3023 Tongue Weight Help

[mausmobile]

Hi everyone-

New TM owner and this is my first post in the forum, so please be gentle with me.

We recently upgraded from a 14ft popup to a 2007 TM 3023, and we LOVE it. We've taken it on two trips, one across the Rockies, and my husband thinks it tows fine.

Our 4Runner has a 5000 lb tow capacity, and the TM comes in under 4000 lb with our camping stuff loaded inside. I thought we were in good shape. But then I decided to be a good egg and take our rig to the CAT scale. Uh-oh...

Our hitch is rated for 500 lbs tongue weight, and If I calculated everything correctly, we're at 580 lbs! That is with the following:

Two cheapie 6V batteries from Autozone (32 lbs each)
Two full propane tanks
A PVC dump station pipe holder mounted on the tongue
Not a drop of water in the camper

We were hoping to upgrade to standard GC2 6V batteries (an additional 62 lbs) and to be able to carry water. To simulate this, we filled up the 40 gallon water tank and put 60 lbs of exercise weights on the battery box and reweighed. Total weight of the camper was still about 4100, but the tongue weight shot up to 800 lbs! (19.5%)

We can probably get by with the camper in its current configuration. But without decent batteries and at least some water, our boondocking hopes are dashed.

To compound the issue, I've read that we shouldn't use a WDH with the V6 4Runner because the hitch is mounted to a crossmember.

Is there anything else we can do to lower the tongue weight?

Anyone else towing this size TM with a 4Runner?

[Shane826]

Are you sure? That seems REALLY high! I know TMs have a higher tongue weight because the axle is so far back to prevent sway, but still. Here are a few ideas to reduce tongue weight...

Is the camper level front to rear when towing? If the tongue is low, it can increase the tongue weight. Conversely, don’t raise the tongue higher than level as that will induce sway.

Move as much gear inside the camper behind the axle, or as far back as possible.

Does the 3023 have the outside accessible storage compartment under the bed? Maybe relocate the batteries back there like the models with the front slideout? Especially with the heavier batteries, that would be close to 150lbs (maybe more) off the tongue...

Before getting too nutty though I would go back to the CAT scale and completely disconnect the comaper from the truck with one axle on one pad and the tongue jack on another pad, and level it out. I can’t wrap my head around 800lbs. If that’s the case my 3326 would be in the 950-1000lb ballpark. And explain the no WDH deal to me? What year is your 4-Runner? I wanna look into that.

[Shane826]

Well I'll be damned... Found this excerpt from a 2007 Toyota 4Runner V6 owner's manual:

"Do not install weight distributing
hitch to weight carrying hitch receiver
because it will be damaged
your vehicle."

Grammar is not mine, that is a direct quote. Apparently the V8 models have the hitch attached to the frame rails instead of the crossmember. Next step, does anyone make an aftermarket hitch receiver that would bolt to the frame rails? Or would one from a V8 model bolt onto your V6 model? Would Toyota actually make these vehicles THAT different?

Maybe an inquiry to etrailer.com would produce a lead?

[Shane826]

Still talking to myself...

Draw-Tite makes a direct mount hitch kit. $160 through Amazon with free shipping. Boom.

https://www.amazon.com/DRAW-TITE-751...ype=automotive

Now you can use a proper weight distribution hitch. But I think you still want to revisit that tongue weight, that still seems really high to me.

[mausmobile]

Thanks for taking the time to reply and think about our situation!

Are you sure? That seems REALLY high! I know TMs have a higher tongue weight because the axle is so far back to prevent sway, but still.

I know, right? I looked at several blogs to learn how to weigh at the CAT scales. You weigh once with each of the three axles on a separate scale pad, then drop the camper and take just your tow vehicle on. From there it's just calculations. I know we did one thing wrong: my husband was standing on the first scale pad instead of sitting in the driver seat (the scale guy was a bit quicker than we anticipated). That might throw off the axle weights a bit, but I can't imagine it skewing the tongue weight that much.

Is the camper level front to rear when towing?

It looks good to us, and a level on the tongue seems to agree. We do have to use a 2 inch rise to achieve this, as the back of the 4Runner drops 2.5-3 inches.

Move as much gear inside the camper behind the axle, or as far back as possible.

We don't have much in the camper to begin with. Bedding, some plastic dishes, a few pots and pans, three camp chairs. Most of the drawers and cabinets are empty. When we weighed, I had the two removable cabinets as far back on the floor as they could go. Nothing on the floor to the right of the door. I can't move the water tank. I feel like there's not much I can do here. I guess I could stuff things a few things into the bathroom, but it doesn't seem like it would make much difference.

Does the 3023 have the outside accessible storage compartment under the bed? Maybe relocate the batteries back there

This is a very interesting idea. We do have an exterior compartment on the back, but it's pretty shallow. Maybe a foot deep? I could probably figure out how to reroute the wiring. But it seems like the TMs that come with factory rear batteries also have a vent back there. Yikes - I'm not keen on cutting a hole in the wall.

Before getting too nutty though I would go back to the CAT scale and completely disconnect the camper from the truck with one axle on one pad and the tongue jack on another pad, and level it out.

Do you think this is more accurate than the calculation method? Our local scale is kind of intimidating - it's a busy truck stop with tractor trailers zipping all over the place. We definitely felt pressure to get on and off the scale as quickly as possible.

Draw-Tite makes a direct mount hitch kit.

Thank you for this idea! I thought changing the hitch out would be an expensive custom job. Didn't realize there was a plug and play solution. However, if I'm really looking at this ridiculous tongue weight, I'll be over my TV's GVWR and axle limits even without any cargo. Shifting the weight around doesn't change that fact, does it?

We will recheck our weights at the next opportunity and see what we can achieve with some tinkering. I'm really disappointed though. One of the big reasons we went with the TM was to keep our tow vehicle. I knew TMs are heavier than dry weights suggest. But everything I read prior to purchase indicated that the 4Runner should work. It seems to tow and handle fine - now I'm almost sorry I took it to the scale, because I can't unsee these numbers.

I'd still love to hear from anyone else towing a 2720 or larger with a 4Runner. What are your trailer and tongue weights? Are you able to carry any water? Are we just an anomaly?

[ThePair]

A 4Runner has a better tow capacity than a Sienna, and I used that for 10 years to tow a 2720 SL. No problems for me, finally traded it in on a different TV, but not because of the towing, because I didn't want a minivan anymore!

Remember, a WDH is a lot of extra weight, 80-100# all told, and much of that's got to be added to the hitch. Yes, it can redistribute more than than off to the TM axle and the TV axle, which is why people use them, but it's still something. My current TV won't take a WDH either, but my allowances are higher (7700/770), so I'm not worried.

I think your hitch weight isn't quite as high as you think. For a TM it's usually 15% of the total. I would for sure try the CAT scales as outlined above, unhitch everything and just have the TM for weighing. That will be most accurate.

Let us know!

[tentcamper]

Where is your water tank?

One options is to counter balance. The axle is the center of the balance. When adding 40 gals of water (about 320 lbs) and two 2 CG batteries about (120 lbs - 40 lbs for other battery). Most of that weight is to the front. If you put your heavy can good and pots and pans in the back storage compartment.

Don't forget you will be adding another 8 gallons of water when you charge your water heater and lines. I assume you will charge the system before camping with no water available. But this weight is more center to the camper, but ahead of the axle. But if your charge the toilet you will just about offset 3 gallons in the water heater because the toilet is about the same distance behind the axle as the water heater is ahead of it.

My Dw. Most of her heavy packing is at or behind the axle, except the fridge stuff. Our front is blankets, pillows and games and other lighter things. This was not by designs. I have my tools and other heavy things in the bumper and storage compartment.

[Bill]

Like Shane, I am having trouble believing the tongue weight is that high. Perhaps I didn't see it, but I don't think you told us what weights were reported by the CAT scale, and how you calculated the tongue weight from them. I'm assuming there were three pads on the scale, and you put the front wheels of your tow vehicle on the foremost one, the rear wheels of your tow vehicle on the middle one, and the TM wheels on the rear one. Whether your husband was standing on the foremost pad or sitting in the vehicle should make little difference - but are you sure he was standing ON the pad, and not BESIDE it?

Let us know.

Bill

[tentcamper]

With 320 lbs (40 g) of water and the 60 lb for an additional battery and DH standing on scale. I could see how the numbers might look like that. Not sure where the water tank is on some models. I know our water tank is about midway between axle and hitch ball.

[Bill]

Maus -

By any chance can you find another scale, to cross-check the CAT scale? CAT scales are supposed to be certified, but I am always a bit suspicious of the accuracy of a scale rated for 100,000 pounds when weighing an 8,000 pound load.

Where to find another scale? In my small town in Maine, the landfill (we used to call it the town dump) has a scale, and since it is not a very busy place, they will let you use it if you show up, identify yourself as a local, and explain what you need. The scale operator is both bored and curious.

The next town over has a scale at the "solid waste transfer station", which we also used to call the dump.

About 20 miles up the road, there is a metal recycling yard. You drive up with a load of scrap metal, they weigh you on the way in, and again on the way out, and pay you for the difference.

A quarry, a Ready-Mix concrete plant, or a grain elevator, will have a scale.

The State Police might be able to tell you where there is a weigh station for over-the-road trucks on the Interstate, and when it will be open.

Most of these scales will have a single pad, but in my experience they are not very busy, so you can drive up, put your front axle on the pad, then pull forward until you have two axles on the pad, then pull forward some more and get all three axles on the pad. As long as there are no trucks behind you waiting for a weigh, you can pause at any point and disconnect the trailer, then weigh again. If a truck shows up while you are weighing, just drive off the scale, go around, and re-enter when he is gone. In my experience these scales are usually free, though I did once get hit up for a $5 donation to the wallet of the guy who runs the dump.

You get the idea. You are just looking for a cross check on the original numbers, and if their weight is accurate to 100 pounds, it will be helpful.

Bill