Trucks have more legroom than some cars.

But, like I said, that was a wanna be truck.
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Old 03-25-2012, 08:40 PM   #24
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I owned a 2005 Pathfiner LE and loved it so much that when the 2010's came out I traded in my 2005 for a 2010 Pathfinder LE. I didn't even change the color since I loved the red color so much.

But your question is about 4WD Vs AWD. Years and years ago 4WD was mostly found on truck frames. It should be noted that pretty much only military vehicles will apply power to all four wheels at the same time. Making turns is difficult because both differentials are locked. For the consumer market, in many cases, being in four wheele drive usually means applying power to one wheel in the front and one wheel in the back usually on opposite sides. A locking differential will sort of apply power to both rear tires and one front tire. Then things get cloudy with the term limited slip differential.

In recent times, the car manufacturers are making AWD very close to the same function as auto 4WD. But with AWD you usually don't have the same thing as the four wheel LO option that 4WD vehicles have. AWD uses a computer to decide what wheel gets the power and can do so very quickly.

My concern about vehicles that are on a unibody, which AWD is usually found on, is the trailer tongue weight that the TrailManor units have. I believe in my opinion that 400+ pounds of tongue weight is better on a truck frame like higher end SUVs and pickup trucks have than on a unibody type vehicle.

Most anything works well on flat land. Where there are hills, the TV not only needs to get the trailer up the hill, the vehicle is also stressed on the way down the hill especially if you need to change lanes or slow down suddenly.
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Old 03-26-2012, 07:46 PM   #25
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Since the OP is primarily considering an AWD SUV, this probably isn't a concern, but many truck purchasers are unaware that the traditional 4x4 is not something you can run on dry or even most wet pavements. It needs very slippery conditions to allow differential wheel spin as it lacks a centre differential.

4x4 is truly an off-pavement or deep snow feature only.

I've never found 4x4 that useful on Ontario highways in the winter as they are usually cleared and salted quickly and so are often only partially snow covered with occasional icy patches. One night our rural highway had enough fresh snow on it to look pure white. I switched to 4x4 and unfortunately baked the centre transfer case right good on the way home. Too much traction!

It used to be that "full-time" AWD (Suburu, VW-Audi, and others) was the gold standard, I think because early "on-demand" AWD was slow to switch, making it only good at lower speeds for getting you out of a ditch.

However newer "on-demand" AWD drive systems are supposed to be very good, even at highway speeds, instantaneously putting traction where you need it, when you need it. I've been told that with the increasing demands of fuel efficiency, and with the improvements in "on-demand" AWD, some vehicles (VW's Touareg) are switching from "full-time" to "on-demand" AWD.

For those interested in pickups, an "on-demand" AWD is now available in some Ford F150 models, like the one Bill described in the Ford Explorer. That's something that I would find more useful than 4x4 on Ontario's highways in the winter.
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:12 AM   #26
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I didn't get out and test anymore vehicles today as an emergency came up (my wife's computer's printer died and the world came to an end). But...I do plan to get back to this tomorrow. I appreciate the comments I'm reading.

PopBeavers...I have to confess I haven't paid enough attention to the type tires on the vehicles I've tested...so I'll have to investigate why the Traverse had such a nice ride.

Brittany Dogs...I've probably been swayed by reviewers trashing the "outdated" Pathfinder, but I have to say the 2012 Pathfinder SV I drove seemed just fine to me. My 2002 Pathfinder has been one of the best vehicles I've ever owned. I am assuming you are still quite happy with your 2010. Also...I have wondered about the suspension and truck frame for towing a heavy tongue such as the Trailmanor compared to the SUVs that use a "car platform." Does anyone else have an opinion on whether this is an issue that needs to be investigated more? The Dodge Durango advertises their "load leveling" suspension for towning. Even though I mentioned towing to the Traverse salesman, he didn't say anything about the Traverse's "tow/haul mode," which I've read about. I need to investigate that further but I think it's focused on preventing the transmission from constantly changing gear when towing up inclines.
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Old 03-27-2012, 09:34 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brulaz View Post
Since the OP is primarily considering an AWD SUV, this probably isn't a concern, but many truck purchasers are unaware that the traditional 4x4 is not something you can run on dry or even most wet pavements. It needs very slippery conditions to allow differential wheel spin as it lacks a centre differential.

4x4 is truly an off-pavement or deep snow feature only.

I've never found 4x4 that useful on Ontario highways in the winter as they are usually cleared and salted quickly and so are often only partially snow covered with occasional icy patches. One night our rural highway had enough fresh snow on it to look pure white. I switched to 4x4 and unfortunately baked the centre transfer case right good on the way home. Too much traction!

It used to be that "full-time" AWD (Suburu, VW-Audi, and others) was the gold standard, I think because early "on-demand" AWD was slow to switch, making it only good at lower speeds for getting you out of a ditch.

However newer "on-demand" AWD drive systems are supposed to be very good, even at highway speeds, instantaneously putting traction where you need it, when you need it. I've been told that with the increasing demands of fuel efficiency, and with the improvements in "on-demand" AWD, some vehicles (VW's Touareg) are switching from "full-time" to "on-demand" AWD.

For those interested in pickups, an "on-demand" AWD is now available in some Ford F150 models, like the one Bill described in the Ford Expedition. That's something that I would find more useful than 4x4 on Ontario's highways in the winter.
Long winded rebuttal based on my experience...

I hope no one feels I am slamming anyone. But my experience seems to be a lot different than others. In the interest of completeness, I provide some real life experience with 4WD (4x4).


My 4WD (aka 4x4) has the following choices:

2WD high range
4WD high range
4WD low range
Automatic 2WD/4WD

Salt can not be used on the roads of California. We have laws against that. Very bad for the environment.

I don't know how much snow they got on Sunday, but it left 9 inches of rain at my mothers house. She lives at 2,000 feet and the pass is at 9,000 feet. Is there a rule of thumb to translate inches of rain into feet of powder?

Several years ago people were abandoning their cars on I80 near Donner Summit. If it was a low sports car then it was buried in snow and not visible to any vehicle approaching from the rear towards it. This, obviously, results in a collision. If you are not prepared to rear end a car that you can not see then you should not be there.

The tread on my truck tires are much more aggressive than the tires on my Lexus SUV. That helps a lot in snowy conditions. In icy conditions it does not matter. On some roads the only thing you can drive is 4WD with chains. 4WD/AWD with M+S tires will be stopped if they do not have chains.

I am well aware of the binding problem when driving on dry paved roads in 4WD. That is why I use 2WD on the highway. I once had binding problems even on dirt roads because, due to a flat in the middle of nowhere, I had to run different size tires front and rear. This caused binding.

posi-trac is helpful in the rear, but in the front it would cause the wheels to run straight ahead. That was 1971. My 2002 and 2008 trucks do not have that problem.

The last time I drove on a plowed road I was back far enough that I could not see the plow. The height of the snow in the plowed area was deep enough to partly cover my headlights on my truck. That would be about waist deep. The snow on the side of the plowed area was about 4 feet deep.

The deepest powder I have ever driven in was at the top of the hood. I'll drive that deep any day in my truck, but not in the Lexus. That depth would be on the Lexus windshield.

It is a real challenge to drive on unplowed side roads when the visibility is 100 feet. I like the visibility I get from the high ride height of my truck versus most SUVs.

Muddy off camber dirt roads with even a few inches of snow are not a good place to be with an AWD SUV. The rocks in the dirt that prevent you from sliding sideways are very tough on the typical SUV tire. Some LT tires with an aggressive tread might work, but I don't think there is enough clearance with the 20 inch wheels.

My brother-in-law used to plow Donner Summit. With his CalTrans ID he can get past the checkpoints even when the road is closed. An unplowed Interstate must be a very interesting place to drive. But that is not a typical situation.

Where I go in the Spring, Summer and Fall, you will get stuck in 2WD, even when not towing. If you can not slide on your back from one side to the other under the TV, then you will get stuck. I had to beef up the battery tray on the TM 2720 so that when it hits a rock it digs the rock out of the dirt instead of bending the brackets.

I wish the TM had air lift suspension so I could lower it to the present 7 feet for storage in my garage, but lift it up a couple of inches when I tow it into the campgrounds I like to go to. I have discovered that when driving through a creek bed, as tires approach the bottom of the creek bed the rear of the TM gets very close to the ground. The rear hitch is what protects the rear bumper, and also makes enough clearance that I do not break the sewer pipes. I have to use 4WD low range. Low range so that I can tow very slowly. 4WD because I am driving up and out of the creek bed, with wet tires, on rocks and gravel.

Not everyone goes where I go. Besides all of the conditions mentioned above, many people seem to be very reluctant to tow for 3.4 miles on a winding single lane dirt road. I drive the lead vehicle towing. My wife follows in the other truck, also towing. She's a real trooper.

On edit, here is some snow data for the Donner Summit area:

Top Three 24-hour Snowstorms at the Central Sierra Snow Laboratory

February 3, 1989 — 52 inches
October 21, 1967 — 46.5 inches
February 19, 1980 — 46.1 inches

Top Five Maximum Snow Depths at the Central Sierra Snow Laboratory 7

When the snowfall will be 40+ inches in 24 hours, the plows have a hard time keeping up with the rate of fall.

1952 — 311 inches (26.0 feet)
1969 — 242 inches (20.2 feet)
1971 — 240 inches (20 feet)
1958 — 210 inches (17.5 feet)
2011 — 207 inches (17.2 feet)
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Old 03-27-2012, 10:22 AM   #28
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Full-Time 4WD – This system allows 4WD (high or low) to be used on any road surface by using a center differential (diff). It also has a 2WD mode.

Permanent 4WD - Has a center diff but does not have a 2WD mode.

Part-time 4WD is a system that does not have a center diff and can only be used on low traction road surfaces. The front and rear diffs turn at the same speed (in 4WD mode).

The difference between 4WD and AWD is AWD does not have a transfer case that provides 4wd low range.

The best (most versatile) system is; full-time 4WD with a locking/limited slip center diff. This allows 4WD to be used all the time under any road conditions and will divert torque to the diff/wheel with the most traction. It also can be used as 2WD or permanent 4WD (by locking the center diff). If you want the best off-road system you would add lockers to the front and rear diffs. This locks the two wheels on the same axle (like it is a solid axle).

The system that is in my TV has full-time 4WD with a Torsen locking/limit slip center diff. The Torsen can be locked to provide a 50/50 split of torque (same as permanent 4WD) to the front and rear diffs or when unlocked it will automatically divert torque between the front and rear diffs depending on available traction. It will divert up to 70% to the rear and up to 60% to the front diff. It also uses a system called ATRAC that pulses the brakes on the wheel that loses traction and diverts the torque to the wheel with traction, on the same axle (computer controlled). It also has crawl control, which is a low speed cruise control (can only be used in 4WD low) that will maintain a set speed (1 to 5 mph) on low traction inclines or descents (including reverse). It uses computers to control the brakes (can pulse one or more wheels) and throttle to keep the vehicle in a straight line under severe traction conditions (all you do is steer).

Koz
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Old 03-27-2012, 12:03 PM   #29
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Good discussion...thanks for continued input.

It all has me wondering...if I give up my present 2002 Pathfinder with part-time 4WD (high and low)...and go with something that has AWD...am I going to miss the present configuration?

I've used my Pathfinder's 4WD "low" to nudge the car out of stuck positions and I have always used it to go up the 30 foot long steep slope of grass on our 5 acres to put my camper where we wanted it. But...I never tried it with 4WD "high" and wonder if that would have gotten me where I wanted to go. And, I've never had an AWD vehicle. I just want to make sure I can still put the camper where I want it. I don't feel the need for full-time or permanent 4WD. Long-gone are the days when I had Jeeps and would take my family places they couldn't believe (actually...15 years ago they told me they would no longer ride in the Jeep hanging off the side of a cliff).

Okay...I'm heading out the door to check out a Honda Ridgeline...but the 2012 Pathfinder I tentatively eliminated a few days ago is creeping back into my thinking...
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:25 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrgoodwx View Post
Long-gone are the days when I had Jeeps and would take my family places they couldn't believe (actually...15 years ago they told me they would no longer ride in the Jeep hanging off the side of a cliff).
My wife does not begin to get nervous until I have one half of the tread width hanging over the cliff.

I have driven up some dirt roads that I was too scared to drive down.

Did you know that with a 1948 Willy's MB you can use the front differential to crack open 16 inch diameter granite boulders? You have to get the front of the jeep a couple of feet in the air to make the drop hard enough to crack the rock.

I have never crossed a creek/never deeper than 3 feet. Yet.

I am not quite done with the good old days.

4WD is also useful for pulling trees and bushes out of the ground around the house.
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