Gas Struts

[Wavery]

Originally Posted by EZCAMPER

Waverly, my wife and I will soon be in our 70s. It is getting more difficult for us to open. We have recently discovered that using the tongue jack to assist. We lower the tongue to open the front and then raise the tongue to open the back. Then level out. It makes a huge difference. Closing is the reverse, just remember to raise the corner jacks before you close!

Thanks for the thought. We know that. The issue with ours is that we put 2 solar panels on the front of the front roof and 2 on the rear roof. It wasn't a big deal on the rear roof but the front roof has the AC unit on it and the extra 30# does make a difference.

Lowering the tongue helps once you overcome that initial lift but it doesn't change that initial build much.

[rickst29]

Per my new edit in https://www.trailmanorowners.com/for...7&postcount=27, a pair of "120 lb" struts might provide almost 40 pounds of lift on each side, if the new TM lower box mounting bracket can handle that (without being pulled away from the floor and wall corner edge). That's more than I need, so I bought a "100 lb" pair instead.

In exchange for reduced lifting power, the puts a less stress on my lower box mounting brackets (the 1/4" thick steel L brackets, which must resist forces to both push the brackets sideways towards the back AND down from the floor). They will be held in place by only a few screws, through the floor and up into the street side + curb side walls, and maybe a couple more going through only the bottom layer of the floor.

The direction of worry is the vertical pull down, roughly equal to the push-up power (although it is an offset force of torque, and not a pure "pull". This will be mostly resisted by screws into the bottom of wall. I think there is at least a bit of wood involved in holding theses "lower box" walls to the floor, they would tend to separate from the floor if it was nothing but foam between the bottom edge aluminum layers. That would provide some structure for screws to bite into.

The floor itself, on the curb side, is bench seat storage area. I can easily add a strip of aluminum to receive through-the-floor bolts into nuts and washers. But the street side bench contains the 40 gallon water tank. I don't remember if the tank side is completely against the wall, and I can't pull it out to open up and take a look. If it is at least 1" away from the sidewall, then I could maybe add a similar narrow strip of 1/4" aluminum, with bolts through that and nuts/washers on top.

But if I CAN'T do that, the street side will have issues. There may also be some wood corner mounting trim down there (between the side wall and floor). If such corner molding is quarter-round, it can't support screws and bolts, and it definitely isn't strong enough anyway. (In that case, I will need to cut some out in order to push the edge of my metal strip strip all the way into the corner. If the corner "molding" is segment of actual board, 1/2"tick x 1" or more width, then I can probably just drill though that use bolts and washers on the top side of the existing trim.

[mainesunshine]

There are a few things to consider when altering a Trail Manor's unique suspension system. First is how the suspension system is supposed to work. When properly adjusted, there is a balance between closing force and opening force. If you want easy opening force, you make the closing force excessive. The reverse is also true. Finding that balance on all four torsion bars (per shell) is both a skill and an art, but it can be done.

Torsion bars can fatigue with time because there is no way to install more fatigue resistant steel without exotic alloys and heat treatment (titanium perhaps?). If you have run out of adjustment you could consider replacing the torsion bars. The factory has specifications for all torsion bars. If you're buying bars for the front shell, be sure to specify whether you have an awning mounted. Different bars are specified to compensate for the additional weight. While probably an unlikely delete option, the lack of an A/C unit (100 pounds) would also indicate different torsion bars. Check this directory for threads covering torsion bar adjustment or replacement. It's doable, but not easy. There are also serious safety concerns. The current factory has data on all torsion bar options, and I understand they would be glad to assist.

Regarding TrailManor possibly using or proposing a power lift system, I recall reading that one of the former TrailManor Company owners proposed making a TrailManor similar to the now defunct Hi-Lo. A better TrailManor historian than I may be able to enlighten us further. Anyhow, he sold the company to a new owner. To my mind, the Hi-Lo concept may reduce wind resistance, but does nothing to expand the basic footprint, while it did so with a significant increase in weight and complexity over a standard hardshell.
In summary, I feel that the torsion bar set-up is exquisitely suited to its purpose. While they may fatigue over (a long) time, they have never been known to fail. They also require no electricity. While I could envision some form of electrical "boost" system which would give some extra help in the beginning of the lift sequence, the complexity of the design tells me that I would rather go camping! Note that any solution of this sort needs to disengage during the folding sequence, not require additional force to close the shell.

[Bill]

Originally Posted by mainesunshine

Regarding TrailManor possibly using or proposing a power lift system, I recall reading that one of the former TrailManor Company owners proposed making a TrailManor similar to the now defunct Hi-Lo....To my mind, the Hi-Lo concept may reduce wind resistance, but does nothing to expand the basic footprint, while it did so with a significant increase in weight and complexity over a standard hardshell.

This has been discussed. TM actually prototyped two new models, both called the RISE.

https://www.trailmanorowners.com/for...ad.php?t=21360

https://www.trailmanorowners.com/for...ad.php?t=15255

Bill

[Shane826]

Originally Posted by Bill

This has been discussed. TM actually prototyped two new models, both called the RISE.

https://www.trailmanorowners.com/for...ad.php?t=21360

https://www.trailmanorowners.com/for...ad.php?t=15255

Bill

…one of which is for sale here.

https://www.rvtrader.com/Trailmanor-...SE%7C764979528

[rickst29]

Originally Posted by mainesunshine

....
Torsion bars can fatigue with time because there is no way to install more fatigue resistant steel without exotic alloys and heat treatment (titanium perhaps?). If you have run out of adjustment you could consider replacing the torsion bars. The factory has specifications for all torsion bars.

If I did not have a very aggressive and 'fine-happy' homeowner's association, I would probably buy and install new bars of the next larger size (size being diameter) in my driveway. But the disabled trailer, supported by highly visible a 2x6 supporting frame for several hours, would definitely be noticed.

As delivered from the factory, the short end of the torsion bars are all too wide to fit into the lifting arm ends, even when the bolts are loosened as much as possible. Those short ends arrive threaded, you must grind away the threads and maybe a bit more in order to fit them in.

In addition, a TM owner who just did this torsion replacement job (this very week) is reporting a new issue with too much height. It is possible that he might need to take it part again, and grind down the ends of the short arms (of the torsion bars) to make the short arms SHORTER. He of course already ground those ends for less DIAMETER, before putting the TM back together.

This grinding takes time, and my HOA will "have a fit" when the see the TM "under repair" in either the the driveway or the street.
- - -
For me, the nearest dealership who could do this job is almost 500 miles away (suburban Los Angeles). That's more than 10 hours drive each way, and a "trip" would probably require 2 nights of motel (rather than RV park stays, to assure that the dealer has ALL DAY to work on the job). The result would be better looking and it wouldn't add new parts to fail - but it would cost me at least 6-8 more money, and I can[t afford all that.

[Househunterlives]

I too have been playing around with the idea of adding shocks. Even to the point of adding the newer electronic ones that are on my Lincoln MKX. They have an internal screw motor inside of the shock. Could mount a switch to the front outside. One push of the button and it comes up. But to add shocks you need a long shock to make this work. The fulcrum to help left would be high up on the lift arm. Not down low. I also thought about replacing the torsion arms with a single shaft axle. Place a single DC motor in the center of the axle. I had a Class A with a super slide. They are super strong and have a lot, lot of torque. Had 3 DC motors and they were all coincided with each other. I even had the ability to move each motor from a control module. Why Trailmanor didn't come up with that idea. I know its all about overall weight added to the unit. But I would take the added weight for the easy opening.

[Bill]

This is a little off topic, but here goes.

This thread has gotten comparatively long, and a lot of good thinking has gone into it. For a couple years now, I've been thinking along a different line. In my case, anyway, I need help with only the first 2 or 3 feet of the lift. Once I get it that high, the rest is easy. And I am wondering if a gin pole, based somewhere on the front center of the frame in the area of the propane tanks, might do what I need.

The pole itself would be removable. At the time of need, the base of the pole would be set into a socket mounted on the frame. From the top of the pole, two cables would hang down. One cable would end in a metal saddle that would slip under the middle of the lower edge of the front shell, becoming the point of lift. The other cable would end in a T-handle, which I would grasp and pull from my standing position straddling the hitch ball. When I am done lifting, the pole and cables would be removed and stashed away.

I am thinking that one of the advantages is that it is simple, reliable, cheap, and requires minimal reworking of the trailer. Another is that it provides centered lift, which is hard now because I have to stand off to the side as I begin to lift.

As with the pair of gas struts attached to the lift arms, there is a lot of geometry to be worked out. But maybe ... The concept really needs a 3-dimensional sketch, which I am not good at. Meanwhile, I would love to hear some ideas, either yea or nay.

Bill

[rickst29]

Originally Posted by Househunterlives

.... But to add shocks you need a long shock to make this work. The fulcrum to help lift would be high up on the lift arm. Not down low.

A longer arm of moment (from the point of rotation at the torque rod) would provide more torque at the opposite end, but a "longer shock" would have less initial angle versus the lift arm. That's the disadvantage of struts versus the torsion bars, the torsion bars are at their strongest during the initial lift.

If mounted parallel to the lift bars in closed position (with no angle at at), the gas struts wouldn't provide any lifting power at all - they would only be trying to push the shells towards the middle of the TM, and the lift bars off from the torsion bars (mostly sideways sideways).

With a "20 inch" strut, only 12" long in closed position, I can create decent starting angle between the lift bar bar and the fully closed strut, without the end-mount of the strut getting too close to the ground. I've chosen my "20 inch" lower mounting points to at about the same height, from the ground, as the original battery box bars on the A-frame. I don't want to go much lower than that. With 12" closed struts, that provides an angle of about around 20 degrees, with vertical force (at that point along the bar) of about 33 lbs each with "100 lb" struts. My gas strut mounting point on the lift bars are about 14-1/4 inches down from the "bottom" end of lift bar tubing. But there is about 1-1-2 inches of additional "short arm" torsion bar length before reaching the center of the "long arm" after the bend.

33 lbs of force, applied at maybe 15-1/2 inches, makes around 45 foot pounds of added twist power at the start of rotating the shell upwards. About 11.3" of that length corresponds to the missing leg of an "inner" right triangle. (The low mounting point for these "gas struts" is towards the rear from the torsion bar twist attachment, that provides for most of the angle.)
- - -
Longer struts, e.g. 16-1/2" closed/28" open), would be attached further down the lift arm. But the angle from the strut to the lift arm, when closed, will be less. One leg of the "inner" triangle remains constrained at 4", while the hypotenuse is extended to to 16". The increase in extended length 20" to 28" allows the "virtual vertical" downward leg to be moved even further from the torsion bar fulcrum, because extended length 28" allows for a higher lift-arm bar placement point in vertical position.

The "inner triangle" fulcrum length 16.5 would provide for provides for a horizontal leg of 16.0 inches. I can add another inch for the improved horizontal positioning (a bit more than 1 inch additional), plus the unchanged constant 1-1/2" distance of the fulcrum to the bottom of the lifting bar. Total about 19 inches, up from about 14.5 inches.

The initial working angle becomes worse, providing only about 14 degrees of angle. Vertical force at the beginning of motion drops to around 25 lbs per 100 pounds of bar strength, but the moment arm is improved, so the twisting force (39 lbs per 100 lb strut arm) would be nearly the same.

The longer shocks are only slightly more expensive to buy. They are "recommended" for larger and heavier lids, and we've definitely got one of those.
- - -
I'm inclined to install and try out the parts I already bought. If added lifting power proves to be inadequate, I'll probably choose to upgrade strut power first, staying at 20" length - but the longer struts are also a possibility, if I install install the TM-bottom corner "L-bars" with enough room to move the countertop support bar attachment mount holes about 4" closer to the front end of the bar.

In support of that possible change, I'll be drilling the L-bar holes for the end "countertop support" mounting screws about 8" and 6" away from the front-most edge of the L-bar. In open position, that creates more torque within the L-bar, but its mounting should be able to handle that pretty easily.

[mickmanor]

with due respect to all prior ideas, I will offer another option:

ECLV 30'' Electric Wireless Remote Control Dining Table Coffee Table Lift,Black,110V-240V,Working Platform Computer Desk Electronic Scissor Lift

It's a lift designed for light duty work that should handle the TM shells.
Available from amazon for $279. It has "actuator" power.

The challenge would be adapting it for the front shell....

A lifting drone would be really cool, but...