Mirrors and/or backup camera - Page 2

**Bill** · 09-29-2010, 06:38 AM

In conjunction with the posts by Shrimp Burrito and Pop Beavers, especially with regard to the spacing / width of the mirrors, and the desired field of view behind the camper, you may find the info here helpful.

http://www.trailmanorowners.com/foru...ead.php?t=3658

Bill

09-29-2010, 03:38 PM

FWIW, at least some states have laws regarding how far a side mirror can stick out past the side of the TV. I have not lookd up the law in California, but I might be a little over the limit with a full size Chevy and the McKesh sticking out about as far as they will go.

I love the rear visibility and I doubt that any LEO would cite me, if they even noticed.

**Bill** · 09-30-2010, 05:42 PM

Wayne -

I think what you say is true. However, it has always puzzled me how a state can mandate both how far out the mirrors can protrude, and how far back the sight lines must converge (the 100 foot distance in your post #5 above). Seems to me they can mandate one, but not the other.

My preference is to obey the safety rule (seeing behind the TM) and ignore the stick-out distance.

Bill

Wavery · 09-30-2010, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

Wayne -

I think what you say is true. However, it has always puzzled me how a state can mandate both how far out the mirrors can protrude, and how far back the sight lines must converge (the 100 foot distance in your post #5 above). Seems to me they can mandate one, but not the other.

My preference is to obey the safety rule (seeing behind the TM) and ignore the stick-out distance.

Bill

Have you ever seen what happens when 2 trucks, traveling the opposite direction, collide mirrors?

I saw that happen one time, a few years ago on highway 395, going north (right in front of me). The driver of one truck lost control when the pieces broke the driver's window and he was showered with glass. The guy almost rolled the truck. I couldn't believe that he kept that thing upright. BTW.........both trucks were rentals......

The driver didn't even know what happened until I told him. He thought that someone had shot out his window.

10-01-2010, 06:33 AM

I have had a motorcyclist hit my stock mirrors on my 1971 Datsun truck, when the guy was splitting lanes poorly.

I was doing 25, he was doing about 35, How he stayed up is a mystery to me.

gmferg · 10-01-2010, 12:01 PM

When coming up behind a trailer I often ease out to the left until I can sight along the edge of the trailer to see if I can see the TV mirrors. A lot of times I can not and more times than not it is a massive fifth wheel. I don't understand the thought process here. How do you merge onto a freeway in heavy traffic or simply change lanes?

I feel very uncomfortable if I can't see what's happening beside or behind me. I tow with the CIPA brand McKesh style mirrors with convex stick-ons. I can see all around me.

Mr. Adventure · 10-02-2010, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

Wayne -

I think what you say is true. However, it has always puzzled me how a state can mandate both how far out the mirrors can protrude, and how far back the sight lines must converge (the 100 foot distance in your post #5 above). Seems to me they can mandate one, but not the other.

My preference is to obey the safety rule (seeing behind the TM) and ignore the stick-out distance.

Bill

Once again, the forum has me doing an insomnia checkup in the California motor vehicle code.

35100. (a) The total outside width of any vehicle or its load shall not exceed 102 inches, except as otherwise provided in this chapter.

35109. Lights, mirrors, or devices which are required to be mounted upon a vehicle under this code may extend beyond the permissible width of the vehicle to a distance not exceeding 10 inches on each side of the vehicle.

Here's the general section reference:
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/vc/tocd15c2.htm

I think they define "vehicle" as tow vehicle + trailer, so that's 10" beyond the trailer. But that means it's legal to have 8.5' vehicles + 1.67' mirrors, in other words 122" in those occasional 10', 120" lanes. I had this happen once in the motorhome in the good old days. We came up on one of those short construction sites under an overpass with no construction going on. With very little warning the lanes narrowed to 10 feet with a Jersey wall on the right and oncoming traffic on the left. I think the only way we cleared is the way the taper in the bottom of the barrier let us overlap the wall a little. <== Another great reason to own a TrailManor instead of a motorhome!!!

The legal requirement is probably about lane changes, since there doesn't seem to be any written requirement to see directly behind the vehicle. I find that the stock mirror is enough on the left for me, but lane changes to the right are easier with a strap on extension mirror.

**Bill** · 10-02-2010, 09:26 AM

Mr. Adventure -

Thank you for doing the "insomnia check". These rules/laws/questions have been hanging around this forum for several years. With your help, I think the following is true. Do you agree?

The widest part of my vehicle (tow vehicle + TM) is the TM. The overall width of the TM, including porch lights and awning, is 96 inches. Therefore, the outside edges of my McKesh mirrors must be no more than 116 inches apart. (And of course no more than 10 inches outside the TM on either side.)

I believe that almost everyone on this board will fall into this same measurement. I haven't heard of any tow vehicles wider than 96 inches, and I think all TM years/models have the same width. (If your TM has no awning or street-side porch light, it might be 3 inches narrower.)

I also believe that 116-inch mirror spacing will enable the sight lines to cross less than 200 feet back, but I admit I haven't checked this. What I do know is that the 110-inch edge-to-edge spacing of my McKesh mirrors does give me converging sight lines, and if my calculations above are correct, the mirrors are spaced legally.

---------------------------------

Mr. Adventure, did you find a law regarding where (or if) the left and right sight lines must converge behind the vehicle? We've been talking 200 feet here on the board, but I find it hard to believe that these giant 70-foot semis, a full 102 inches wide, accomplish that feat. In fact, a quick calculation suggests that it is more like 700 feet. No wonder the drivers want you to position your car near the edge of the lane, so that you can see their mirrors.

Bill

**Bill** · 10-02-2010, 09:53 AM

OK, now you've got me doing it. Again with respect to California laws and mirrors.

26709. (a) Every motor vehicle registered in a foreign jurisdiction
and every motorcycle subject to registration in this state shall be
equipped with a mirror so located as to reflect to the driver a view
of the highway for a distance of at least 200 feet to the rear of
such vehicle.
Every motor vehicle subject to registration in this state, except
a motorcycle, shall be equipped with not less than two such mirrors,
including one affixed to the left-hand side.
(b) The following described types of motor vehicles, of a type
subject to registration, shall be equipped with mirrors on both the
left- and right-hand sides of the vehicle so located as to reflect to
the driver a view of the highway through each mirror for a distance
of at least 200 feet to the rear of such vehicle:
(1) A motor vehicle so constructed or loaded as to obstruct the
driver's view to the rear.
(2) A motor vehicle towing a vehicle and the towed vehicle or load
thereon obstructs the driver's view to the rear.

Now I believe that the phrase
... a view of the highway for a distance of at least 200 feet to the rear of such vehicle
is intended to mean
... a view of the highway beyond a distance of 200 feet to the rear of the vehicle
but it appears that most states use ambiguous wording similar to California's.

But apart from that, I can't get anywhere near a 200-foot sight line on a big semi, no matter how I sketch or calculate. Am I doing it wrong?

Bill

Mr. Adventure · 10-02-2010, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

I also believe that 116-inch mirror spacing will enable the sight lines to cross less than 200 feet back, but I admit I haven't checked this. What I do know is that the 110-inch edge-to-edge spacing of my McKesh mirrors does give me converging sight lines, and if my calculations above are correct, the mirrors are spaced legally.

---------------------------------

Mr. Adventure, did you find a law regarding where (or if) the left and right sight lines must converge behind the vehicle? We've been talking 200 feet here on the board, but I find it hard to believe that these giant 70-foot semis, a full 102 inches wide, accomplish that feat. In fact, a quick calculation suggests that it is more like 700 feet. No wonder the drivers want you to position your car near the edge of the lane, so that you can see their mirrors.

Bill

Bill,
Any realistic sight lines directly behind a vehicle are impossible, if all you have to work with is a 10" distance out and a 70 foot rig. I don't believe there could be any requirement for the sight lines to cross behind the vehicle. I read the California statute to say that any mirror to mirror distance up to 122" is legal for vehicles legal to be 102" because it's written in terms of max legal width plus 10" on each side (it might say somewhere else in California that there are rules to be met for vehicles to be legal over 96" wide). So you know that mirror to mirror 116" is legal and possibly 122". The sight ambiguities you site are flaws in the laws.

For your edification, this is what Thomas Jefferson wrote for us:
§ 46.2-1082. Mirrors.

"No person shall drive a motor vehicle on a highway in the Commonwealth if the vehicle is not equipped with a mirror which reflects to the driver a view of the highway for a distance of not less than 200 feet to the rear of such vehicle.

No motor vehicle registered in the Commonwealth, designed and licensed primarily for passenger vehicular transportation on the public highways and manufactured after 1968 shall be driven on the highways in the Commonwealth unless equipped with at least one outside and at least one inside rear view mirror meeting the requirements of this section.

Notwithstanding the other provisions of this section, no motor vehicle which either has no rear window, or which has a rear window so obstructed as to prevent rearward vision by means of an inside rear view mirror, shall be required to be equipped with an inside rear view mirror if such motor vehicle has horizontally and vertically adjustable outside rear view mirrors installed on both sides of such motor vehicle in such a manner as to provide the driver of such motor vehicle a rearward view along both sides of such motor vehicle for at least 200 feet."

(It still doesn't say how close to the side of the vehicle this sight line is, and it was written before rear view cameras were invented))