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Old 05-10-2008, 10:47 AM   #11
fcatwo
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Mike

I'm also in the new car shopping business and have been toying with waiting a year and going diesel. I've concluded the only justifcation is if you drive high mileage, plan to burn used cooking oil or just want to use fewer gallons of fuel regardless of cost. I have even read that our oil companies may be exporting diesel fuel because of our weak $ and high demand on the world market. The problem, as everyone knows, is that China, India and other former third-world countries are now prosperious enough to own cars and are competing with us for the limited supply of oil from traditional sources. At some price-point, whether it's $5 or $20 per gallon, other sources such as the oil shale in our western states will be viable -- but we may not like it.

But to answer your specific question, I've read every artical I could find on the internet and nobody is reckless enough to guess where it is all going. Maybe we'll know more after the super-low-sulfer diesel has been out for a year or two and things settle down. Otherwise it's just a personal choice.
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Old 05-10-2008, 04:53 PM   #12
Mr. Adventure
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Diesel fuel has more heat content than gasoline, and gasoline has more heat content than Ethanol. So, in miles per gallon, diesel fuel is worth about 10% more than gasoline and Ethanol is worth about 1/3 less. A diesel engine is also slightly more efficient than a gasoline engine. As a motor fuel, it takes 1.5 gallons of ethanol to take you as far down the road as 1 gallon of gas.

Here's somebody else's answer, which must be right because I got this in a google search:

Fuel, BTU/lb, BTU/gallon
Gasoline, 18676, 116090
#2 diesel, 18394, 129050
Ethanol, 11585, 76330
Propane, 19900, 84500
Methane, 20263, 19800 (natural gas)
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Old 05-12-2008, 09:23 PM   #13
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While we are on the subject; I've read that 1/3rd of the energy in a gallon of motor fuel is wasted as heat through the radiator and exhaust plus air-cooling of other parts that get hot, 1/3rd is wasted by mechanical drag (ever try to hand-crank an outboard motor), and 1/3rd propels the car. Even the last 1/3rd is challenged by the cars weight and air-drag. Finding a way to recapture the wasted heat energy and reduce mechanical drag should help. We could probably heat our homes with the wasted heat energy from our daily commute if we could find a way to bottle it and take it home :-).

We were in England last summer and it appeared to me that the small stick-shift car we were riding in did not have air conditioning or power steering and maybe not even power brakes. They were paying US-$8.00 per gallon for gasoline last year and who knows what they are paying now.
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Old 05-12-2008, 11:41 PM   #14
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Bosch has basically voided their warranties on injectors for EU cars running grease diesel. The fuel injection won't last long on that stuff.

Toyota makes some really sweet diesel trucks (and motors) but they can't be had in the states.
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Old 05-13-2008, 05:58 AM   #15
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Another point that I don't think anyone has pointed out yet is that a diesel makes more of its power as torque, which is good for a tow vehicle. Our Liberty CRD's 2.8l diesel has only 160hp, but 290 lb-ft of torque makes towing the trailer up hills easy.

The cost benefit analysis is close enough these days that it can be outweighed by other considerations. It's like buying a hybrid, you have to figure out for each vehicle how far you have to drive it before the better mpg outweighs the initial price premium over the equivalent gas model. It is nice that Jeep is now offering the diesel option in the base model Grand Cherokee and not just the premium package, which makes the choice a little more even.
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Old 05-25-2008, 10:14 AM   #16
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More work but consider this. Compressed Natural Gas sells in Utah for around 65 cents per gallon. We have lots of natural gas here! Other states it runs around $1.50 depending on the taxes. Mileage with a CNG conversion is about the same as gasoline. Three serious considerations though: 1. CNG seems only to be easily available in the southern and western states. Otherwise may be hard to find. You won't get it on I-90!! 2. The conversion is expensive - about $10,000 to $12,000 BUT there are federal and state rebates that start at $4,000 and can go as high as $8,000. 3. Conversion involves installing several heavy CNG tanks which will eat up a lot of space. My own take is that this is a good option for a pick-up truck but probably not for any other kind of vehicle though a local guy converted his Ford Crown Victoria.

Lots of good links if you google "CNG conversion."

Randy Lieber is a local advocate. See his position paper here:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2275855/Fu...d%20cng%20tank
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Old 05-25-2008, 11:04 AM   #17
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Yes a lot of diesel is being sent abroad, such is the global market.

There is a lot of oil still here in the US. Its not undiscovered oil, the oil companies have known about it decades. Some of it required sustain prices in excess of $40/bbl before the oil companies thought it would be worthwhile to put into production.

The problem right now are the environmentalists and the Democrats in Congress. They have been preventing production operations in lots of these places and that has kept prices high.

Some of this oil would take ten years to come to market, but it will still make an impact on the markets. Once the markets see serious commitment to production, prices will start to stabilize. US produced oil looks cheap to the rest of the world, because dollars are so cheap. All of that impacts the futures markets which has been driving oil so high.

On diesels in cars, its not just the engine that is important. Heck, we might even see diesel hybrids which would more akin to railroad locomotives! If these cars are going to be able to tow anything, then the manufacturers are going to have to install strong transmissions.

I wonder if they are going to do that. After all strong transmissions weigh more. It will likely be an option if the manufacturers detect a market for them.
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Old 05-25-2008, 02:43 PM   #18
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Default Alternative Fuels is the answer, not drilling for more oil

The problem is not with the democrats. The republicans have been the ones in charge until the last two years, even now the democrats don't have an over riding veto power. Hopefully the environmentalists will continue their work. Where are you going to camp when the environment is ruined? The answer is not oil in the solving of our problems. It's creating a competition by the use of alternative fuels. Until this happens the oil companies will control our economy and our way of life. I live in Florida and I don't want our beaches destroyed by big oil. It's not a gamble we can afford to take.
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Old 05-25-2008, 06:38 PM   #19
ng2951
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishalert View Post
...The problem is not with the democrats. The republicans have been the ones in charge until the last two years, even now the democrats don't have an over riding veto power. Hopefully the environmentalists will continue their work. Where are you going to camp when the environment is ruined? The answer is not oil in the solving of our problems. It's creating a competition by the use of alternative fuels. Until this happens the oil companies will control our economy and our way of life. I live in Florida and I don't want our beaches destroyed by big oil...
[rant]I have been living off the Louisiana coast for most of my life and the beaches are just fine. Louisiana, Texas, and Mississippi have been helping you enjoy your way of life.

The problem with environmentalists is that they do not think. The leadership of the environmental movement is hardly concerned with the environment. Tell me the ones that are walking the walk and not talking the talk. So far, they are still flying on their jets, living in their mansions, and only planting a few trees for their trouble. Call me when they move into a 3,000 sq ft house, give up the Hummer for a Prius, fly coach, and don't visit that faraway island or mountain. Truly many of the rank and file are living the way the leadership directs and this is not directed at them.

If the leadership were truly concerned with global warming (those late snows are killers aren't they...that's why they have started calling it climate change), they would be doing things differently. I suspect most of them are luddites and have a fear of technology or want to roll the world back to a much earlier time for everyone but themselves.

Everyone talks about alternative fuels, but do they look at what that entails? For example, everyone likes to talk about fuel cells and hydrogen. We get hydrogen from seawater right? Nope...FROM OIL & NATURAL GAS!!! No one will build the facilities to extract H2 because the cheap way to do it is with nuclear reactors.

Everyone remembers the oil spills off California and elsewhere, and Three Mile Island. If our technology had been static maybe the environmentalists would have a valid point. However, when TMI (Three Mile Island) occurred cell phones weren't around, computer networks were nothing like they were now, and Microsoft was a dinky small, but promising company.

In the oil patch and nuclear industries DCS (Distributed Control Systems) and IPF (Instrument Protective ?) systems are norm. Offshore, blowout protection devices work wonders. These devices offer advances in control and safety as much as desktop computers, the Internet, cell phones are over the push button phone did.

I blame the Republicans for being tepid against the Democrats and environmentalists. No one has spoken the truth yet that the environmentalists do not want cheap fuel. They want fuel to be expensive and heavily taxed--period--. The idea is to keep you from driving or hauling your trailer around.

So far, the environmentalists have done a good job. Gasoline is up over $0.80/gal in less than a year (not including what they have done to grain prices), I haven't a clue what has happened to diesel. Besides for the dems, its not a question of override authority. The dems in Congress get to write laws, the President can veto them. They can keep writing bills and wear the President out IF THEY WANT TO. I do not know why they haven't done this.[/rant off]

Let me apologize for this rant. If it gets deleted, I will not get upset. I am sure I overstepped.

The truth is alternative fuels have a long way to go. Alcohol can help, but not as long as it is limited to grains. The places where alcohol additives have worked it wasn't limited to corn alone. Corn is one of the poorer feedstocks for alcohol.

Hydrogen will likely never really work as a fuel unless fission or fusion reactors. Right now the source for H2 (hydrogen) is from natural gas and oil production. H2 is used to fortify fuels and is especially difficult to handle. The fires are invisible, leaks are diffiuclt to locate, and storage difficult.

The really big problem for H2 is how you transport it. It can be moved in current pipelines, but need about 3 times as much by volume. For current gas stations imagine have to triple the size of your tanks. Instead of one truck delivering fuel, you would need 3. Not to mention the fact of the problem is that H2 is cryogenic, meaning its colder than (just about?) any other liquid. Stuff that cold is a lot more difficult to handle than gas or diesel, even if you have your cell phone on.

I am sure in time the technology to handle H2 will be worked out, but it is going to take a decade or so to figure out. The high price of rare metals won't speed development either. Not only that, the technology has to be sound enough that an insurance company will be willing to offer insurance. The first ruptured tank that freezes a family to death, or blows the roof off a house is going to happen.

Finally do not forget that politics of the situation. If you start making your own biodiesel or using solar/wind power to charge your car, the government is going to want its cut of road use taxes.
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Old 05-26-2008, 12:29 PM   #20
Joseph
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Talking Wow! I thought the post was about towing....

Have any of you checked out the Chevrolet website lately? Seems there is a Hybrid Tahoe already out and that a Hybrid full size truck is in the works. Electric power backed up by a 4 or 8 cylinder engine. I have no hard data yet nor did I see any towing capacities but it was interesting. Seem the electric motors power the things in the city and the gas engines kick in as needed for towing or highway use. Might be something to watch out for. Sooner or later I am going to have to replace my toy.... But until that time I can buy an awful lot of gas for what a car payment averages!
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