Towing (another question :)

Hi, I've looked through threads for the past few days and have become more and more skeptical about the towing capacity of ANY vehicle based on my reading. I'm about to order a 2014 Audi Q5 and would like some input from people that have experience with pop-up campers. I'm not really interested in the tent type (looking at Trailmanor only).

Generally, it will just be me and my 6 year old and our bicycles, but concerts and festivals will also be likely destinations with the camper. I'm trying to determine what I can safely tow based on the specs below and people experience. The 3.0 TDI is the same engine and almost identical accompanying transmission used in the large Audi Q7 (and Toureg is maybe). The shorter wheelbase accounts for the drop in towing capacity from 6,600 lbs, and in Europe the vehicle is rated for 5,000 and change.

3.0-liter TDI® direct-injection clean diesel engine w/ 240 hp

Torque is 428 @1750-2250
(580 Nm)

Eight-speed tiptronic® automatic transmission w/ sport program & manual shift mode

quattro® permanent all-wheel drive system w/ asymmetric/dynamic torque distribution (torque split 40:60)

Trailer hitch provision in the electrical cable tree; towing capacity of 4,400lbs. (w/440 pound tongue-weight)

Wheelbase: 110.5 (2807 mm)
Length: 182.6 (4639 mm)
Curb Weight: 4475 (2030 kg)

Diesel

Based on these figures and a much lighter payload than a family of 4 would require, could you ladies and gents please comment on which of these is the largest you would consider for this vehicle?

Your statement that there is no vehicle capable of towing any Trailmanor is a bit over-reactive in my opinion. There are many vehicles available with adequate towing capacity for all TM models, but what commonly occurs on this forum is the "I have such and such a vehicle, and I want to confirm I can use it" syndrome.

What occurs at this point is two different paths typically occur. The first group says they have the same vehicle and have never had a problem towing with it. The second group, which I am a member of without reservation, is that towing anything near or above the design limits of a tow vehicle is a recipe for disaster.

You rarely see members coming on the forum looking for validation to use a F550. Trying not to be glib, but I hope you see my point.

I tow a 3326 with a Ford Expedition rated for 8200 lbs with a weight distributing hitch. I used to tow a 3124 with a V6 Trailblazer and no WDH. In hindsight that was a stupid thing to do. Nothing bad happened while I did it, except for overheating the Trailblazer in the PA mountains. I did not do adequate research on the realistic tow weights of the trailer, and relied primarily on factory "empty" weights in my decision.

In between these two TMs we hauled a 39 foot toy hauler with two motorcycles in it. That was when I got educated on towing capacity and the reality of stopping a towed trailer in emergency situations.

Towing a trailer is one consideration. Stopping it safely is another. Towing without prematurely ruining an expensive vehicle is another, or incurring excessive repair costs. The perhaps least likely but most critical consideration in my opinion is potential liability if an accident occurs and you are found to be towing over rated limits.

It sounds like you are looking at a very nice vehicle. With 4400/440 tow ratings, I would not consider it adequate for any except the smallest Trailmanors. Good luck with your purchase and safe travels.

[davlin]

Tough question Cgermany,

A diesel engine with 428 ft lbs of torque would normally be associated with much higher towing capacities. Without really being able to research Audi's specs in detail for the 2014 Q5, I can only guess that the limiting variable is the transmission. The shorter wheel base is also an issue, but this can usually be mitigated with a weight distributing hitch (WDH). I always caution new trailer owners to err on the side of "heavy" when it comes to figuring out the weight the trailer will actually be when towing. Let's start with the manufacturer's claim for empty weight. That's a trailer that's really, really empty. It will probably never weigh that again. There's no propane in the tanks, no water anywhere in the trailer. No bed sheets, silverware, etc., etc. And even with only two people using the camper, would there ever be a situation where you would have to tow it "wet," meaning water in the fresh and gray water tanks? Liquids are very heavy. So my erring on "heavy" would put the 2417 at around 32-3400 lbs, and the 2619 would be pushing 3800 to 4000 lbs. The 2417 should be doable for your Q5; the 2619 probably doesn't leave you much margin. I would never get that close to the towing capacity on a gasoline engine, but a diesel with over 400 ft lbs of torque is another matter. If I were you, I would try to find out more from Audi on how they feel about towing with the transmission, since that might be the real limiting factor. Does the Q5 come with a "tow package" option? Does that option include a beefed up transmission cooler? Whatever you use for your tow vehicle (TV) it must be equipped with a brake controller. Hope any of this helps.

Dave

[rvcycleguy]

MisterP, I understood the OP's skepticism on towing capacities was more on the line that you never can tell what's fact, fiction, from the dealer specs and doing ones own research never really gets you confident of the actual number. I don't believe there was any hint of whether there was any vehicle capable of towing a TM.

Originally Posted by davlin

Tough question Cgermany,

A diesel engine with 428 ft lbs of torque would normally be associated with much higher towing capacities. Without really being able to research Audi's specs in detail for the 2014 Q5, I can only guess that the limiting variable is the transmission. The shorter wheel base is also an issue, but this can usually be mitigated with a weight distributing hitch (WDH). I always caution new trailer owners to err on the side of "heavy" when it comes to figuring out the weight the trailer will actually be when towing. Let's start with the manufacturer's claim for empty weight. That's a trailer that's really, really empty. It will probably never weigh that again. There's no propane in the tanks, no water anywhere in the trailer. No bed sheets, silverware, etc., etc. And even with only two people using the camper, would there ever be a situation where you would have to tow it "wet," meaning water in the fresh and gray water tanks? Liquids are very heavy. So my erring on "heavy" would put the 2417 at around 32-3400 lbs, and the 2619 would be pushing 3800 to 4000 lbs. The 2417 should be doable for your Q5; the 2619 probably doesn't leave you much margin. I would never get that close to the towing capacity on a gasoline engine, but a diesel with over 400 ft lbs of torque is another matter. If I were you, I would try to find out more from Audi on how they feel about towing with the transmission, since that might be the real limiting factor. Does the Q5 come with a "tow package" option? Does that option include a beefed up transmission cooler? Whatever you use for your tow vehicle (TV) it must be equipped with a brake controller. Hope any of this helps.

Dave

Thanks Dave,

I will try and find out more about the transmission specifics; when I spoke with the sales guy earlier (that also owns a Q5 but has never towed with it), I mentioned the transmission being different from the much larger Q7 because I assumed that would be the case. It seems they are very similiar, but still, I need to check that out. I know from the Audi forums that they are used extensively to tow "caravans" that are pretty much just smaller Airstream style hard-sides.

I will definitely be getting a brake controller installed to compliment the mfr tow assembly.

I hate to throw out a question like this, but from what I'm reading people can "calculate" a pretty wide range of acceptable limits. I've had similar experiences with my CPA I appreciate your comments and definitely want to stay away from anything borderline.

Originally Posted by rvcycleguy

MisterP, I understood the OP's skepticism on towing capacities was more on the line that you never can tell what's fact, fiction, from the dealer specs and doing ones own research never really gets you confident of the actual number. I don't believe there was my hint of whether there was any vehicle capable of towing a TM.

Yes, you are correct. IRS publications seem to be more straightforward

This exact model that I'm ordering has been sold in Europe for years with a tow rating of over 5k, so it's already been padded about 800 lbs just by changing markets. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but it kinda feels like the boy who cried wolf if you know what I mean. I'm not interested in damaging my vehicle or risking an accident, but I also don't want to move up to a 5th wheel to do some weekend camping!

Thanks for the comment.

Originally Posted by MisterP

Your statement that there is no vehicle capable of towing any Trailmanor is a bit over-reactive in my opinion. There are many vehicles available with adequate towing capacity for all TM models, but what commonly occurs on this forum is the "I have such and such a vehicle, and I want to confirm I can use it" syndrome.

What occurs at this point is two different paths typically occur. The first group says they have the same vehicle and have never had a problem towing with it. The second group, which I am a member of without reservation, is that towing anything near or above the design limits of a tow vehicle is a recipe for disaster.

You rarely see members coming on the forum looking for validation to use a F550. Trying not to be glib, but I hope you see my point.

I tow a 3326 with a Ford Expedition rated for 8200 lbs with a weight distributing hitch. I used to tow a 3124 with a V6 Trailblazer and no WDH. In hindsight that was a stupid thing to do. Nothing bad happened while I did it, except for overheating the Trailblazer in the PA mountains. I did not do adequate research on the realistic tow weights of the trailer, and relied primarily on factory "empty" weights in my decision.

In between these two TMs we hauled a 39 foot toy hauler with two motorcycles in it. That was when I got educated on towing capacity and the reality of stopping a towed trailer in emergency situations.

Towing a trailer is one consideration. Stopping it safely is another. Towing without prematurely ruining an expensive vehicle is another, or incurring excessive repair costs. The perhaps least likely but most critical consideration in my opinion is potential liability if an accident occurs and you are found to be towing over rated limits.

It sounds like you are looking at a very nice vehicle. With 4400/440 tow ratings, I would not consider it adequate for any except the smallest Trailmanors. Good luck with your purchase and safe travels.

Thank you for the feedback. I agree about the smaller TMs. It may seem like splitting hairs, but I was trying to get a fix on whether it's worth special ordering a 26, buying a 27(both of which are mentioned on the brochure) or if 24' is the largest I should shoot for. This may end up as a full-time arrangement for a good part of next year while I do some sightseeing and still have my house rented out.

Thanks for the feedback.

I ran across this handy tool while researching. It's all metric, and the vehicle models are probably a bit different in most cases as they have more diesel choices than us, but I found it useful.

http://www.towcar.info/type.php

Chance

[LoveToCamp]

I have a 2417 Sport, which is the narrower of the two 2417 models. For my wife and I, it is fine. We have room to do what we want, and room for whatever we take. But, we spent 10 years in a pop-up, and don't take much more than we are likely to need for a particular trip. For example, I leave the dutch oven at home, if I don't plan to cook with it.

I weighed it last fall when it was loaded, and 40 gal water tank, dual propane tanks were full. 3300 lbs. Tongue wt was 350 lbs, if I recall. I have the AC unit, but no awning. However, I did purchase a canopy this winter, which will add about 50 lbs to my camping weight.

If you go with the 2417 Classic, it is 6" wider, which makes a big difference in the aisle between the two sides. If you aren't going to go off-road (with an Audi, I don't think you will), I would recommend the 2417 Classic. It weighs about 200 lbs more, I believe, with maybe 20lbs more tongue wt. It also depends on how you pack, what your tongue wt. is.

Go look at both the 2417 Sport, and the 2417 Classic, and I think you will see that the 2417 Classic should have plenty of room for the two of you, even for a long summer together. (Of course, the only privacy is in the bathroom, so maybe it isn't big enough for a dad and young son!)

Enjoy your shopping!

[Bill]

cgermany -

Amongst all the tech specs, you omitted what I think is one very important consideration.

Where will you tow?

It should be apparent that towing a trailer on straight roads on the flats in Florida or Indiana is very different from towing the same trailer through the Rockies or the Sierras, getting up to 10,000-12,000 feet, with steep grades (both up and down), and sharp bends that limit your speed to 10 mph (in other words, very little cooling airflow for the transmission).

Some of our members do indeed tow mostly short distances on the flats, and some tow long distances in the mountains. Both are perfectly valid uses for the trailer, but they put substantially different demands on the tow vehicle.

So where will you tow?

Bill