Weight of options, etc

Hi folks:

I am a TM wantabe from Canada, (Montreal). Since we don't have any dealers in Canada, I took the opportunity to visit Spring Cypress RV in Tomball near Houston, TX during a visit to my daughter and family earlier this month. I was quite impressed, as was my son-in-law.

That's also when I discovered this TM owners' site. As with many, my concern is towing weights and I hope you folks can help.

I currently have a Chev Venture with towing package. Supposedly it will pull 3500 lbs. Many of your posts indicate the total weight of the trailer with options is substantially higher than the dry weight.

The dealer advised that with my vehicle, I should stick with one of the two smaller sizes. Personally I liked the 3023 which isn't much heavier than the 2720SL, but many of your posts have me wondering about
whether I can pull anything. Can anybody give a rough estimate of the individual weights for the most common options so I can better understand where the extra weight is coming from.

Our previous camping experience was tenting with six children so RV'ing is completely new, but now that the kids are grown and gone, I am thinking of getting back into camping

I enjoy reading messages on the site and it looks like in general TM owners are pretty happy with their units and are having fun. Maybe someday I can join you, (of course first I have to convince my wife that she will enjoy it also).

Thanks

John

[RockyMtnRay]

[quote author=armistjb link=board=22;threadid=1852;start=msg13131#msg1313 1 date=1082313521]

I currently have a Chev Venture with towing package. Supposedly it will pull 3500 lbs. Many of your posts indicate the total weight of the trailer with options is substantially higher than the dry weight.

The dealer advised that with my vehicle, I should stick with one of the two smaller sizes. Personally I liked the 3023 which isn't much heavier than the 2720SL, but many of your posts have me wondering about
whether I can pull anything. Can anybody give a rough estimate of the individual weights for the most common options so I can better understand where the extra weight is coming from.

[/quote]
There really are too many options for any of us to catalog for you...and as the factory changes suppliers from time to time, the weight of the options can change as well. But if you can tell us what options you specifically have in mind, I (and probably others) will give it a go as to weight.

As to the difference in weight between a 3023 and 2720SL, no there's not a huge amount of difference in base weight (or equivalently optioned). However (very big however), there can be a huge difference in loaded weight after you put all your personal belongings on board. The 3023 has a lot more storage and living space...and it's designed to comfortably handle 4 or more folks (the 2720SL is really a 2 to 3 person trailer). Soooo....more room to load belongings and more people with belongings means a lot more belongings are going to be brought aboard. It's simple human tendancy to fill the space available. The net effect is that a moderately optioned 2720SL (like my 2002) weighs around 3600 lbs when loaded with 4 days clothing and food for just me. I suspect a moderately to fully optioned 3023 when loaded with 4 days food and clothing for a family is going to weigh around 4500.

The bottom line is a 2619 or 2720 (any) that is lightly optioned and loaded will be about all your minivan is going to comfortably pull (the traditional rule is a loaded trailer should not exceed 80% of your vehicle's tow rating). And that's only on fairly level ground at low altitude...go into mountainous regions or worse, high altitude mountainous regions, and it will be be really struggling at times. And, incidentally, nearly all tow ratings are based on an empty tow vehicle (no cargo or passengers) with a nearly empty gas tank and a 150 lb driver. If you add 500 lbs of passengers and cargo to the van (very easy to do with just 2 adult passengers and some suitcases in the back), your tow rating is only 3000 lbs (basically an empty but moderately optioned 2619).

[Denny_A]

[quote author=RockyMtnRay link=board=22;threadid=1852;start=msg13134#msg1313 4 date=1082315796]
And, incidentally, nearly all tow ratings are based on an empty tow vehicle (no cargo or passengers) with a nearly empty gas tank and a 150 lb driver. If you add 500 lbs of passengers and cargo to the van (very easy to do with just 2 adult passengers and some suitcases in the back), your tow rating is only 3000 lbs (basically an empty but moderately optioned 2619).
[/quote]
It seems to me that tow ratings tend to be limited by the frame and running gear strengths or shortcomings. So a minivan is limited by its "lack" of a truck frame. A tow rating of "up to" 3500 lbs means that if the trailer is 3500 lbs and the TV weight is = GCWR - 3500 lbs, the combo is at its absolute limit. Any more weight in the TV would require an equal amount to be removed from the trailer.

Having said that, your example is quite correct, if it's stipulated that "at GCWR" any additional weight is unacceptable in either vehicle. If that means reducing trailer weight to comply with added TV cargo, than so be it!

Example: Odyssey; GCWR = 8200 lb, Van = 4200 lb. Ad 3500 lb trailer wt; Total Wt = 7700 lbs. Full tank = 160 lbs.; Two PAX = 300+ lbs. ....... Total = 8160 lbs. Danmation. More cago means the Trailer weight needs to be decreased.

For minivan peeps - know the vehicles GCWR , Vehicle empty weight and tow limit. Do the math to know the extent of its limitations before committing to a TrailManor.

Denny_A

Ray:

Thanks for your speedy reply. As I mentioned I am pretty new to this but the options that immediately come to mind are: awning, air condtioning, spare tire, jacks, propane??.

I am open to suggestions as to what others I might need or want.

At the moment, we are only two regular sized people though at some point we might include a small grandchild or two. As to luggage and other supplies I guess we would have to really count the pounds and decide what is needed vs what would be nice to have.

John

[RockyMtnRay]

[quote author=armistjb link=board=22;threadid=1852;start=msg13142#msg1314 2 date=1082334710]
Ray:

Thanks for your speedy reply. As I mentioned I am pretty new to this but the options that immediately come to mind are: awning, air condtioning, spare tire, jacks, propane??.

I am open to suggestions as to what others I might need or want.

At the moment, we are only two regular sized people though at some point we might include a small grandchild or two. As to luggage and other supplies I guess we would have to really count the pounds and decide what is needed vs what would be nice to have.

John
[/quote]
The TM awning runs around 75 lbs; the roof AC should be about 150 installed; spare tire with carrier is about 70 lbs; jacks are around 40 total (installed); and propane (with OPD) is a bit over 8 gallons X 6 lbs/gal or roughly 50 lbs. That all adds up to around 325 (rounding up for a bit of a fudge factor). And don't forget any water you have on board...at 8 lbs per gallon, the stuff adds up very fast. For instance, filling the toilet to the charge level (3 gallons), hot water heater (6 gallons) and fresh water tank (20 gallons) adds about 230 lbs. And we're still not including clothes, food (especially beverages...water again), and sundries like a microwave, lawn chair, etc.; etc. As TC notes above, his 2619 (factory dry weight of 2673) somehow acquired about another 800 or so lbs by the time he got it ready for the road...and his experience is pretty typical.

And when it comes to people weights, the official (FAA) "regular size" is (IIRC) 165 lbs for adult men and about 120 lbs for adult women. The reality is most folk who are old enough to have grandchildren are a lot heftier...around 225 (or more) for guys and probably 170 to 190 for gals. Add in luggage and general stuff (grill, cooler, various toys, etc.) and you'd better be assuming around 600 to 700 lbs for the two of you and a grand kid or two with "necessary" luggage and "camping stuff". Minivans have lots of storage space...the tendancy...which is extremely hard to fight...is to bring extra stuff along "just in case".

Bottom line is your Venture is gonna be huffing and puffing on level ground and truly groaning if you head into mountainous areas. The first place all this extra strain likely will show up will be in transmission problems of some kind...and automatic transmissions cost a bundle to fix.

Hi the wife and I picked up our 3023 a couple of weeks ago and the delivery weight with options was around 3250lb. The dry weight w/o options is listed as 2915 for a difference of 335lb. The options we got were AC, awning, TV antenna, hanging cabinet, microwave box with drawer, 20k furnace, hanging TV shelf, and swing around tongue. Hope this helps.

The jacks and spare are not options and are included in current manufacture trailer weight published on the placard in the trailer.

[fcatwo]

We are towing a 2619 (spare tire is only option) with a Honda Odyssey from which we remove the second and third row seats. We pack light but the combination still weighs about 8,100 lbs on certified scales. Your Venture may be a little lighter than the Odyssey but I suspect the combination and options you are describing will be in the 8,500 to 9,000 lb range, possibly more.

I read an account the other day by someone who lost their trailer brakes going down a mountain and it sounded like a pretty harrowing experience. Sure the guys on here who tow their TMs with huge trucks probably also wear belts and suspenders with their elastic waist pants but they can handle emergencies like that.

Frank

[mjlaupp]

[quote author=fcatwo link=board=22;threadid=1852;start=msg13157#msg1315 7 date=1082411906]I read an account the other day by someone who lost their trailer brakes going down a mountain and it sounded like a pretty harrowing experience. Sure the guys on here who tow their TMs with huge trucks probably also wear belts and suspenders with their elastic waist pants but they can handle emergencies like that.[/quote]

Belts and suspenders don't help in a situation where disposibles are needed

I wasn't going to weigh in on this thread since everything seems to be well covered, but then I saw the mention of loosing brakes on a mountain. Don't know if I'm the one who you read about, but I did loose the brakes coming over a pass in Colorado towing our TM with my Ranger. Not a "big" truck by any means. While it was unnerving I always felt in control and was able to keep the speed way down using 1st gear and judicious use of the service brakes on the TV. Fortunetly there was no need for anything disposable that day.

Now with that said, I also towed a small (under 1500lb) pop-up with the same truck. No brakes on the pop-up. Which combo do you think stopped better -- TM or pop-up? To this day I'm not sure. That pop-up was also towed by a Ford Aerostar (8500 GCVW, 4400 tow rating) and it didn't stop the pop-up as well as the Ranger.

So everything above has made me a believer in having rock solid braking capacity. I think it is more important than the "go" capacity of a TV. If you take your rig to a large, EMPTY place where it is safe and disable the brakes on the TM, how's your TV do stopping it?

Now, this is my opinion and some agreee with it and others do not. Most minivans made today are not capable tow vehicles for something the size of a TM. The GVWR, GVCW, hitch ratings, and so on are being pushed to or beyond the limits. These vans do not have a solid frame, but rather a build much like a modern sedan with unibody construction. Nothing wrong with that, but not a good base for a TV. The braking system will be working at max capacity, as will the suspension and drivetrain. In the past Chevrolet and Ford made minivans with more repspectable tow ratings. Both were rear wheel drive. Front drivers are not great at towing, other posts on this board go into situations where poor traction with a front driver made for unpleasant situations. Most of the TM models today would be well matched to a TV with a rating of 5000# or a little more. All of those would fit into the needs a weight distributing hitch catagory (another area of much discussion in other threads).

So after all that rambling... the Venture will move the TM down the road. But at what cost is debatable. Transmission failure, brake problems, handling problems and overloaded conditions (an near certainty) are all possabilities. Plus, at the end of a day of driving do you get out relaxed or as a bundle of nerves with white knuckles?

Just my very long winded 2¢.
Camperboy