More Marathon tire failures

[Bill]

A week ago, we left our home in Scottsdale, AZ for a trip to Moab, Utah, to meet our grown kids and spend several days in Arches National Park. Our route took us up through the Navajo Reservation in northern Arizona. If you know “the rez”, as they call it, you know it is huge, almost as large as South Carolina, for example. Almost all of this is empty space, with dozens of miles between even the smallest of villages. No services of any kind, no cell phone service, very few cars on the road. Very pretty, and well worth seeing, but truly the empty quarter. In other words, not the place to get lost or break down.

We had just passed through Mexican Water, Arizona, a quiet community of a dozen or so people, when we blew a tire. Yup, a Goodyear Marathon. During the half hour it took to change the tire, not a single car passed by, but the day was nice, the temperature moderate, and the tools all at hand. Of course, once the tire is changed, you can’t just drive further into the rez with no spare, so we turned around and back tracked to Holbrook, AZ, which has a Goodyear store! They were quite willing to sell us a new Marathon – they sell a lot of ‘em, they say – but the store is locally owned and so they were quite unwilling to discuss warranty compensation.

This tire had perhaps 500 miles on it, and still had full tread depth. We had been religious about maintaining speed at 65 mph or less. Pressure checked that same morning. Cool day. Good road. We were traveling light, since we were going to be gone for only a few days. In other words, no reason for the failure other than the fact that it was a Goodyear Marathon.

At the Goodyear store, we realized that we still had ahead of us the majority of the ride through the rez. To ensure safe passage, my wife (aka The Worrier) insisted that we not only replace the blown tire so that we would have a spare, but that we buy a second wheel and tire, giving us a second spare. Good thing. On our way home yesterday, we went through Monument Valley, home of many John Wayne movies and another extraordinarily beautiful place. We had just gotten through Mexican Hat (a little smaller than Mexican Water, but otherwise similar) when another tire blew. Yes, another Marathon.

By this time, I’m getting pretty good at changing tires. I feel like Ralphie’s old man (played by Darrin McGavin) in A Christmas Story, who bets that he can change a flat on the old Oldsmobile in 8 minutes. Of course, my wife is getting pretty good at handing me all the tools just at the moment I need them. That helps a lot.

So anyway, same story on this tire. Nearly new tire, pressure checked earlier in the day, good road, cool day, moderate speed, weight well under the limit. But it is a Marathon. This time, of course, we didn’t have to stop to buy another tire, since we had that all-important second spare. I'll fight with the local Goodyear people tomorrow.

Interesting side note. When the first tire failed and we were waiting for the new ones to be mounted and balanced, I talked to the owner of the store. When he learned that I would never be back there again and he wasn’t sacrificing a sale, he opened up. It seems that Goodyear has had terrible trouble with the Marathons, both 14” and 15”. In an effort to solve the problems, they are closing the US/Canadian/New Zealand manufacturing plants, and are building a state-of-the-art plant in China for most of their tire manufacturing. Until that comes on line and they get some data on the new tires, the problems with Marathons will continue. When I asked if there are better tires, he said no, but there are worse ones. His advice – stay away from Carlisle, Nanking, and Denon. And don’t try to use an LT tire on a trailer. Other than that, we’re kind of stuck.

TRAIL MANOR, if you are listening, something has to be done about this situation. It is completely unacceptable. This is five tire failures in 5 years for me, the last four in the last 18 months. Please, either find a better tire (you wisely abandoned Carlisle a few years back), or tell us how to use bigger tires on our campers, even if they are Marathons, to gain a little load margin.

And by the way, I'm very pleased to say that once again, the TM handled perfectly through both of these failures. No swaying, bouncing, or other bad behavior of any kind. TM, if you could supply a tire that works as well as the rest of your design, it would be wonderful.

Bill

[fcatwo]

That's tragic. You have far more than your share of tire problems. You can of course add several hundred lbs of capacity by putting 225-D rated Marathons on your trailer with 15" wheels having the 5-bolt, 4-1/2" spacing. Not cheap but might be enough to solve your problem. As for Goodyear, methinks they are just using this to cover a move to China and to punish their U.S. union.

Of course the logical thing to do is trade for the double-axle TM3326 that your wife wants. It's quite possible your problems will persist until you do so:-). I know I shouldn't be making jokes about a serious situation but that would give you peace-of-mind.

[B_and_D]

Wow, that's not good to hear! We bought 3 new Marathons within the last 3 years or so.....so far they've been OK, but we don't travel nearly as far as you do, and of course, being in CA, we aren't supposed to drive over 55 with the trailer.....

Did you have any damage from the blowouts?

[Bill]

Frank mentioned

... 225-D rated Marathons on your trailer with 15" wheels

Frank -

Have you done this? Will they fit? I think this is the most sensible solution, but two Goodyear dealers have peered into the wheel well and told me they won't fit. Experiences, please! If you've already told the story, please shoot me a link!

And yes, I seem to have more than my share of failures, but I also put more than my share of miles under the TM each year. I think the equation tracks correctly. More miles = more failures - but the failure rate is way too high.

And don't even suggest to my wife that we get the much-coveted 3326!

And Leon asked

I always travel with 50 psi and at 60 mph....What is your pressure and speed?

I travel with 50 psi and 65 mph on Interstate-quality highways - slower on rougher roads, of course. I recently decided to experiment with higher tire pressure/same speed, as the Goodyear website suggests you can do. On these latest two failures, one tire was running about 52 psi, the other about 58 psi.

I'm stumped.

Bill

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by Bill

Frank mentioned Frank -

Have you done this? Will they fit? I think this is the most sensible solution, but two Goodyear dealers have peered into the wheel well and told me they won't fit. Experiences, please! If you've already told the story, please shoot me a link!
<snip>
Bill

Being as how my OEM Marathons had seen 5 towing seasons and were over 5 years old (made in November 01), this week I went out and bought a pair of Nankang LoadMax trailer tires (ST) in the 225/75R15 size ("D" Load Rating) and had them mounted on 5 bolt 15X7 rims with the 4.5 inch bolt circle. While I was at it I had them installed with metal valve stems.

Why Nankang you may be asking. Well...the manager of the local Tire World store (it's a local chain, methinks) is a friend who also owns a '96 TM and an '03 Tundra. What a Co-inky-dink. And he's also a very good friend of one my longest term software clients. With that relationship as the foundation for an honest, straight deal, he told me that he's had excellent results from Nankang trailer tires (on travel trailers and the utility trailers used by local landscapers). Furthermore, that would be the tire he would mount on his own TM. Done deal, I'm thinking...especially since he sold the tires to me for only $73 each (found an eBay listing for 205/75R15 Nankang Loadmax trailer tire that had a buy now price of $169 so I'm thinking I got a pretty decent deal).

Yesterday afternoon (Sunday) I tried to install them.

They do fit...sort of. As a reminder, my 2720SL TM still has the OEM 3500 lb axle and it has the factory installed lift kit. After installing these tires, I checked clearance on all sides and here's what I found:

• As expected, these tires do have roughly a 3/4 inch larger radius and 3/4 inch larger width than the stock (215/75R14) tire.
• Clearance above the tire: Although the trailer is currently empty for winter storage, there was about 3 ~4 inches of static clearance between the top of the tire and the inside bottom of the wheel liner. I seriously doubt the suspension has that much travel so clearance above the tire is not likely to be a problem. Especially considering the 3/4 in smaller radius stock tire has apparently no clearance issues even without the 2 inch lift kit!
• Clearance between the inner sidewall and the inside of the wheelbox liner: around 2 inches. No problem.
• Clearance behind the tire...between it and and a lateral frame piece: about 1 inch at a minimum. No problem here.
• Clearance in front of the tire: About 2 inches at a minimum. No problem at all.
• Clearance between the outer sidewall and the removable fender skirt: Zero; the ~3/8 inch deep stiffening ridge on the inside of the fender skirt was lightly pressing against the sidewall. Big problem.

Sooo, the 2 Goodyear dealers were right. Sorta. When I laid a straight edge across the wheel well opening, I determined the outermost part of the tire sidewall was recessed roughly 5/16 inch inside the wheel well opening. Not enough to clear the ridge on the OEM fender skirt but still inset enough that the opening could be safely closed off so the lower shell's bottom seal could press against a solid surface.

I first attempted to alleviate the problem by thoroughly warming up the fender skirt with my trusty heat gun and then flattening out the ridge. That actually worked...until the plastic cooled down and the skirt warped itself back against the tire. grrrrrr

So then I did the brute force thing...I got out my snips and cut out about 2 inches of the bottom of the fender skirt (up to about where the skirts indentation started)...I started each cutout roughly 2 inches in from each end of the bottom of the skirts. That solved the clearance problem but introduced a new issue: the bottom seal of the rear shell is only about 1 inch tall...leaving a roughly 1 inch wide opening. Which means a trip down a wet road is going to produce a heckuva lot of spray on the lower shell walls....right about where the bathroom is on the street side.

Unfortunately I ran out of day before I could try another fix. When I pull the trailer out again in about 2 weeks, I'm going to try riveting some stiff sheet metal to the outside of the fender skirt so that it covers my newly created gap and provides something for the seal to press against. I've still got some UHMW tape so will apply some of that to cover the seam and rivet heads and make it easy for the lower shell seal to slide down. Since the sheet metal is flat and will be on the outside of the skirt, there shouldn't be any tire clearance issues...I'm expecting to see around 5/16 inch. Just in case, I'll put some of the UHMW tape on the tire side of the sheet metal as well.

Will let everyone know how my modified fender skirt works out.

[fcatwo]

I found the same thing Ray. I just went out and ran my hand between the skirt and a 14" Marathon and there was so little room my hand touched both front and back. There is no more than 1/2" clearance between the 14" tire and skirt. I have to wonder how TrailManor is putting 5000lb axles and 15" tires on some of the smaller trailers -- or the larger ones for that matter as they are all listed as the same width. Rims with different offset perhaps? Then again, 15" Marathons are only 0.3" wider than 14s according to Goodyear's specs (8.5" vs 8.8") and half of that should not use up the whole 1/2" clearance. Maybe your new tires are wider/bigger than 15" Marathons or the new rims are slightly different?

[Bill]

Originally Posted by fcatwo

Rims with different offset perhaps?

That would be my guess, too. We need to find rims with an offset that will center the tire in the well. A good tire shop should be able to do this, I would think. Ray, have you been back to your friend the tire dealer? Or for that matter, a call to the TM factory might yield the needed info. As Frank notes, the factory installs 15" wheels and tires on some TMs, using the same wheel well liner as they use on the 14" models. I suppose the axle length could be different ...

Anyway, it would seem to me (and this thought is the result of NO expertise!) that if you have 2" of clearance on the inside of the tire, you shouldn't have to muck with the fender cover. Wmtire, your thoughts?

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill

That would be my guess, too. We need to find rims with an offset that will center the tire in the well. A good tire shop should be able to do this, I would think. Ray, have you been back to your friend the tire dealer? Or for that matter, a call to the TM factory might yield the needed info. As Frank notes, the factory installs 15" wheels and tires on some TMs, using the same wheel well liner as they use on the 14" models. I suppose the axle length could be different ...

Anyway, it would seem to me (and this thought is the result of NO expertise!) that if you have 2" of clearance on the inside of the tire, you shouldn't have to muck with the fender cover. Wmtire, your thoughts?

Bill

Well, coming in on the backside of the conversation, I had to read everything to catch up.

Yeah, I would say, if you can find the rims with a different offset, that will make your tires center into the wheelwell more, then you shouldn't have to make any modifications to your fender skirt. 2" of free space to the inside should allow for this, fairly easy.

I am also looking and learning on the way the Trailmanors are made. Just looking at the floor plans, it seems to me that the only differences in all but the biggest double axle trailer, is lengths fore and aft of the kitchens. I am assuming that the axle placements are in the same location for all but the double axle model. I keep hearing of the lift kit (either factory or retrofit). To save some time trying to find it on the forums, can someone explain exactly what/why this was.(or at least link me to the forum) Here again, my assumption is you needed to LIFT it to put bigger tires.....either to raise the clearance of the TM or for load carrying capabilities for the trailer/tires....or both.

I can't tell everyone how much I appreciate these forums and the members who comprise it. I have learned so much about my trailer, without ever have taken it camping yet.

[RockyMtnRay]

Originally Posted by Bill

That would be my guess, too. We need to find rims with an offset that will center the tire in the well. A good tire shop should be able to do this, I would think. Ray, have you been back to your friend the tire dealer? Or for that matter, a call to the TM factory might yield the needed info. As Frank notes, the factory installs 15" wheels and tires on some TMs, using the same wheel well liner as they use on the 14" models. I suppose the axle length could be different ...

Anyway, it would seem to me (and this thought is the result of NO expertise!) that if you have 2" of clearance on the inside of the tire, you shouldn't have to muck with the fender cover. Wmtire, your thoughts?

Bill

Nope, haven't been back to the tire shop nor will I have time to do so before my upcoming trip. Yeah, it would be nice to experiment with replacing the wheels I bought with wheels that might have a different offset but between work and travel, there simply is no time to do that until maybe this coming autumn. I also suspect there's not a whole lot of choice period (including offset) for 15X7 rims with the 4.5 inch, 5 bolt pattern. And a 15X7 rim is pretty much a necessity for 225 width, D rated tires.

In any case, I've already hacked up the fender skirts. The fix I have in mind will probably take half an hour with a rivet gun, a piece of sheet metal, my tin snips, some quick dry spray paint, and some UHMW tape. And then I'll be good to go. Admittedly it won't look as nice as the original factory appearance but it'll be good enough for me. And given that my closest campground neighbors are usually (hopefully) 50 to 100 feet away on either side, it's very unlikely anyone else will ever notice.

[rickst29]

Originally Posted by fcatwo

There is no more than 1/2" clearance between the 14" tire and skirt. I have to wonder how TrailManor is putting 5000lb axles and 15" tires on some of the smaller trailers -- or the larger ones for that matter as they are all listed as the same width.

As you all know, I have the installed-at-build-time 5000 lb axle on my 2619. The reason it works OK is, the 5000 lb axle system (in comparison with the 3500 system) actually provides slightly MORE additional height between the center of the axle and the TM floor than the lift kit does. (It looked like my garage door couldn't take BOTH the taller axle and a lift kit, so I went with ONLY the axle upgrade.)

Unfortunately for this posting, the tires are (right now) completely off the ground, fully unloaded for winter storage. Without any load at all, my smallest gap is 1.5 inches, at an angle along the wheel diameter, to the wheel skirt/floor "corner at the front side of the wheel well. When I set the TM down on the wheels and load it up, and add hitch weight back via the WDH, this of course becomes quite a bit tighter. But I've probably got at least as much room as the 1/2" you quoted for the standard 14" tire--- I inspect the tires before each drive, and I would've been real concerned if I'd seen less distance than that.

I'll provide an exact measurement the next time I take it out.