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Old 04-04-2023, 05:21 PM   #61
rickst29
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Default The lower bracket assemblies are now on the TM.

I have not yet opened the TM to put push the bigger "through the floor" bolts up into the interior. It needs to be opened up to set the washers and nuts on bolt ends sticking out of the floor, and I'll need a friend with a wrench (underneath) to keep the bolt heads from turning when I tighten down the nuts from inside. I'm also still waiting for delivery on the big stainless washers for the lift arm strut mounting bolts. (The are each 2" wide, 1/8" thick.)

The 5/16 strut mount bolt goes through the arm sideways from "outside" into the TM. The the big washers let me add some smaller bolts and nuts through the washers at about 3/16 distance from the large bolt hole.

The additional holes and small bolts provide contact more area between bolts and the thin sheet metal of the two lift arm "wide" sides. That will help to prevent the strut post bolt from cutting and bending the sheet metal under load. (Al the bolts would have to start cutting together, in order for the washers to move at all.)
- - -
If I were doing this again, I would cut the holes containing deck screws about 1/8" further from the inner bend of the the L bar. TM placed their own larger screws further inward from the floor edge than I did (one of those screws is present in photo 'Inside L Bar Corner Detail'.)

Photo #1 is curb-side, looking towards the front end (with TM hitch not visible at this angle). The angled and heavy "countertop support" is 12" long before a 90-degree bend, then 6" after.

In photos #2 and #3, the 12" long end of countertop support descends from the L bar at an angle, held at that angle by two bolts 1" which go through both bars. (I think that it's strong enough - but if one or both bolts were to shear off, I could re-cut the holes to larger diameter (bigger bolts). I could also add a 3rd bolt between these two.)

photo #2 is taken from the floor underneath the trailer. You see nearly all of my deck screws, they're all going up through curb-side edge of the floor, and into bottom of the wall. (They're not straight up, they're slightly angled from each other - the same way carpenters nail 2x4 and 2x6 framing pieces together.) Closer to the top of the photo, you see 1/4" holes pre-drilled for additional bolts into the floor, not the wall. These will come up into the front bench bench storage areas, bolted into interior nuts and washers on the floor. Coming down outside the assembly lift bar itself. Above that, also outside, you see the front shell's side edge and stapled-on bag seal going "up".

I drilled those 1/4" curb side holes at greater distances from the row of deck screw holes. I hope that the resulting "holes in the floor" will be slightly away from the curb-side seat support "bottom strip" lumber segment which is present along the corner between the wall and floor. TM is closed up, I don't remember how wide (from the wall) that piece of wood actually is, but it would save work if my bolt holes all come up inside of that seat supporting segment, by at least the 1/2 the width of my 1" washers..

On the street side, my "area of floor" is almost immediately disrupted by the water tank. I except to use either smaller washers or a thin strip of 1/8" aluminum, glued to the floor and replacing a very thin strip of molding which I see in Shane's photo (previous page). I hope to have maybe 1" of width before outside edge of the the water tank. My bolt holes are all cut to be barely 1/2" in from the inside wall vertical face.
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Old 04-05-2023, 05:54 AM   #62
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Default Are the inner 'through the floor' bolts, nuts and washers even necessary?

I think that the large number of deck screws is more than sufficient for the entire anticipated load, although I don't intend to actually test that.

All of my deck screws are going through TWO layers of 1-inch wood (not only one). The floor definitely contains more wood along the street side and curb side edges - that's 1 inch thick and possibly more than 1" one wide (horizontal).

Placement of the 4 OEM bolts, holding TM's shorter and thinner L" plates against the floor, seems to imply more than 1" of width in those floor edge boards. But those plates and torsion bar guide holes are probably not carrying significant weight, even in lifted/open configuration.
- - -
All of my pilot holes were cutting into wood (not foam) all the way up. Just two screws easily hold the lower assembly in place, that's maybe 15 lbs all by itself.

I'm unsure of the actual force from these gas struts, the "ratings" may be referring to the weight being lifted. And the gas strut force will be offset from screws, creating torque with a moment arm of about 6" from the row of deck screws. But I think that they could handle all the force themselves; slightly bigger wood screws (#10 or #12) would have provided even more strength than the #9 deck screws.

I'm not going to test that. I will be using the additional 1/4" support bolt holes.
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TV = 2007 4runner sport, with a 36 volt "power boost".
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Old 04-05-2023, 09:24 PM   #63
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Default 1" shank length on the lift arm posts is TOO SHORT for thick washers.

The lift arms are about 3/4" thick, and I need about 1/4" of bolt shank sticking out the opposite side of the lift bar (next the the side of the shell) to use ALL the Threads of the terminating nut. Even if I squeeze the lift arm sides together a bit a tiny bit, there is "room" for only 1 or 2 extremely thin washers.

This "straight up bolt" style of 10mm ball mount post is not available with a shank longer than 1" (with 5/16-18 threading on the shank), or 25mm (M8-1.25 threading), which is nearly identical length.

The total length which I need, WITH my pair of really wide and thick washers (1/8 thick each), is about 1-1/2" inches. Wasting a bit more time and money, I bought some M8 - 1.25 12mm-wide round couplers off Amazon. At 20mm, the coupler length fits the lift bar thickness almost exactly.

I also bough some short M8 bolts, and cut down the shank on each of them (two bolts) so that the portion into the coupler, with the washer tight, is a bit less than 7 threads long. I put those in (with locktite).

From the outside, the lift bar ball mount post has about about 8 threads going into the coupler using the big washer alone. (I may add a lock washer between the body of the ball mount an d the big washer, in addition to some medium "locktite" in the coupler threads) This can be tightened to the limits of the 8MM SS bolts and coupler, although I will not push them anywhere near that far.

After attaching to the lift arms, I will add 5 or 6 thinner SS bolts and nuts (1/4" x 1-1/2" long, 20 TPI), arranged in a circle, close to the rim of each big washer. The bolts go wil go all the way through, using tight pilot holes through the lift bar "inside" and "outside" sheet metal plates. There is no "interior reinforcement" to prevent these bolts and nuts from collapsing lift bar from outside in, so I will be leaving the torque low on these "helpers".
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TM='06 2619 w/5K axle, 15" Maxxis "E" tires. Plumbing protector. 630 watts solar. 450AH LiFePO4 batteries, 3500 watt inverter. CR-1110 E-F/S fridge (compressor).
TV = 2007 4runner sport, with a 36 volt "power boost".
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Old 04-11-2023, 05:25 PM   #64
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Default TM Trailer floor, incuding the "wood edge", is 3" thick!

My previous "into the sidewall" deck screws felt WOOD all the way up, for both the pilot holes and the too-short deck screws themselves. As it turns out, this was entirely through the floor alone, the short screws never reached the sidewall at all.

I think that my proposed "through the floor, inside from the wall" bolts are unnecessary, the "up into the wall bolts" can handle it all if they are much longer. I am able to buy AWG-10, 4" deck screws in a 10 minute drive to a local big-box store, upgrading from the currently used AWG-9 2-1/2" versions.

I will guess that think my large number of those screws will be sufficient, with no added interior "helper" bolts at all. And, if they they strip out, I can still upgrade these bolt paths into the framing wood by drilling out my L-bar holes, so that they can accept AWG-12 deck screws (an unusual EBAY order with delays) or 1/4" lag screws.

My "100 lb" struts are probably too powerful, but I'm going to try them anyway.
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TM='06 2619 w/5K axle, 15" Maxxis "E" tires. Plumbing protector. 630 watts solar. 450AH LiFePO4 batteries, 3500 watt inverter. CR-1110 E-F/S fridge (compressor).
TV = 2007 4runner sport, with a 36 volt "power boost".
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Old 04-12-2023, 03:23 PM   #65
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Default Assembled and tried, need to use longer struts.

Here's the more important problem: My "wild *** guess" for the height of the lower strut bar end was not good, it required too much range-of motion from the 20" strut.
My two options are (1) to carefully reduce the angle of the countertop support "L", coming down from fixed "l" bar which is TM attached. Or (2) Switch to longer struts with larger rang of motion ,also cutting new holes to attach those higher along the lift bars.

With either of those choices, My current holes lift bar holes, diameter 7/16 and 1/4, will have to be be abandoned and sealed up. They are only correct for "full open" position with the current countertop support angle and the current lift bar length. The 20" struts became fully compressed before I was able to push the shell all the way down.
- - -
I could have also tried to to reduce the angle of drop in the "countertop support" bars (raising the lower ball end upwards, closer to the TM floor), but the changes would be complex to guess or "measure", and such a change would probably required two new hole cuts in through THICK THICK steel (5/8") on each side.

I have chosen the "longer struts" alternative, buying this pair instead: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0BBMCRZX5/. This pair is described as "30.9 inch, 90 lbs". Arana also has a 29" model at 85 lbs and a 28" model at 80 lbs, but the 28" version had a much later delivery date.slower delivery.

I successfully removed the lift bar assemblies shortly after the test. The not yet-cured "weaker" anti-vibration locktite which I used was not yet cured, and it gave way before well before I would have created any from excess torque on the the ball mount shank.
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TV = 2007 4runner sport, with a 36 volt "power boost".
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Old 05-05-2023, 09:51 AM   #66
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Default status update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane826 View Post
Rick- How’s that scheme coming along?
Rain+Snow, and some yard work, has delayed pulling the TM out of the garage to drill new lift arm holes for the longer struts on the front shell. I still anticipate excellent results when I find some time, probably within the next 2 weeks.
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TV = 2007 4runner sport, with a 36 volt "power boost".
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Old 07-07-2023, 11:29 AM   #67
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Lightbulb Front shell is done, seems to work VERY well. I added only one strut. (??)

(1) Fully effective with an unbalanced installation.

With just ONE of the longer struts installed on the street side, assisting the forward lift bar, I now have "pretty good" balance for raising and lower the front shell when lifting from the front curb side corner, and lowering (pushing towards the rear, then allowing the shell to settle downwards.

I tested after installing only one strut on the street side. I was very surprised to "feel" that the shell motion was fairly balanced, from street to curb, with a balancing "curb side strut" not yet added.
- - -
The initial "lift" effort is down to perhaps 40 lbs (I can still do that much with only one hand). The forwards motion at the end of lifting is now slightly over-emphasized, but stops, unassisted, very near the pin-insertion location.

It is slightly more effort than before to initiate the push-down, perhaps now also about 40 pounds - but in a horizontal direction with more upper body stress. Still pretty easy, but not as easy as before.
- - -
I had expected either the lift, or the drop, to to be unbalanced and uneven with only one strut installed. But the heights above the front corners and the rear corners (above the lowered rear shell) are nearly equal through the entire range of motion: The front-most lip stays nearly level when lifting (up and out) or lowering (inwards and then down).

Maybe one of my 16-year old front-most torsion bars bars has weakened more than the other, and the single "90-lb" strut assist brings the tow front corners into better balance. But I guess that both torsion bars are still roughly the same (both somewhat inadequate), and I did not inspect the opposing box mount box mount of the strut-assisted torsion bar. I do have the option to now slightly loosen the torsion adjustment screw on that corner, removing just a bit of strength from the current "all-in" screw position.

I shall also slightly reduce the torsion bar "strength" for the lift bar at the street-side rear corner of the front shell. With the front-most street side lift bar now assisted to carry its fair share, the front shell lift bar behind it (street side), is leaving 7 - 8" of height when dropped, before using the foot stirrup to clamp it in,0 (before using the foot stirrup to clamp it al the way down, and I understand roughly 5 inches to be a better balancing point.

(2) Plans for the opposing front-most lift bar mount.

I already built and installed the complete lower mount for the front-most street side, but adding a second strut using that mount will almost definitely create too much lifting force (i.e., too hard to lower the shell and push all the down into the locking hooks). I can leave it installed, ready for a future add on of more lift power.

But my rear shell is also extremely difficult to lift (it has a 26 lb solar panel on top, perhaps I should have used a flex panel there.) If I remove the current lower strut mounting from the front to use on the rear unchanged, it would need to be installed street side - and its mounting screws would almost certainly pierce one or more of the "H" or "C" fresh water pipes (for the tub, or for the drain valves).

To set the the correct angle of descent on the curb side (towards the rear instead of towards the front), I can either buy a new L-Bar mount for the base of the TM, or move the existing one and drill new holes. Moving the existing one and adding holes wiil be less work, I plan to do that within a few days.
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TV = 2007 4runner sport, with a 36 volt "power boost".
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Old 07-07-2023, 11:57 AM   #68
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Default

You've done an amazing job of both R&D and explaining your procedure. I (for one) truly appreciate your sharing with us. This spring has been so busy for us that I've barely even looked at the TM unless we were out camping in it.
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Old 07-07-2023, 12:29 PM   #69
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Default Important Note: I skipped installation of the 'through the floor' bolts.

Previous post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickst29 View Post
I think that the large number of deck screws is more than sufficient for the entire anticipated load, although I don't intend to actually test that.

All of my deck screws are going through TWO layers of 1-inch wood (not only one). The floor definitely contains more wood along the street side and curb side edges - that's 1 inch thick and possibly more than 1" one wide (horizontal).

Placement of the 4 OEM bolts, holding TM's shorter and thinner L" plates against the floor, seems to imply more than 1" of width in those floor edge boards. But those plates and torsion bar guide holes are probably not carrying significant weight, even in lifted/open configuration.
- - -
All of my pilot holes were cutting into wood (not foam) all the way up. Just two screws easily hold the lower assembly in place, that's maybe 15 lbs all by itself.

I'm unsure of the actual force from these gas struts, the "ratings" may be referring to the weight being lifted. And the gas strut force will be offset from screws, creating torque with a moment arm of about 6" from the row of deck screws. But I think that they could handle all the force themselves; slightly bigger wood screws (#10 or #12) would have provided even more strength than the #9 deck screws.

I'm not going to test that. I will be using the additional 1/4" support bolt holes.
I changed my mind. and I found the use of 4" deck screws in large numbers, up and into the lower box sidewalls, to be to adequate for my "90 lb struts".


The side walls of the lower box seem to contain wood edging, at least 1x1" and possibly wider than that (height of wood between the two plates in the vertical sidewall base, along the floor in the vertical wall's installed installed position).

When I pre-drilled pilot holes for my desk screws, my drill bit was cutting wood (and not styrofoam) for nearly 4" of vertical height into the wall. One of my 1/4" thick, 12" long steel angle plates is mounted with 10 of these deckmate screws, the other is mounted with 11.

In contrast: In my 2006 model, the TM OEM bolts which hold the OEM "torsion bar support plates" into the outer edges of the underside (a few inches before the 90 degree bend each lift bar) seem to be into the floor alone drilled at just a slight slight angle towards the outside from (in comparison to vertical).

That thinner and weaker OEM plate (containing the single hole for the torsion bar passs-thru) supports the torsion bar near its outside end after the shell has been raised, and downward force is pressing on the torsion bar end from the lift bar.

I do not know of any instances where the plate itself has failed, although I have read reports of failure in the bolted connection (5 bolts) between the OEM bar support plate and the floor. The lower support structure for my add-on strut is stressed in nearly the same way, in lifted position, by any remaining force force of the strut attempting to expand between its mount points.

The OEM bolt connection differs from my strut support attachment in 3 ways. #1, the OEM attachement was done with 5 bolts. (I used 8 in one case, and 9 in the other). #2 The OEM bolts have much bigger diameter than my deck screws. and #3, the OEM bolts are much shorter than my 4" deck screws screws, their threads rise only into the structure of the floor.

- - -

My desk screws rise into the side wall, by more than one additional inch, at the edge of the floor. The thicker OEM screws, if relocated to rise into the sidewall, would not gain significant holding power, because the thicker screws were leave much less width of wood in the sidewall structure (attempting to grip the screw threads). My screws are also much more numerous.
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TV = 2007 4runner sport, with a 36 volt "power boost".
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Old 07-07-2023, 12:54 PM   #70
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Default Pictures, upper attahcment assembly in use

I drilled a new holes in the lift bar for the longer length of the new strut, covering the previous holes (too "low down" along the lift bar with a segment of supposedly waterproof white 'goriila tape'. (The tape is easily replaced if it fails).

I originally cut the "big" SS washer of my upper attachment assemblies with with 3 holes - the centered hole for the strut post and opposing bolt, and TWO anti-twist holes for additional off-center bolts.

But when I actually mounted the strut, I realized that just one anti-twist bolt would be more than adequate. any attempted rotation of the main connection would need to legnthen the anti-twist bolt connection. The bolt is anchored with a lockwasher and with locktite, it will be sufficient to keep the strut mount from rotating.

Therefore I chose not to drill the the 3rd set of holes through the lift bar (for a second anti-twist bolt).
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