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Old 05-03-2011, 12:12 AM   #1
coralcrazed
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Default please help! head is spinning. new to towing & the more I read the more unsure i am

I have been reading as many threads as I can here on the forum and I apologize now if I am posting a duplicate thread but feel that safety can not be compramised so I hope that the mods can understand my concern. My head is spinning after reading so many threads on the subject that at this oint I'm not sure what pertains to my situation or not.

ok so we recently purchased a used 2005 2720 TM. wifes 20 year dream finaly is reality. we couldn't be happier but wait... can we safely trail it or is it going to remain parked. Uhaul installed my hitch and break controler and told me I would have no problem. but, you know... anyway, towed the TM on a 7 hour ride and only noticed that the TV was very low to the ground. but got it home safe. So now I want to be sure I'm good to go and not just rely on the good people at u-haul

ok now for the basic info:

TV: 2006 toyota sienna mini van (gwvr = 5690 lbs and GWAR = frt. 2845lbs. and rr. 2845 lbs with towing capacity at 3500 lbs.) tires are michelin 215 65 r16. there will be 4 passengers in the car with some camping gear/clothes ect. (total weight approx. 750 lbs.)

hitch: TM came with a WDH similar to this one http://www.uhaul.com/MovingSupplies/...-Hitch?mid=320 which connects to u-haul class III 2" ball hitch with the following ratings with WDH, since I'm using one, max. gross trailer weight = 5000 and max. tongue weight 500 (lbs)

Trailer: 2005 trailmanor model 2720 with 12 v battery and two propane tanks. I have not gotten the TM weighed yet but intend on getting the gross weight and the tongue weight once it is fully loaded for the trip.

break controler: journey hd #52740 electronic break control

The Toyota minivan has always been low to the ground but when TM is attached its at least 2-3" lower so I was thinking to get this installed for better drivability and safety... i'm thinking something like this model which is one reccomended for the TV http://www.assuredautomotiveproducts...9.qscstrfrnt06

I will also be taking some pictures when the trailer is hitched for further review and suggestion. for now I'm looking to get comments and suggestions if what I'm trying to tow is doable and safe. If not what can I do to improve it? getting another TV is not an option at this time however I am willing to put better breaks and upgrade suspention ect. I'm looking to get all ideas and suggestions for anyone willing to share it here. thanks in advance for all info.
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Old 05-03-2011, 07:02 AM   #2
Mr. Adventure
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coralcrazed View Post
I have been reading as many threads as I can here on the forum and I apologize now if I am posting a duplicate thread but feel that safety can not be compramised so I hope that the mods can understand my concern. My head is spinning after reading so many threads on the subject that at this oint I'm not sure what pertains to my situation or not.

ok so we recently purchased a used 2005 2720 TM. wifes 20 year dream finaly is reality. we couldn't be happier but wait... can we safely trail it or is it going to remain parked. Uhaul installed my hitch and break controler and told me I would have no problem. but, you know... anyway, towed the TM on a 7 hour ride and only noticed that the TV was very low to the ground. but got it home safe. So now I want to be sure I'm good to go and not just rely on the good people at u-haul

ok now for the basic info:

TV: 2006 toyota sienna mini van (gwvr = 5690 lbs and GWAR = frt. 2845lbs. and rr. 2845 lbs with towing capacity at 3500 lbs.) tires are michelin 215 65 r16. there will be 4 passengers in the car with some camping gear/clothes ect. (total weight approx. 750 lbs.)

hitch: TM came with a WDH similar to this one http://www.uhaul.com/MovingSupplies/...-Hitch?mid=320 which connects to u-haul class III 2" ball hitch with the following ratings with WDH, since I'm using one, max. gross trailer weight = 5000 and max. tongue weight 500 (lbs)

Trailer: 2005 trailmanor model 2720 with 12 v battery and two propane tanks. I have not gotten the TM weighed yet but intend on getting the gross weight and the tongue weight once it is fully loaded for the trip.

break controler: journey hd #52740 electronic break control

The Toyota minivan has always been low to the ground but when TM is attached its at least 2-3" lower so I was thinking to get this installed for better drivability and safety... i'm thinking something like this model which is one reccomended for the TV http://www.assuredautomotiveproducts...9.qscstrfrnt06

I will also be taking some pictures when the trailer is hitched for further review and suggestion. for now I'm looking to get comments and suggestions if what I'm trying to tow is doable and safe. If not what can I do to improve it? getting another TV is not an option at this time however I am willing to put better breaks and upgrade suspention ect. I'm looking to get all ideas and suggestions for anyone willing to share it here. thanks in advance for all info.
We have a lot to talk about.

The Sienna has soft springs, with a lot of travel. This is to provide a softer car-like ride. A little stiffer might be good, but it isn't your highest priority. I believe towing a TrailManor with a Sienna is possible, but it is very important to know that it will challenge the rated capacities, and travelling as light as possible and at moderate speeds both need to be an important part of your intentions (according to a table published by the Oregon Highway Department, you need 40% less stopping distance from 55 than 65) (your mileage may vary, and variables are what surprises are made of).

Tow ratings are guidelines, and in setting them manufacturers make broad assumptions that are not always applicable to all cases. In 2006, Toyota should have put the Gross Combined Weight Rating in your owners' manual (GCWR is the total weight of the tow vehicle and the trailer combined), and some illustrations of how to figure your capacities. Read this section carefully. I believe you'll find that your GCWR is 9190#, and with a 4000# trailer, there's just barely room for your Sienna and a light load left over. It's not against the law to bend tow ratings, but operating there requires an abundance of caution. I would search this forum for "Sienna", and send messages to other Sienna owners to learn from their experience and get their advice.

The Toyota towing guide is full of good information and found here:
http://www.toyota.com/pdfs/towguide_Part1.pdf
http://www.toyota.com/pdfs/towguide_Part2.pdf
http://www.toyota.com/pdfs/towguide_Part3.pdf

Weight distribution: Most important will be getting your loads adjusted so that they make the most of your limited capacities which will allow you to use the best carrying capacity of all three of your axles (a scale is the way to get the real story, of course, but first let's be sure you're in the ballpark):

On level pavement, measure the distance at the fenders hitched and unhitched. If the front rises when hitched, your WDH needs to be tightened more so that it doesn't. If you can't do that without 4 links left on the bars, the hitch head needs to be adjusted so that you can. If you don't have the instructions for installing/adjusting your hitch, you can probably download them.

The 2720s have limited axle capacity, and there has been a lot of experience with flat tires posted here for the 14" tires on them. Keep a very close eye on tire pressures.

Brake Controller: Your brake controller progressively applies more braking force the longer you press the brake pedal. This means when you stomp on the brake in an emergency, the trailer brakes are still "ramping" while your trailer that weighs almost as much as your tow vehicle is doing it's best to shove you into whatever object you're braking to avoid. If you adjust it so that it feels right in ordinary driving, it will not have the brakes there for you when you need them most. For this reason, I believe the "progressive" controllers like yours are dangerous and should be illegal. I learned this in a very practical way when a large trailer once pushed me right into an intersection, scaring quite a few other people besides me in the process (fortunately, no bent metal was involved in this trailering lesson). If you were towing a weekend Uhaul full of junk or if you had a very large and heavy tow vehicle, maybe you could get by. But, you will always be towing a 4000# trailer (if you travel light) and you urgently need a better controller. I recommend the Tekonsha Prodigy or P3 as alternatives.

Tow vehicle: You need to be certain that you have the issues covered that Toyota addresses in the factory tow package, if your Sienna does not have the factory tow package installed. A critical item is transmission cooling, but there are other possible elements, too. Again, I would try to learn from the experience of other Sienna owners.

This thread is my own experience on the scale, and the conversations that followed: http://www.trailmanorowners.com/foru...ad.php?t=10652

And, Join the forum. You'll probably find us interesting for awhile yet.
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Old 05-03-2011, 08:04 AM   #3
coralcrazed
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Originally Posted by Mr. Adventure View Post
We have a lot to talk about.

The Sienna has soft springs, with a lot of travel. This is to provide a softer car-like ride. ect
unfortunatly for us we can't afford buying another TV and besides we have already spent in the neighborhood of $1000 on the best hitch and brake controler and wireing. However, I will spend more money upgrading the vehicle as needed to make it as safe as possible. yes I have noticed that it has soft springs... can this be improved? can the springs be upgraded? seems like the air lift 1000 might do the trick here. any advice? Ouch on the brake controler as we spent $400 installing this one. will the BC you suggest be able to plug into the now new wiring of the old BC? this sucks big time but highly appreciate the input.

to add to my already long first post. I don't ever plan to boondock so carriying water will not be the case. I do have two propane tanks that I'd like to carry full (we shall see) and also one 12v battery. I plan on adding a very light amount of weight to the TM. we are looking at limiting this to 150-200 lbs. dumping at CG will be essential before we get back on the road

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Adventure View Post
Weight distribution: Most important will be getting your loads adjusted so that they make the most of your limited capacities so that you are using the best carrying capacity of all three of your axles (a scale is the way you get the real story):
I'm looking for an education in this reguard. when it comes to weeight distribution... whats the goal? obviously I understand that if each axle allows a sertain amount of weight on it we would want to spread out the weight to those axles that allow more. but is the goal to lighten the tounge weight? whats more important toungue weight or Gross weight. thanks


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Adventure View Post
On level pavement, measure the distance at the fenders hitched and unhitched. If the front rises when hitched, your WDH needs to be tightened more so that it doesn't. If you can't do that without 4 links left on the bars, the hitch head needs to be adjusted so that you can. If you don't have the instructions for installing/adjusting your hitch, you can probably download them.
just to be sure I'm measuring from the ground to the lowest part of the wheel well??? and I do this hitched and unhitches both for the front and rear tires? I don't have the WDH instruction manual. I will need to find that info somewhere. how do I find out what brand it is? supposidly the original owner purchased it through TM dealer.


The Sienna has soft springs, with a lot of travel. This is to provide a softer car-like ride. I believe towing a TrailManor with a Sienna is possible, but it is very important to know that it will challenge the rated capacities, and travelling as light as possible at moderate speeds needs to be an important part of your intentions (according to a table published by the Oregon Highway Department, you need 40% less stopping distance from 55 than 65) (your mileage may vary, and variables are what surprises are made of).[/QUOTE]

unfortunatly for us we can't afford buying another TV and besides we have already spent in the neighborhood of $1000 on the best hitch and brake controler and wireing. However, I will spend more money upgrading the vehicle as needed to make it as safe as possible. yes I have noticed that it has soft springs... can this be improved? can the springs be upgraded? seems like the air lift 1000 might do the trick here. any advice? Ouch on the brake controler as we spent $400 installing this one. will the BC you suggest be able to plug into the now new wiring of the old BC? this sucks big time but highly appreciate the input.

to add to my already long first post. I don't ever plan to boondock so carriying water will not be the case. I do have two propane tanks that I'd like to carry full (we shall see) and also one 12v battery. I plan on adding a very light amount of weight to the TM. we are looking at limiting this to 150-200 lbs. dumping at CG will be essential before we get back on the road

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Adventure View Post
Weight distribution: Most important will be getting your loads adjusted so that they make the most of your limited capacities so that you are using the best carrying capacity of all three of your axles (a scale is the way you get the real story, of course, but first let's be sure you're in the ballpark):
I'm looking for an education in this reguard. when it comes to weeight distribution... whats the goal? obviously I understand that if each axle allows a sertain amount of weight on it we would want to spread out the weight to those axles that allow more. but is the goal to lighten the tounge weight? whats more important toungue weight or Gross weight. thanks



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Adventure View Post
The 2720s have limited axle capacity, and there has been a lot of experience with flat tires posted here for them. Keep a very close eye on tire pressures.
I intend on doing so.


The Sienna has soft springs, with a lot of travel. This is to provide a softer car-like ride. I believe towing a TrailManor with a Sienna is possible, but it is very important to know that it will challenge the rated capacities, and travelling as light as possible at moderate speeds needs to be an important part of your intentions (according to a table published by the Oregon Highway Department, you need 40% less stopping distance from 55 than 65) (your mileage may vary, and variables are what surprises are made of).[/QUOTE]

unfortunatly for us we can't afford buying another TV and besides we have already spent in the neighborhood of $1000 on the best hitch and brake controler and wireing. However, I will spend more money upgrading the vehicle as needed to make it as safe as possible. yes I have noticed that it has soft springs... can this be improved? can the springs be upgraded? seems like the air lift 1000 might do the trick here. any advice? Ouch on the brake controler as we spent $400 installing this one. will the BC you suggest be able to plug into the now new wiring of the old BC? this sucks big time but highly appreciate the input.

to add to my already long first post. I don't ever plan to boondock so carriying water will not be the case. I do have two propane tanks that I'd like to carry full (we shall see) and also one 12v battery. I plan on adding a very light amount of weight to the TM. we are looking at limiting this to 150-200 lbs. dumping at CG will be essential before we get back on the road

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Adventure View Post
Weight distribution: Most important will be getting your loads adjusted so that they make the most of your limited capacities so that you are using the best carrying capacity of all three of your axles (a scale is the way you get the real story, of course, but first let's be sure you're in the ballpark):
I'm looking for an education in this reguard. when it comes to weeight distribution... whats the goal? obviously I understand that if each axle allows a sertain amount of weight on it we would want to spread out the weight to those axles that allow more. but is the goal to lighten the tounge weight? whats more important toungue weight or Gross weight. thanks



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Adventure View Post
Brake Controller: Your brake controller progressively applies more braking force the longer you press the brake pedal. This means when you stomp on the brake in an emergency, the trailer brakes are still "ramping" while your trailer that weighs almost as much as your tow vehicle is doing it's best to shove you into whatever object you're braking to avoid. If you adjust it so that it feels right in ordinary driving, it will not have the brakes there for you when you need them most. For this reason, I believe these controllers are dangerous and should be illegal. I learned this in a very practical way when a large trailer once pushed me right into an intersection, scaring quite a few other people besides me in the process (fortunately, no bent metal was involved in this trailering lesson).

If you were towing a weekend Uhaul full of junk or if you had a very large and heavy tow vehicle, maybe you could get by. But, you will always be towing a 4000# trailer (if you travel light) and you urgently need a better controller. I recommend the Tekonsha Prodigy or P3.
ouch if if I need to purchase a new BC and have it installed. however, I will be looking into the reccomended BC to see what my options are at this point.

If you were towing a weekend Uhaul full of junk or if you had a very large and heavy tow vehicle, maybe you could get by. But, you will always be towing a 4000# trailer (if you travel light) and you urgently need a better controller. I recommend the Tekonsha Prodigy or P3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Adventure View Post
Tow vehicle: You need to be certain that you have the aspects Toyota puts in the factory tow package, if your Sienna does not have the factory tow package installed. A critical item is transmission cooling, but there are other possible elements, too. I would search this forum for "Sienna", and send messages to their owners to learn from their experience and get their advice.
My sienna did not come with a factory tow package so I intend on calling them today to see what the exact differance is. however, from what others say here on the forum, siennas built 2007 and earlier don't have any differance in engine parts and the only differance is a hitch and wiring. which in my case I purchased through u-haul.

This thread is my own experience on the scale, and the conversations that followed: http://www.trailmanorowners.com/foru...ad.php?t=10652

And, Join the forum. You'll probably find us interesting for awhile yet.[/QUOTE]
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Old 05-03-2011, 08:14 AM   #4
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I have the exact same TV (2006 Sienna) and a 2720SL.

You can do this, the Sienna tows very nicely...but I'm not tackling mountains, I'm in the flat, flat midwest.

You do NOT need to worry about "tow packages" with this van--the engine already has all the parts you need. Hitch, brake controller, wired bargeman are all that need to be added to the TV. WDH is required, sway is optional, but probably unnecessary.

If you find the sag too much, air lift bags apparently work wonders. I have not needed such, for whatever reason, I've not noticed an issue with sag.

Feel free to ask questions, I'll be happy to share my experiences
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Old 05-03-2011, 10:55 AM   #5
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I have the exact same TV (2006 Sienna) and a 2720SL.

You can do this, the Sienna tows very nicely...but I'm not tackling mountains, I'm in the flat, flat midwest.

You do NOT need to worry about "tow packages" with this van--the engine already has all the parts you need. Hitch, brake controller, wired bargeman are all that need to be added to the TV. WDH is required, sway is optional, but probably unnecessary.

If you find the sag too much, air lift bags apparently work wonders. I have not needed such, for whatever reason, I've not noticed an issue with sag.

Feel free to ask questions, I'll be happy to share my experiences
I have a very important question that I hope you can answer. The 2006 manual pages 399-400 talk about towing capacity which is 3500 lbs. and continue to go into cargo capacity within the toyota (crago capacity is total occupant load and gear). what is unclear in the manual is weather or not the weight inside the TV should be subtracted from the maximum towing capacity of 3500 lbs. the responsible thing to do is try and underload and stay well under the maximum. capacity. I wonder if that is possible here and if you can clarify the above that would be great. Much appreciated.
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Old 05-03-2011, 11:23 AM   #6
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Quote:
when it comes to weeight distribution... whats the goal?


Varying:

Hitch height adjustment
Hitch tilt adjustment
# of links to use

To get: (when hitched with WDH spring bars latched)

1. Front & rear settle on TV close to equal (if not equal, slightly more on rear is ok) ((2 reasons: prevent overloading rear TV axle, prevent under-loading front TV axle which will reduce your braking capacity))

2. A least a minimum 4 chain links between WDH spring bars & chain latch. (more is ok)

3. Level WDH spring bars that do not bind anywhere.

4. A somewhat level TM. (primary consideration is that nothing drags)


Note: to make adjustments, you really do need the instruction manual for your particular WDH. If you cannot download it, maybe you should go back to u-haul and ask them for it.

To check my TV axle loading, i put masking tape (easily removed) on the TV (unhitched) fenders at each wheel at a point that is equal distance from the ground. Hitch up, latch the WDH, remeasure each TV wheel to see the amount of settle i get. If adjusted correctly. the amount of settle (front to rear) should be equal or slightly more on the rear.

A more detailed adjustment guide can be found here:

http://www.trailmanorowners.com/foru...ead.php?t=2616

There is lots to learn, taking it one step at a time sometimes helps to minimize information overload --

Tim
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Old 05-03-2011, 12:34 PM   #7
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I used to have a 2006 Sienna as my TV for my 2720 TM and after a year of this combination I felt too concerned to continue this pairing. I did a number of weighings and my loaded TM was nearly 4000 lbs back then. That weighing included water but even subtracting the water would put me in 3600 pound range. I eventually removed the optional cabinets in an effort to get weight down. I also removed two of the middle row seats to lighten load in Sienna. It has been over a year since I upgraded so my memory is fuzzy on the math but I would bet you are hard pressed to keep the TV under its GVWR with 4 passengers and gear plus all of that tongue weight.

Ratings and bookkeeping aside, braking/cornering on hills just didn't feel right to me. To me, the Sienna really felt pushed around by the load behind it.

Your mileage may vary. Happy camping.
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Old 05-03-2011, 02:18 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by coralcrazed View Post
I have a very important question that I hope you can answer. The 2006 manual pages 399-400 talk about towing capacity which is 3500 lbs. and continue to go into cargo capacity within the toyota (crago capacity is total occupant load and gear). what is unclear in the manual is weather or not the weight inside the TV should be subtracted from the maximum towing capacity of 3500 lbs. the responsible thing to do is try and underload and stay well under the maximum. capacity. I wonder if that is possible here and if you can clarify the above that would be great. Much appreciated.
I posted the numbers someplace just recently...
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjlaupp View Post
You are saying that an actual GCWR exists in print for your vehicle? Could you please provide the missing numbers for the following and where you found each of the numbers?

GCWR 8700
GVWR
GAWR Front
GAWR Rear
Curb wt as delivered 4495
Tow rating 3500

Perhaps if the rest of us could see this data, it make it less magic and more real world.
Thx
Those were in the owners manual aside from the curb weight (see below). These numbers are from the sticker on the doorframe:

Cargo Capacity 1185
GVWR 5690
GAWR 2845 for both front and rear.

The curb wt was from a website, seems slightly off as 5690-1185=4505, minor difference of 20 lbs. All the other numbers are directly from the van or the owners manual.
If you do the math, the cargo capacity does not entirely take away from the tow capacity. 8700-3500 = 5200, and the van as delivered is ~4500, so there's ~700 lbs. of cargo allowed before chewing into the tow capacity.

As to my experience vs. M&M, perhaps we're driving in different conditions? On the flats of the midwest, not at elevation, I've had no issues with the Sienna towing, at all, for 2 full seasons (looking forward to the third). As always, YMMV, and this is the perfect example.

There is no question I am right up at the GCWR on the scales (at least, at the beginning of last summer) and I will be weighing in again this season. I know I'm safe on the GAWR for all three axles, and Toyota stresses that this is the more important consideration than the 3500 lb. tow rating. I need to see how close I am to that number as well, but I'm sure I'm in a close ballpark, as per last year's numbers.

In truth, this topic has been debated to death in the past (weights as absolute limits vs. guidelines) and I have no intention of reopening that can of worms. You need to ultimately do what you're comfortable with as a responsible adult

When I was researching this setup, I found others on the SiennaChat boards, one of whom had traveled extensively with an '06 and a TM 2720SL, and I based my decision on his good experiences, and I've had similar success. Others didn't, probably due to location/geography and other unforeseen factors.
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Old 05-03-2011, 06:12 PM   #9
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I once did a panic stop while towing the TM at 45 mph on a straight expressway.

I am happy to report that it stopped in a straight line and it was my impression that it stopped in the same distance, a bit more or less, that I would have stopped if I was not towing.

My worst case scenario is:

going downhill
around a blind turn
turn is off camber
road has sand/gravel or other loose debris
for some unpredictable reason, I need to make a sudden stop that I had not planned on

Driving slower would certainly help. So would not drinking coffee and not changing the CD or changing radio channels. So would not talking with my wife, but I have no real control over that one.

If you do not have enough towing power, the worst you can do is blow the engine and/or transmission.

If you do not have adequate braking capability and proper weight distribution the worst that can happen is an accident, the severity of which is unpredictable.

I will second the previous suggestion to get a better brake controller. Prodigy is high on the list, but there are others.

My 2005 TM 2720 weighs 3380 on the TM axle when I have it fully loaded. The rest of the stuff is in my truck. I estimate total weight to be 4,100 pounds.

I take a lot of stuff. But I can not image what I would have to remove to drop 600 pounds of weight. The 40 gallons of water is 333 pounds. That is the easy part.

I carry two propane tanks and two batteries. For dry camping those are mandatory, but if you stay in RV parks then you do not need propane (use electric appliances and heater) and you only need one battery (for the TM electric brakes while towing). Buy all food and drinks at your destination. Better yet, eat out so you don't need to have any dishes.

I have a sticker on the inside of my under sink doors. It lists the weight of the TM as shipped by the factory, including all factory installed options. I do not recall what mine is. But my rear hitch receiver, microwave drawer, over sink drawer, and awning are not included in the factory specification of 2,742 pounds.

Until you weigh a loaded TM you are guessing at what it weighs. Next trip out, find a CAT scale and weigh it. That is what I did. Then you will know how much stuff to remove or that you can add.

I have no doubt that it can be done, and safely. But you need to pay more attention to weight than I do.
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Old 05-03-2011, 09:23 PM   #10
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I use the air bag system on the rear of my Tundra, they were installed to be used when I had the ATV (800 lbs) loaded in the bed while towing the TM. They work great, if you want to stabilize your load a bit and level the rear, I highly recommend them. You would still want to use your WDH though...
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