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Old 12-15-2010, 11:20 AM   #11
cochise
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Originally Posted by harveyrv View Post
A couple of issues......
1, 1000# is probably too much for any TrailManor. I know a lot of people use them but they can put unnecessary loading on the TM axle. Your tongue weight is probably ~500#. You may be better off getting a 600# WDH.
2, I would be concerned about the quality of the spring bars. If there is one thing that China does poorly, it's steel. Chinese steel has been a problem for years and that is part of the reason they can produce so cheaply. Spring steel is a technical process that I'm not sure the Chinese take great care at. It appears that some of the stuff that they produce is made to sell. They don't seem to be real concerned that it is made to work, much less last.

3, $200 isn't a real great price. I would far rather buy a used, quality WDH on craigslist than take a chance on that one.

I buy a lot of stuff from HF (probably ($150-$200 per month). I had some good experiences and some bad experiences. I would not buy something from them that has to do with towing safety.
The 1000# is the max load that you can put on the spring bars, not what you should put on them. Besides the spring bars will shift the weight to the TOW vehicle from the tongue!
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Old 12-15-2010, 11:30 AM   #12
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Although some brand name quality products are "made in China" it is usually to US specifications and with US quality control to uphold the manufacturer's reputation.
I really wish that i could depend on that.

I no longer have much faith in the ability of us companies to be able to control what happens in china. In the last few years, there have been many bad products dumped into our market place-- many with usa brands on them.

Just to name a few, tainted drywall, poisoned pet food, lead and other undesirable metals on toys.

Tim
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Old 12-15-2010, 01:43 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by cochise View Post
The 1000# is the max load that you can put on the spring bars, not what you should put on them. Besides the spring bars will shift the weight to the TOW vehicle from the tongue!
Not exactly........The 1000# is the max static tongue weight that should be put on the WDH.......BIG difference.

It's best to keep the the rating of the WDH close to the actual tongue weight (about ~25-50% extra margin....500# TW ~600-800# IMO). When you use a WDH that is rated too high, there is less flex in the spring bars and the possibility of extreme shock loading to the trailer and TV front axles because the spring bar is too rigid for the load carried. A 1000# rated WDH on a TM is over 100% higher than what the WDH is designed to handle. It is sorta like putting 1-ton springs in a 1/2 ton pick-up. Instead of the springs doing the job that they are meant to do, most of the shock-loading is transferred to the vehicle and the vehicle gets an unnecessary beating.

The WDH distributes the tongue weight (approximately) 1/3 to the TV rear axle, 1/3 to the TV front axle an 1/3 to the trailer axle. When the trailer is static, a 500# tongue weight should place ~160# on the TV rear axle, 160# on the TV front axle and 160# on the trailer axle (if the WDH is adjusted properly).

The problem comes in when you use an over-sized WDH. With a 600# rated hitch, the max that will be placed on the trailer axle (when going over bumps and dips in the road) would be ~200#....800# WDH ~266#.If you use a 1000# rated WDH, you can have up to ~333# additional weight placed on the trailer axle.

One must also keep in mind all of the extra cargo that is carried in the back of the TV. The shock loading of that cargo (when going over bumps and dips) plays a roll in the shock loading to the Trailer axle (and TV front axle) as the rear of the vehicle places heavier loads on the spring bars when the rear goes down (from inertia) and the TV springs can absorb less of the shock.

IMHO.......that may be one of the reasons that we see so many blow-outs on these TMs.
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Old 12-16-2010, 07:29 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by harveyrv View Post
...The WDH distributes the tongue weight (approximately) 1/3 to the TV rear axle, 1/3 to the TV front axle an 1/3 to the trailer axle. When the trailer is static, a 500# tongue weight should place ~160# on the TV rear axle, 160# on the TV front axle and 160# on the trailer axle (if the WDH is adjusted properly)..
Not exactly........

The reason to use a WDH is to take enough weight off the rear axle of the tow vehicle to prevent it being overloaded, and prevent the front axle from being unloaded by the tongue weight because you need it for steering and braking. This is why you need a WDH, even on a long wheelbase pickup.

The 1/3 - 1/3 - 1/3 illustration is extreme in view of the scale numbers people are actually reporting. I question whether this could be the specific intention of any hitch manufacturer, and I'll bet the cost of the weigh ticket that there is absolutely no way this ratio could be actually achieved (For example, 600# bars and a 600# tongue weight with the bars set at max can't push anywhere near 200# to the front axle and 200# to the trailer axle in our rigs). Is there a source for any of this, or is this something just made up for us to think about?

Instead, 1/6, 2/3, 1/6 is perhaps closer to reality on the scales, and even that could be hard to achieve. Different vehicles need different bars to get the desired effect (the longer the wheelbase, the more bar you need, for example). I suspect 600# bars would be harder to use than 1000# bars because they would have to be set closer to their max. When the hitch manufacturer is offering one bar that's rated for tongue weights between 600# and 1200#, maybe that means we don't need to be special ordering 800# bars based on untested speculations.

Trailmanors with 14" tires seem to be at increased risk of tire failures and overloaded axles may be a contributing factor. Carrying less in the trailer is the answer (especially water).
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Old 12-16-2010, 08:32 AM   #15
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I've heard the "bumps and dips" argument before, but like Mr. Adventure, am not sure whether it's just speculation, or if somebody has shown that it's really a concern.

I guess the dips would increase the spring bar's tension. And bumps should lessen it, putting more weight back on the TV's rear axle. And I suppose somebody could try to calculate the change in spring bar tension by looking at the change in angle between the TV and trailer. But putting that back into the real world would be tough.

And presumably any axles's max rating is for long-term usage, but it should also be designed for occasional "bumps and dips" exceeding that. But just how much and how many?

Anyway, I'm just not sure this is really an issue at all.
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Old 12-16-2010, 09:47 AM   #16
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I've heard the "bumps and dips" argument before, but like Mr. Adventure, am not sure whether it's just speculation, or if somebody has shown that it's really a concern.

I guess the dips would increase the spring bar's tension. And bumps should lessen it, putting more weight back on the TV's rear axle. And I suppose somebody could try to calculate the change in spring bar tension by looking at the change in angle between the TV and trailer. But putting that back into the real world would be tough.

And presumably any axles's max rating is for long-term usage, but it should also be designed for occasional "bumps and dips" exceeding that. But just how much and how many?

Anyway, I'm just not sure this is really an issue at all.

Bumps and dips are an expected part of every suspension system. When the first ox cart had the first axle failure, it probably had something to do with a load and a pothole instead of happening while it was peacefully parked out in front of the cave.
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Old 12-16-2010, 10:38 PM   #17
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Bumps and dips are an expected part of every suspension system. When the first ox cart had the first axle failure, it probably had something to do with a load and a pothole instead of happening while it was peacefully parked out in front of the cave.
That's correct and it is also why one should have an appropriately rated WDH.

To take it to the extreme, if one were to use a WDH that was rated for a 10,000# TW, the spring bars would never flex and the rear TV wheels would never absorb the "Bumps & dips" resulting in all extra loading going to the trailer axle and TV front axle.
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Old 12-17-2010, 08:02 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by harveyrv View Post
That's correct and it is also why one should have an appropriately rated WDH.

To take it to the extreme, if one were to use a WDH that was rated for a 10,000# TW, the spring bars would never flex and the rear TV wheels would never absorb the "Bumps & dips" resulting in all extra loading going to the trailer axle and TV front axle.
You can take it to the extreme and weld your trailer tongue to the hitch ball too, but I don't think that would make this conversation or anything else better either.

If one were to actually use a WDH and spring bars awhile, one might be able to offer better opinions about them. Then, one would be sticking closer to one's actual knowledge and experience instead of making up wild and unfounded speculations to burden others with.
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