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Old 11-24-2003, 08:07 AM   #11
Frenchy
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Default Re:Tire Margins on 2619

Can someone find out what the failure mode of the axle would be and what the symptoms of a failed axle would be? I had two Carlisle tires fail on the same trip a couple of years ago and that is not a good experience. I think it would be a good idea to have as large a margin of safety on the tires but not to exceed the axle limt. I would like to use the Trailmanor method for the axle limit to increase my weight capacity.
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Old 11-24-2003, 09:00 AM   #12
RockyMtnRay
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Default Re:Tire Margins on 2619

[quote author=Denny_A link=board=3;threadid=652;start=msg10933#msg10933 date=1069656917]
Summary: 1. Dexter -- 3500 lbs max weight on the tires
2. TrailManor - 3700 lbs max weight on the tires.

I'll stick with the Dexter model, just to be SAFE!

Denny_A

[/quote]

Wow, Denny, that's excellent information. And to reinforce your recommendation, here's some additional data I got from having my rig weighed at an RV Safety Education Foundation weigh-in. The RVSEF weigh-ins use portable scales that provide the weight on each tire of your entire rig (hooked up and not hooked up)...not just the weights on each axle as you would get at a commercial scale.

I found out that my TM, when packed for a typical departure, had a weight of 1750 lbs on the streetside tire (off-door or driver-side). But the curbside tire was carrying only 1500 lbs...250 lbs less. The main reason for this large side to side difference was I had the fresh water tank, the hot water tank, and the refrigerator filled on that day. However, the toilet was only at min charge level and the grey water tank was empty.

Note that the total axle weight was 3250...250 lbs less than Dexter's limits and 450 lbs less than TM's limits. If I didn't know the weights on the individual wheels (e.g. had gotten the TM weighed at a commercial scale), I would have assumed that I could very safely add another 250 lbs of weight over the axles. If I loaded that weight symmetrically (easier said than done), that would put another 125 lbs on each tire. And that would bring my streetside tire weight up to 1875...almost the limit of that tire and 25 lbs over what even TM's engineer says you can put on each side of the trailer (3700 total or 1850 on each side).

Bottom line: Because it's pretty easy to have asymmetric loading between the two sides of the trailer, the prudent approach is to use the Dexter limit of 3500 lbs on the axle (and don't depart with more than the bare minimum water in your tanks). Then if you do have significant weight differences between the two sides, you probably still have some margin of safety remaining on the heavy side.

P.S. Here's the RVSEF's website: http://www.rvsafety.org/index.htm. I suggest everyone periodically monitor their weigh-in schedule and try to attend one of the weigh-ins.

Note: Edited to fix a math error (1750 + 125 = 1875, not 1850 as originally posted)
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Old 11-24-2003, 09:22 AM   #13
Bill
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Default Re:Tire Margins on 2619

OrangeKid wrote
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An analogy to this is the Dell web site. It will not allow one to configure a computer with incompatible components. If Dell can do it why can't TM?
I don't think I was clear about my point. Both Dell and TM can (and do) build a unit that is proper when it leaves the factory, but neither Dell nor TM can control what the owner does with the unit after it leaves the factory. And that is where the problem arises.

To use your Dell example, I recently bought three Dell computers. Each came with a 250 watt power supply, and Dell made sure that 250 watts is sufficient power for whatever options I ordered from Dell. But each computer also has 3 expansion slots where I can plug in aftermarket cards, and Dell has no control over what I do with those. I might plug in a second Ethernet card, which takes only 2 watts of power, so everything is fine. But I might plug in an aftermarket video processor card which draws 100 watts. If I plug in this card, it will overload the power supply. The only way Dell could prevent me from doing this is to build the computer without any expansion space.
Seems to me that it is up to Dell to make the power supply information available to me (which they don't do very well), but it is up to me to use that info wisely.

The parallel with the TM weight issue is almost exact. TM provides a trailer that is adequate when it leaves the factory, including the 40-gallon water tank option. But they can't control what I put in the trailer after I get it. For example, there is expansion (storage) space for tools in the rear bumper. If I put a few screwdrivers and a pair of pliers in there, then everything is fine. But if I go to horse shows, and load that space up with blacksmith tools, then the result is overload. The only way TM could prevent it to build the trailer without any storage space.
As in the case of Dell, it is up to TM to make the weight information available to me (which they don't do very well), but it is up to me to use that info wisely. If I really think I need the blacksmith tools, then perhaps I can have them by travelling with the water tank empty - but that is my choice, not TM's. And TM can't do anything to prevent me from loading up both.

Bill
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Old 11-24-2003, 12:24 PM   #14
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Default Re:Tire Margins on 2619

What I am taking away from this thread is that RVrs need to have the weight on each wheel on their trailer (and perhaps on their TV) measured jas RockyMtnRay had done with the WDH in place and the trailer loaded for camping. A brochure from Goodyear on Marathon tires also suggests doing that.

The other thing I am taking away is that the RV industry is lax in buiding any margin into their campers and informing/educating the buyer as to the proper loading limits. For example the sticker inside the door of my TM does not account for the propane tanks or the batteries. Just about every camper has at least one of each.

With regard to the analogy with Dell Computer. The power supply of Dells is very consevatively rated (unlike the tires and axles on the TM). They are designed to support cards in all the slots. A 100 watt card would be an extreme example. I follow Dell forums closely and Dell power supplies essentially never fail. I have filled all he slots and bays in my Dells and never had a problem.

One place where there seems to be lots of margin in the TM is in the scissor jacks at each corner. They are rated at 5000 lbs each! The 2619 can sleep six. My guess is that 6 adults and all their camping equipment, food, water, and waste would exceed the rated weight limits of the TM. But when actually camping much of the weight is carried by the jacks, not the axle and tires.
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Old 11-24-2003, 01:38 PM   #15
Bill
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Default Re:Tire Margins on 2619

Orangekid said
Quote:
RVrs need to have the weight on each wheel on their trailer measured
and
Quote:
The RV industry is lax in building any margin into their campers and informing/educating the buyer as to the proper loading limits. For example the sticker inside the door of my TM does not account for the propane tanks or the batteries.
I am with you 100%. In fact, if you were to look back, you'd find that I am the chief rabble-rouser on the issue of weight. An overweight condition is not just inconvenient or annoying - overweight is dangerous! I really dislike the way the RV industry treats weight, and I have been very vocal about it. Want to join me??

I was going to refer you to a couple of my best rabble-rouser posts, but I can't work the Search engine well enough to find them. Where's Mike???

Bill
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Old 11-24-2003, 01:40 PM   #16
MikeD
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Default Re:Tire Margins on 2619

Given these concerns about the maximum load capacity of the axle/tires, how would you evaluate dealer added options, such as the 30lb propane tanks and Generac 3.5Kw generator being discussed in

http://www.trailmanorowners.com/yabb...10938#msg10938

What is the dealers responsibility when adding additional weight that may or may not be approved by the factory ??

Mike
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Old 11-24-2003, 02:17 PM   #17
RockyMtnRay
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Default Re:Tire Margins on 2619

[quote author=MikeD link=board=3;threadid=652;start=msg10942#msg10942 date=1069706406]
Given these concerns about the maximum load capacity of the axle/tires, how would you evaluate dealer added options, such as the 30lb propane tanks and Generac 3.5Kw generator being discussed in

What is the dealers responsibility when adding additional weight that may or may not be approved by the factory ??

Mike
[/quote]
I'm not sure if they have any legal obligations.

I personally feel they have both moral and ethical obligations to list (ideally placard) all dealer added equipment...both the total weight added and how it affects the placarded hitch weight. It sounds like Custom RV did this for OrangeKid's trailer...but then the additions had a huge effect on his hitch weight. But I doubt very few dealers are this conscientious about every addition, particularly if the weights involved are 100 lbs or less. When I had my dealer add an awning, even they didn't know how much it weighed...just that "it took two guys to lift it into place". My guess is that it's around 70 lbs...not a huge problem for me since it was installed on the curb (lighter) side of my TM. But I still would have liked an actual number.

The only real solution is to actually load your trailer and tow vehicle as you would for at a typical departure, then stop at a scale and get each axle of the entire rig measured in that configuration. If you're over weight on one axle or another, stuff has to be moved or removed. And if you're under the various limits, then you know exactly how more you can add for, say, a longer trip in the future.

The problem is dealers make more money by selling you as many accessories and options as they can. It is not in their interest to tell you that each option adds additional weight and that a fully optioned-out trailer has several hundred pounds less spare load carrying ability than the basic unit listed in the factory brochure.
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Old 11-24-2003, 02:57 PM   #18
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Default Re:Tire Margins on 2619

As you see at the beginning of this thread I have been worrying about weight since before I bought my TM. There are "toys" I want to add to the unit like a dish for Internet access and bike rack, but it looks as if I can't do so without exceeding the weight limits.

What I really find unbelieveable is that Dexter and TM cannot agree on the carrying capacity of the axle.
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Old 11-24-2003, 04:17 PM   #19
Denny_A
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Default Re:Tire Margins on 2619

[quote author=OrangeKid link=board=3;threadid=652;start=msg10944#msg10944 date=1069711068]
What I really find unbelieveable is that Dexter and TM cannot agree on the carrying capacity of the axle.
[/quote]

OK,

I actually emailed Dexter for clarification. An initial and followup response confirmed that 3500 lbs is "tire patch" weight GAWR. Someone else in this forum called directly and recieved the same info.

In response to my revelation regarding the Dexter response, TM called Dexter and reported that Dexter confirmed, as acceptable (to paraphrase), "the method used by TM" to detemine the manner in which the GAWR limit is defined.

Interestingly my contact was "Christine". TM's contact was - Christine! I had not communicated with TM who my source was.

In her 2nd email, Christine commented that "some manufacturers have alternate methods....", as a response to my query about not counting unsprung weight. Again, I paraphrased. She did not know that I was inquiring about any particular mfr. TrailManor stand behind the method of determining GAWR for its trailers. All my correspondence w/Dexter was completed before TM spoke with them.

These many months after said event, I believe I started the second round of email with Christine after speaking with TM about the 3700-3500 lb dichotomy. I'm not absolutely sure, though.

Denny_A
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Old 11-24-2003, 06:32 PM   #20
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Default Re:Tire Margins on 2619

That is very interesting, Denny. Just shows to go ya that there is always that second right answer out there...

I'd still like a heftier tire even on my 2619 though...

Gregg
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