Towing (another question :)

[clan_salmons]

Let me qualify this post by saying I am not an expert at towing. We purchased our 3023 last year and that is the limit of my towing experience. I can say that I did a ton of research on tow vehicles. We wanted a vehicle large enough to safely tow the TM and small enough that we felt comfortable in the grocery store parking lot. The Q7 was on our short list, but we really didn't need a seven passenger vehicle. The Q5 was just too small for the size TM we wanted. I did get a chance to drive a Q5 2.0T for a day and was impressed. I thought the 8 speed would be hunting for gears all the way home as I came through some mountains. I don't think it ever downshifted excepted when I punched it. The torque out of that little engine was surprising. I immediately looked it up when I got home.

Since you are looking at a "cousin" I couldn't help but post our experience with our 2009 Cayenne 3.6L v6 with 290hp and 273lb torque at 3000 rpm. It has the same basic heritage in the drive train as the Audi. AWD with a 40/60 torque split. The Cayenne pulls the TM with ease. I use sport mode to boost throttle response and extend the shift points. I can pull away from a stop light right along with the traffic. On a 700 mile run fully loaded (40gl water tank) though Virginia mountains last year I averaged 14.5mpg. Handling was superb with absolutely no sway in turns or meeting tractor trailers on 2 lane roads. The six piston Brembo brakes (not sure about the Q5 here) did not fade in hard (oops,there's my turn) downhill braking and the TM stayed right behind us without a wiggle. Yes I could tell that I had 4,000+ lbs back there, but at no point was I concerned that I was under equipped.

Comparing the Q5 to my Cayenne I noted the following:
Wheelbase 110.5 vs 112.4
Shorter, but I am also towing a 23 footer.

Payload 1,047 vs 1,731 lbs
You will need to watch this. Tongue weight, passengers and gear come out of this number.

Tongue Weight 440 vs 600 lbs
You'll need to be very careful here. Search the forum for actual weight measurements for 2619/2720 models to give you an idea how big you can go. TM's have their axle further back to improve stability. Don't forget to consider water. My 40 gallon tank is in front of my axle and at 8.3 lbs/gal you can really load up your tongue weight. A WDH would be essential here.

Curb Weight 4,475 vs 4,762 lbs
I would have never thought that the Q5 I drove weighed this much. Of course the diesel adds a bit, but it really felt much lighter. Coupled with the AWD and Audi's stability controls, this gives some pretty good footing.

Torque: 428lbs at 1,750 rpm. Hands down winner here, especially with the 8 speed transmission. I've read reports of diesel Cayennes getting well over 30 mpg with this combo.

As you can tell I thought the Q5 was a great vehicle. You need to check to make sure the factory hitch is a Class III. It should be with that tow rating. I would also check with the dealer about what Audi thinks about WDHs. Touaregs and Cayennes say no, but we do it anyway.

Hope this helps a little. Please read the disclaimer at the top.
Oh and if you do get the Q5, be ready for the "You can't tow that with that!". It's fun to tell people about the virtues of a TrailManor.

Stan

Originally Posted by Bill

cgermany -

Amongst all the tech specs, you omitted what I think is one very important consideration.

Where will you tow?

It should be apparent that towing a trailer on straight roads on the flats in Florida or Indiana is very different from towing the same trailer through the Rockies or the Sierras, getting up to 10,000-12,000 feet, with steep grades (both up and down), and sharp bends that limit your speed to 10 mph (in other words, very little cooling airflow for the transmission).

Some of our members do indeed tow mostly short distances on the flats, and some tow long distances in the mountains. Both are perfectly valid uses for the trailer, but they put substantially different demands on the tow vehicle.

So where will you tow?

Bill

Hi Bill,

I realized that last night as I was reviewing the previous replies. I live in Houston where the earth is flat! I'm going to be towing on the coast within a few hundred miles of home. If I head up to the mountains (like Breckenridge), I plan to rent a trailer locally instead of towing it all the way.

I've also been trying to find additional information about the transmission, but so far haven't had much luck. I'm not sure where to get an unbiased answer about the capabilities. I can find gear ratios, etc, so would love to see a tow test from a 3rd party.

Thank you Sir,

Chance

Originally Posted by clan_salmons

Let me qualify this post by saying I am not an expert at towing. We purchased our 3023 last year and that is the limit of my towing experience. I can say that I did a ton of research on tow vehicles. We wanted a vehicle large enough to safely tow the TM and small enough that we felt comfortable in the grocery store parking lot. The Q7 was on our short list, but we really didn't need a seven passenger vehicle. The Q5 was just too small for the size TM we wanted. I did get a chance to drive a Q5 2.0T for a day and was impressed. I thought the 8 speed would be hunting for gears all the way home as I came through some mountains. I don't think it ever downshifted excepted when I punched it. The torque out of that little engine was surprising. I immediately looked it up when I got home.

Since you are looking at a "cousin" I couldn't help but post our experience with our 2009 Cayenne 3.6L v6 with 290hp and 273lb torque at 3000 rpm. It has the same basic heritage in the drive train as the Audi. AWD with a 40/60 torque split. The Cayenne pulls the TM with ease. I use sport mode to boost throttle response and extend the shift points. I can pull away from a stop light right along with the traffic. On a 700 mile run fully loaded (40gl water tank) though Virginia mountains last year I averaged 14.5mpg. Handling was superb with absolutely no sway in turns or meeting tractor trailers on 2 lane roads. The six piston Brembo brakes (not sure about the Q5 here) did not fade in hard (oops,there's my turn) downhill braking and the TM stayed right behind us without a wiggle. Yes I could tell that I had 4,000+ lbs back there, but at no point was I concerned that I was under equipped.

Comparing the Q5 to my Cayenne I noted the following:
Wheelbase 110.5 vs 112.4
Shorter, but I am also towing a 23 footer.

Payload 1,047 vs 1,731 lbs
You will need to watch this. Tongue weight, passengers and gear come out of this number.

Tongue Weight 440 vs 600 lbs
You'll need to be very careful here. Search the forum for actual weight measurements for 2619/2720 models to give you an idea how big you can go. TM's have their axle further back to improve stability. Don't forget to consider water. My 40 gallon tank is in front of my axle and at 8.3 lbs/gal you can really load up your tongue weight. A WDH would be essential here.

Curb Weight 4,475 vs 4,762 lbs
I would have never thought that the Q5 I drove weighed this much. Of course the diesel adds a bit, but it really felt much lighter. Coupled with the AWD and Audi's stability controls, this gives some pretty good footing.

Torque: 428lbs at 1,750 rpm. Hands down winner here, especially with the 8 speed transmission. I've read reports of diesel Cayennes getting well over 30 mpg with this combo.

As you can tell I thought the Q5 was a great vehicle. You need to check to make sure the factory hitch is a Class III. It should be with that tow rating. I would also check with the dealer about what Audi thinks about WDHs. Touaregs and Cayennes say no, but we do it anyway.

Hope this helps a little. Please read the disclaimer at the top.
Oh and if you do get the Q5, be ready for the "You can't tow that with that!". It's fun to tell people about the virtues of a TrailManor.

Stan

Hi Stan,

Thank you very much for the detailed reply. It's good to hear that you've spent some time in a Q5. I'm going to check on the WDH.

As Bill pointed out, the terrain is also going to be a factor in my favor I think. I live in Houston and don't plan on towing this trailer to Pike's Peak. I will be between Houston, San Antonio and Austin mostly. If I head up to snowski I am planning to just rent an RV or trailer locally.

Would you have concerns about the transmission in the Q5? I know the engine isn't the limiting factor in the 4,400 lb tow rating (the additional torque provided by the diesel doesn't increase the rating at all), so I"m not sure if I should be worried more about transmission cooling or sway from the trailer.

I'm trying to avoid stepping up to a Mercedes M if I don't need to. By the way, how do you like the Cayenne? It was on my short list, but both the Merc M and Cayenne will add another 10-20k for comparable options.

Thanks!

Chance

[ThePair]

There are as many opinions as posters. I'll be brief. I'm one of the nuts that tow a 2720 with a minivan. I know I'm at my posted limit, but I've researched the heck out of this, and I'm quite comfortable and confident with my individual set up, needs, and geographic requirements. If you're towing in low altitude, flat areas, with the vehicle as described, I would certainly think even a 2720 would be possible for you, as long as you're traveling dry. I would never tow with fluids on board (wasted weight allowance for me), but I never go anywhere I would need to. If I ever were going someplace truly dry, I'd get a few more water carriers (I carry 2x5 gal containers, normally) and fill them separately. But, I don't travel anywhere so off the beaten path that I need to worry about it. The campgrounds have always had a spigot or pump, and yes, I've made the 3-trip shuffle to the pump just this past April (water faucets weren't on yet). Got my exercise for the day carrying the jugs back, still didn't travel with water on-board!

Ultimately the decision is yours and yours alone to make. My take-home was this: >90% of people who tow with these vehicles likely take little to no time to think about these issues. They don't get onto forums to research choices. They don't take rigs to scales to weigh them. They look at the ratings on the TT and TV, say "close enough" and just jump in. That's dangerous, no questions. So, I have to assume there's a certain "dumb" factor built into it, or we'd see far more accidents, far more mechanical failures, and far more lawsuits. Plus, keep in mind the low profile and anti-sway nature of the TM, which is never, ever part of the ratings. There's a huge difference between towing a full-height TT@3500 and a TM@3500, just like there's a big difference towing in mountains vs. flats. The specs given are static numbers, estimates, that Legal and Marketing helped develop just as much as Engineering did.

I am no expert, but you've got better specs on your TV than I do, and I've been more than satisfied with my set up. Not everyone would be, and I fully acknowledge that I'm a bit of an outlier. Just one data point, but perhaps you'll find it helpful.

We looked long and hard at the VW Touareg TDI before getting our F150 Eco. The low end torque of those German V6 diesels is just what you want for towing. You wouldn't have any problem in the mountains especially with the turbos.

But the Touareg had a much higher tow rating and hitch capacity (7500#/750# IIRC). That Audi's 4400#/440# is pretty low, especially the 440#. Also the Touareg didn't want you using a WDH, does the Audi?

And that low payload Stan reports is not good.

Like Stan and others have said, Trailmanors tend to have high hitch weights.
You could easily have 500-600# of hitch weight, overloading the hitch and leaving little room for you, child and gear.

Originally Posted by Cgermany

I ran across this handy tool while researching. It's all metric, and the vehicle models are probably a bit different in most cases as they have more diesel choices than us, but I found it useful.

http://www.towcar.info/type.php

Chance

This is interesting and illustrates some fundamental differences between European trailering practices and North American. The site is primarily concerned about the total weight differences between the car and trailer.

It does not address tongue weight at all, perhaps because most Euro caravans have a very low tongue weight relative to the trailer. The axles are usually centred on the trailer. And they never use WDHs, as the tongue weights are so low. And so I guess the TVs are not really built for Weight Distribution (at least the Touareg says not to use a WDH).

What I really don't understand is why those rigs don't sway all over the place? Maybe it's the aerodynamics and being built close to the ground?

Over here, tongue weight, WDH and its effect on the TV payload is a very important part of the trailering discussion.

[mjlaupp]

I would be most concerned with the tongue weight on the Q5 hitch. Take a look at the Q5 receiver hitch: http://www.iamaudi.com/audi-q5-tow-h...ports-service/ I don't think it would support a WDH and I can see why it would not be indorsed by Audi.

I appreciate everyone taking the time to provide information about their exeriences. I didn't find anything terribly surprising, so that is reassuring. I'm leaning toward the 27 models, more because of the full size shower than anything else. I'm confident in the TV's ability at here in the flatlands. I'll definitely add the ECB and have been thinking of modifications I could do to reduce the tongue weight. That is really my biggest concern at this point. I will also be pulling this trailer dry and could even do without the stove/oven and gas bottles. I will be trolling around here in Texas, and imagine I could get by just fine with small electric heater and some warm clothes.

Does anyone happen to have the 26 series floor plan?

Cheers,

Chance

[Bill]

Floorplans are on the Trailmanor.com website. For the 2619, hit SHOWROOM > MODELS > 2619.

Bill

[clan_salmons]

Originally Posted by Cgermany

Would you have concerns about the transmission in the Q5? I know the engine isn't the limiting factor in the 4,400 lb tow rating (the additional torque provided by the diesel doesn't increase the rating at all), so I"m not sure if I should be worried more about transmission cooling or sway from the trailer.

I'm trying to avoid stepping up to a Mercedes M if I don't need to. By the way, how do you like the Cayenne? It was on my short list, but both the Merc M and Cayenne will add another 10-20k for comparable options.

Chance

Chance,

I haven't been able to confirm if the transmission is the same as the Q7, but I suspect it is. The Cayenne, Q7, and Touareg diesels are all using the same 3.0L TDI mated to an 8 speed gearbox. It wouldn't make sense for them to build a different transmission for the Q5. If this is true, then no, I would not personally be worried about the transmission. It's the same transmission that they have bolted to the Cayenne turbo and that thing pumps out 540hp and 500 ft-lbs of torque. People are towing their track cars in enclosed 26ft trailers at well over 6,000 lbs.

I do however wish I could find a transmission temperature monitor just to keep an eye on things. I called several of the gauge manufactures and haven't found one for the Cayenne. I suspect you would be in the same boat.

The limit on the tow capacity of the Q5 may be due to the suspension and possibly the uni-body. They've got more room in the bigger trucks to beef up the capacity. The tongue weight is clearly keeping a 10% ratio. That would explain why the European tow capacity is higher. As noted earlier, they tend to move the axles forward and lessen the burden on the tongue.

As to the Cayenne, I love it. It went on my short list as a joke and then I found a great deal on a used one. I spent a just little more than I planned, but once I drove it nothing else compared. It made all the other trucks feel like they were wallowing around the turns. Fit and finish are top notch. It's not as quiet as the other trucks. It will growl when you punch it. Even the 6cyl will launch it. Would I have purchased it new? No. I am like you. The options just run the price up too fast and they depreciate just as fast. Mine was just under three years old at 40+% off sticker. There's a lot of things I can do with $25K besides watching it evaporate.

Oh, and sway is a word you won't hear much of around here.

Good luck and keep in touch. I would love to hear which way you go and how it works out for you.

Stan