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Old 09-24-2006, 11:13 AM   #1
pbuck1
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Default Tow specs- what's behind them?

...and yet another prospective owner has posted a "will my minivan tow a TM" question. I wrote one myself when I was buying.

We spend so much effort trying keep within the tow specs of our TVs and even building in large margins, but, at least for the minivans and crossover SUVs, where do these specs come from?
- Why is it always a round number (yes, there are exceptions, but they are few)?
- Why is it always the same number (3500lbs/350) no matter what the manufacturer?
- Why has it stayed the same at 3500lbs as the models have gotten more and more powerful engines over the years?
but most of all:
- Why, where the same vehicle is available in Europe, Asia, Australia or NZ ( sometimes with smaller engines) is the tow capacity 4400lbs there ( i.e. 2000kg -still a nice round number) instead of 3500 lbs???
Are they really all reckless idiots over there, while we are not? Is it because we Americans are so big and fat that the typical case has to include an extra 900lbs of margin. Is it something in the air??

Well I don't know, but it's probably due to a qualifying emissions test or a trade regulation or litigation margins or something else not particularly driving/towing related. Does anyone know?
We treat the specs like a magic number, when they're obviously not. However, the specs are all we're given to work with so we keep to them, but I can't help being skeptical.

-Paul
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Old 09-24-2006, 05:11 PM   #2
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Unless it's the fact they don't travel as far in Europe to camp, I don't have any idea why their tow ratings are higher. I will venture a guess on the US 3500lb minvan tow rating however: I have the perception that minivans as a group suffer more transmissin failures than many other types of vehicles even when they are never used for towing.

Someone discribed the problem as a "packaging" issue in that the motor, transmission and other running gear must be small enough to fit between the front wheels and still leave room for the wheels to turn for steering. This neccessitates the use of small, hi-tech transmissions that may not be as durable as those available for rear wheel drive rigs. The fact minivans now weigh about 4500lbs and have ever-increasing HP may add to the existing problem. I'll venture a guess that the transmission in UtahSues HD diesel pickup probably weighs as much as the engine and transmission combined in some minivans.

This is speculation on my part of course but I can offer a couple of facts that support the theory: We kept our Odyssey minivan/2619 combined weight to a few pounds below the Odysseys GCWR and towed for 20,000+ mi
with no problems and our transmission fluid was still pink at 30K. Another Ody owner reported on http://www.odyclub.com that he was towing a mid-size, slab-side trailer without difficulty except that Honda had replaced his transmission twice (no questions asked) under warranty. Since Ody transmissions run about $5K per copy I assume he traded either his TV or trailer before his warranty expired.
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Old 09-24-2006, 05:26 PM   #3
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Default much lower towing limits for lawsuit defense, I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbuck1 View Post
but most of all:
- Why, where the same vehicle is available in Europe, Asia, Australia or NZ ( sometimes with smaller engines) is the tow capacity 4400lbs there ( i.e. 2000kg -still a nice round number) instead of 3500 lbs???
I think that it's because American lawyers have WAY more ability to sue the auto makers for "defects".

Whether that's bad or good is a different question , my feeling is that many vehicles now being sold are too dangerous for an attentive person to buy. I paid extra money to get a safe one. Whether it is a proper role of government to set the bar high, by requiring vehicles to pass more appropriate crash tests, is yet a 3rd question.
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Old 09-25-2006, 12:20 PM   #4
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I tow at least 3500# with gear and probably close to 3800# with water and have seldom wished for "more power" although a few times I have wished for RWD on some slick, grassy, hills.

Minivans had a tow rating of 3500# back when they had 100HP and about the same torque. My current van has 240 HP and 240 foot pounds of torque yet it still has a 3500# rating. Plus it keep manufacturers out of court and drives SUV sales.

Would more be better? Sure but would I get 15-18 MPG still... Probably No.
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Old 09-25-2006, 01:53 PM   #5
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Just a thought...the legally imposed liability protection arguement aside, the engineers surely consider the entire system when setting specs...horsepower and torque increase over the years but wheelbase/chassis parts do not change much..perhaps it is not the horsepower that is the limiting factor?
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Old 09-25-2006, 03:58 PM   #6
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My tV is a 1500 HD. It is bigger than a 1/2 ton and smaller than a 3/4 tone truck.

Not only is the eigine bigger than the 1500. The brakes, frame and axles are also bigger.

It isn't just an engine issue.
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Old 09-25-2006, 05:20 PM   #7
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Debian Dog posted
Quote:
Minivans had a tow rating of 3500# back when they had 100HP and about the same torque. My current van has 240 HP and 240 foot pounds of torque yet it still has a 3500# rating.
Thumbing around Google, I find that in 1990, the Dodge Caravan had a curb weight under 2300 pounds. The new 2006 Dodge Caravan has a base curb weight of 4,252 pounds. All those third-row folding hideaway seats, front and rear air conditioners, nav systems, and cup holders, not to mention the bigger engine, have really nade a moose of it. This might have something to do with it, too.

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Old 09-25-2006, 06:38 PM   #8
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It is definately the chassis and the motor. Check 2003 Ford Vans. This is a full size van. I have a E-150 (1/2 ton) with a 5.4L and it is rated for 6500 lbs. The E-250 (3/4 ton) with the same 5.4L, but that weighs more can tow 7300 lbs. The E-350 (1 ton) with the same 5.4L, but again heavier can only tow 6300 lbs. On mine the limiting factor is the chassis. On the E-350, I would say the limiting factor is the engine. Who know on the E-250.
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Old 02-10-2007, 11:46 AM   #9
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Primary towing capacity peak measurement are highly sensitive to braking capacity. Lawyers are afraid of out of control situations. A burned up transmission is not a major law suit, a failed brake system is.
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