Towing with a Toyota Sienna

[Wavery]

Originally Posted by ThePair

You do not need a transmission cooler or anything else for that van. I have personally confirmed with Toyota that your van, and mine (2006) have the tran cooler and everything else already in place, and you just need to have the wiring and the hitch. I'm in the process of finishing this project myself

When you state, "I have personally confirmed with Toyota that your van, and mine (2006) have the tran cooler and everything else already in place", are you saying that you have something in writing from the factory? or are you saying that some salesman (that may or may not know what he is talking about) told you that?

If you are towing a 3,000# trailer plus passengers & cargo with a Sienna, I would highly recommend an external trans oil cooler. The risk is that the higher transmission fluid temp passing through the stock radiator of the Sienna will increase the burden on the radiator and may also overheat the engine.

The theory behind using an external cooler is to lesson the burden on the factory radiator and protect, not only the transmission but the engine as well. It's very cheap insurance. Being wrong may cost you $3-8K in engine and trans damage. The cost of a cooler is about $200-$300 installed. No brainer...

If I owned a Sienna, I'd install the (slightly higher priced) trans cooler with the electric fan (like this one http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-H...Q5fAccessories ). That one can be installed away from the radiator and will be much more helpful for climbing grades at slower speeds. As the vehicle speed slows, the amount of air passing through the cooling system is reduced. Having that electric fan on the trans cooler is a big help in those conditions.

[Mr. Adventure]

My Toyota Highlander has a transmission temp warning light, and the Sienna probably does too. If so, then you could just keep an eye on it, and see if it ever lights on some hot day adventure in August. Most important for me in the decision would be if the factory towing package provides anything different for the transmission cooler, and I'd expect the dealer people to be able to match the stock numbers, and know the answer.

As for how much to tow, I'm a real big fan of trailers that weigh less on the road than their tow vehicles. So I travel a lot lighter with my TrailManor than I used to when I had heavier RV's, largely because of the hassles I used to have when I had heavier Rv's.

The weight distributing hitch is darned important for darned near everybody for 2 reasons: 1) it keeps you from overloading the rear axle (one of our posters discovered 700# on the rear axle in his pickup from just a 480# hitch weight) and 2) it keeps you from unloading the front axle, where most braking and all steering happens.

[Wavery]

Originally Posted by Mr. Adventure

My Toyota Highlander has a transmission temp warning light, and the Sienna probably does too. If so, then you could just keep an eye on it, and see if it ever lights on some hot day adventure in August. Most important for me in the decision would be if the factory towing package provides anything different for the transmission cooler, and I'd expect the dealer people to be able to match the stock numbers, and know the answer.
As for how much to tow, I'm a real big fan of trailers that weigh less on the road than their tow vehicles. So I travel a lot lighter with my TrailManor than I used to when I had heavier RV's, largely because of the hassles I used to have when I had heavier Rv's.

The weight distributing hitch is darned important for darned near everybody for 2 reasons: 1) it keeps you from overloading the rear axle (one of our posters discovered 700# on the rear axle in his pickup from just a 480# hitch weight) and 2) it keeps you from unloading the front axle, where most braking and all steering happens.

I would not depend on dealer personnel to have much knowledge about tow-ability of any of their vehicles.

I worked for dealerships since I was 17 and I was Service Manager for many years before retiring. I was a factory rep for GM after graduating from General Motors Institute. Towing is NOT the norm and dealerships have very little experience with what it takes. On occasion, we would get a vehicle with a burnt up trans from towing but the sales dept wouldn't know anything about it. That's when we would sell the customer a trans cooler.

There is very little (if any) written material, from the factory, for the sales & service depts to advise customers on customizing vehicles for towing. I will tell you for almost certain that most dealership personnel will quote the "Tow rating" in the owner's manual and have no idea what you are talking about when you ask them about the GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) or any of the other technicalities about towing. It's simply not something that they are familiar with or have written material on (other than what is in the factory brochures or owner's manuals). They will also not know what is included in a factory "Tow Package". It's not like there is a list of parts that comes with the vehicle. The parts catalogs will ask if the vehicle has a tow pkg when looking up certain parts but there is no way of figuring out all of the parts that are associated with any particular vehicle. You might call the parts dept and ask them if there is 2 different radiators for towing and non-towing or simply a HD radiator but that's not going to help much.

If you ask a service adviser about adding anything to a vehicle that is under warranty, they will tell you, "NO" because you run the risk of voiding your warranty. After the vehicle is out of warranty, most people take them elsewhere for service.

If you really want professional advise about adding a trans cooler to your vehicle or not, go to a transmission shop. Those are the guys that deal with out-of-warranty vehicles and know the value of a trans cooler.

As far as the "Idiot light" on the dash is concerned...........if that comes on, it's basically too late. All you can do is pull over right-away and wait for it to cool. Best plan to to avoid that at all cost.

[ThePair]

I called Toyota National and spoke with a representative, not my local dealer.

He confirmed for me that all the Toyota Siennas up to and including 2007 have no difference in the engine configuration if ordered from the factory with or without the "tow package". He confirmed that the "tow package" for these models consisted only of the Class I hitch. That's it. There's no separate engine configuration, no additional cooling available from the factory. It's one configuration.

Now, as to whether or not their towing configuration is sufficient, that's a completely different discussion. But, you can't get more put onto an engine in those years from the factory.

This all changed in the 2008 model -- they omitted the oil cooler in 2008 and 2009 models, unless you added the tow package. But for 2007 and previous, there is only one engine configuration, and it's designed for towing within the listed limits of the vehicle.

((Another note mentioned elsewhere, is that the Toyota tow rating allows for cargo and passengers within the van itself, which is a departure from many other manufacturers.))

I was very concerned about this very subject, since my van is currently still a lease, so I spoke with National to find out the answer for myself, not trusting what I read on Siennachat or other boards. Fortunately, what I had read was verified

[Wavery]

Originally Posted by ThePair

I called Toyota National and spoke with a representative, not my local dealer.

He confirmed for me that all the Toyota Siennas up to and including 2007 have no difference in the engine configuration if ordered from the factory with or without the "tow package". He confirmed that the "tow package" for these models consisted only of the Class I hitch. That's it. There's no separate engine configuration, no additional cooling available from the factory. It's one configuration.

Now, as to whether or not their towing configuration is sufficient, that's a completely different discussion. But, you can't get more put onto an engine in those years from the factory.

This all changed in the 2008 model -- they omitted the oil cooler in 2008 and 2009 models, unless you added the tow package. But for 2007 and previous, there is only one engine configuration, and it's designed for towing within the listed limits of the vehicle.

((Another note mentioned elsewhere, is that the Toyota tow rating allows for cargo and passengers within the van itself, which is a departure from many other manufacturers.))

I was very concerned about this very subject, since my van is currently still a lease, so I spoke with National to find out the answer for myself, not trusting what I read on Siennachat or other boards. Fortunately, what I had read was verified

Being a lease vehicle, I wouldn't add anything. May be asking for trouble. If you owned the vehicle, that would be a different story.

[Mr. Adventure]

Originally Posted by harveyrv

I would not depend on dealer personnel to have much knowledge about tow-ability of any of their vehicles.

I agree that there are dealer people who are quick to tell you things without having any knowledge to back it up. And your story underscores a real important point: Towing in general and tow ratings in particular are founded more in art than science at times.

But if transmission coolers with and without the tow package have the same stock numbers, that's a pretty good sign that the tow package doesn't come with special ones. More to the point: People towing TrailManors with Toyota Siennas are not reporting transmission hot lights (or transmission failures either, for that matter).

[Bill]

Originally Posted by ThePair

Another note mentioned elsewhere, is that the Toyota tow rating allows for cargo and passengers within the van itself, which is a departure from many other manufacturers.

I keep hearing this, but when I go to the Toyota web site and look at the tow ratings, I find the inevitable asterisk that says

"The maximum you can tow depends on the total weight of any cargo, occupants and available equipment."

In other words, the weight of the cargo in the vehicle, the weight of the people in the vehicle, and the weight of any factory or aftermarket options you add to your vehicle, directly reduce the allowable trailer weight.

Bill

[ThePair]

I intend to purchase this vehicle at the end of the lease, so I'm not worried about the wiring and hitch. Even if I didn't, they're considered "value added" and wouldn't negatively impact me with respect to the lease. I'd just lose the cost of the equipment, which would amount to ~$100 for the wiring. Not the end of the world.

Naturally, Toyota's lawyers will protect themselves with blanket caveat statements. But many others have looked at all the ratings on the vehicle and determined from the ratings that there is room for cargo and passengers in addition to the 3500# tow rating. Of course, if the vehicle is loaded up to max, the tow rating would put it over the combined VWR. But, we do have more room to put stuff in the TV than some other manufacturers allow for, when the tow rating is determined by the TV being nearly empty.

I don't have all the numbers for my vehicle available yet, but I do intend to get it weighed properly once I have the TV hitch installed and the TM loaded, etc. Then I'll know for certain, with my configuration, how I match up to the weight ratings on the TV, etc.

Mr Adventure, I think your last point it spot on. If you go to the Sienna forums, I don't see people reporting any issues towing with their stock <=2007 Siennas.

[Mr. Adventure]

Originally Posted by Bill

I keep hearing this, but when I go to the Toyota web site and look at the tow ratings, I find the inevitable asterisk that says

"The maximum you can tow depends on the total weight of any cargo, occupants and available equipment."

In other words, the weight of the cargo in the vehicle, the weight of the people in the vehicle, and the weight of any factory or aftermarket options you add to your vehicle, directly reduce the allowable trailer weight.

Bill

Bill,
Most manufacturers give you a Gross Combined Weight rating that you have to subtract everything from (passengers, cargo, trailer, etc.). They might tell you that you have a 3500 pound towing capacity in your Town and County, but then tell you to subtract vehicle payloads from it.

What's different is that Toyota rates the trailer capacity in addition to the gross vehicle weight to get Gross Combined Weight. In other words, a Toyota with a GVW of 6000 pounds and a trailer rating of 3500 pounds will also have a Gross Combined Rating of 9500 pounds, as if the trailer rating is in addition to a fully loaded vehicle. The math isn't different, it's just that the full towing load rating is on top of the gross vehicle weight rating.

In my case, I have a 3500 pound tow rating, but there are 4760 pounds between the empty weight of my Toyota and the Gross Combined Weight rating. Some other manufacturers might have rated this vehicle with a 4500 pound tow rating, and then have a table in the owners' manual telling you that you need to subtract people, pets, and luggage from your towing capability. In Toyota's case, you still have a 3500 pound tow rating while you subtract people, pets, luggage, etc, the vehicle, and trailer tongue weight from the Gross Vehicle Weight rating.

Either way, you still need to do the math. The numbers never seem to be in one easy place, hopefully coming from some combination of the owners' manual and the driver side doorpost. The best numbers would probably come from a scale that can give you hitched and unhitched axle weights.