What are people using to tow a 2720 Trailmanor(3100 lb. dry)

[Philip]

Hello Everyone,

First I want to thank everyone for all the help they have given me. I would not have been able to make an intellegent decision without all your input since, as I noted before, I have NO towing experience.

Yes, it is true that there a zillion views on towing, but that is because nothing is black and white. As always, everything is a compromise - something I learned a long time ago. No matter, the more comments you get the more you are able to get a feel as to what you will more likely really need for your particular application and comfort level.

So with all your help, I have purchased a 2005 Toyota 4Runner, V8, Factory tow package, with 43,000 miles on it. I figure it may be a bit of overkill, but will give me the comfort level I need in the Rockies(where most towing will take place). As I said before, I hated to sacrifice the MPG when not towing since I will only have one car, but also realize that I probably will NOT sacrifice too much in MPG while towing - compared to the V6.

Once again, thanks to everyone for all the help and happy travels to all.

I will be on this site from time to time for more education!!

Take care,

Phil

My weighing example above was in a "ready" mode and so was the total weight as I had the sienna packed with the genny, filled ice chest, etc. I can get 300 pounds back just by draining the TM. I will also remove the all of the optional cabinets (and some of their contents) and reweigh it. I will hold off on the more intrusive weight savings until I get another weighing for more data.

I do think that the awning is a waste though. It is so flimsy it is all but unusable for camping at windy California beaches. Plus it seems awkward to get mine open high enough to preclude interference with the top of the door.

Originally Posted by Philip

Yes, it is true that there a zillion views on towing, but that is because nothing is black and white. As always, everything is a compromise - something I learned a long time ago. No matter, the more comments you get the more you are able to get a feel as to what you will more likely really need for your particular application and comfort level.

Great point. It is true that towing capacities are a "hazy line", but that is why I stress that everyone NOT follow them so closely... to leave a safety margin. (ie: if your trailer is 4000 lbs, consider a 5000-6000 lb TV.)
The more info you gather when making a choice, the better choice you will make.

Originally Posted by Philip

So with all your help, I have purchased a 2005 Toyota 4Runner, V8, Factory tow package, with 43,000 miles on it. I figure it may be a bit of overkill, but will give me the comfort level I need in the Rockies(where most towing will take place). As I said before, I hated to sacrifice the MPG when not towing since I will only have one car, but also realize that I probably will NOT sacrifice too much in MPG while towing - compared to the V6.

Great choice Philip!! Congrats on the new purchase.

Originally Posted by M&M Hokie

I finally got to a scale with sienna and TM. I loaded both the sienna and TM in a trip ready configuration. The only thing missing was people. I even charged the toilet and water heater. I also filled the water tank to about 2 inches from the top.
The results? A whopping 3980 for the TM and the combined weight was 8440. I was 500 lbs over spec.

Thank you for posting this Mark. It pretty much confirms what others have said and will hopefully be invaluable information to potential owners.

Basically, it confirms that potential owners of any size TM should consider a TV with a higher TC than 3500 lbs.

I would also urge anyone that is already using a 3500 lb vehicle to do what you have done and to take the time to have their rig weighed to avoid a very serious and dangerous situation.

[Wavery]

Originally Posted by ED-n-KEL

Thank you for posting this Mark. It pretty much confirms what others have said and will hopefully be invaluable information to potential owners.

Basically, it confirms that potential owners of any size TM should consider a TV with a higher TC than 3500 lbs.

I would also urge anyone that is already using a 3500 lb vehicle to do what you have done and to take the time to have their rig weighed to avoid a very serious and dangerous situation.

I agree. Knowledge is power. It's important to know what you are dealing with and respond in the best way that you can. If that means changing your driving habits or being careful about the terrain that you tow in.....that's fine (if that's the best that you can do). If it means upgrading if necessary, that's fine too. It's just important to know what you are dealing with and not delude yourself into thinking that everything is OK when it may not is as OK as you think.

I am glad to finally have the data. I had been meaning to get the info since I bought the TM a few weeks ago. I don't really see a problem working to adapt to the constraint. Learning the trailer life in short hops to nearby campgrounds has been the whole point of the shakedown period. We were always going to get a truck in 4-5 years. Until then, we will go lean and mean.

The silver lining is now I have a good hammer to use against the wife when she wants to run back in the house 5 times to get one more towel or band aid or hat in there and I am ready to pull out of driveway!

[Bill]

When discussing the choice of a 4-Runner V-6 vs V-8, Phillip posted

As I said before, I hated to sacrifice the MPG when not towing since I will only have one car ...

This is a common theme, and it is an emotional issue, and I understand it. But very seldom does anyone put any numbers with it. So let me try some, to illustrate what we are talking about. Just for illustration ...

Suppose you are choosing between the Toyota 4Runner 2WD with a V-6, and the same vehicle with a V-8. For the 2009 models, the first is rated 16/21 mpg, for an average of 18.5 mpg; the second is rated 15/19 mpg for an average of 17 mpg. Is that significant? Well, to continue the example, ...

Suppose that, when towing a TM, they both lose 4 mpg. While towing, the first one gets 14.5 mpg and the second one gets 13 mpg.

Suppose that like most drivers, you drive 12,000 miles a year.

And finally, suppose that 2000 miles of those 12,000 miles are spent towing.

A little arithmetic shows that the first one consumes 541 gallons of gas when it is not towing, plus 138 gallons when it is towing, for a total of 679 gallons per year.

And the same calculation shows that the second one consumes 588 gallons when it is not towing, plus 154 gallons when it is towing, for a total of 742 gallons per year.

The difference is 63 gallons of gas per year.

Is 63 gallons of gas, over the course of a year, really significant? After all, it is less than $200 a year. How big a role should it play in your choice of a tow vehicle? Well, it depends on your budget, of course, but my guess is that if have just spent $20K-$40K on a camper, and you're prepared to spend $40 a night on a campsite, and you really want to go camping, and you want the experience to be pleasurable and safe, then $200 might not be quite as important as your initial instinct, based solely on mpg numbers, would have told you.

This is only one example, of course, but it illustrates the role of mpg numbers when you are choosing a tow vehicle. MPG is important, including the mpg when you are not towing - but a simple calculation should help you decide just how important it really is. Don't let mpg-emotion run away with you, and drive the entire choice. It is only one element of that choice - and perhaps a smaller one than you thought.

Bill

[Wavery]

Originally Posted by Bill

When discussing the choice of a 4-Runner V-6 vs V-8, Phillip postedThis is a common theme, and it is an emotional issue, and I understand it. But very seldom does anyone put any numbers with it. So let me try some, to illustrate what we are talking about. Just for illustration ...

Suppose you are choosing between the Toyota 4Runner 2WD with a V-6, and the same vehicle with a V-8. For the 2009 models, the first is rated 16/21 mpg, for an average of 18.5 mpg; the second is rated 15/19 mpg for an average of 17 mpg. Is that significant? Well, to continue the example, ...

Suppose that, when towing a TM, they both lose 4 mpg. While towing, the first one gets 14.5 mpg and the second one gets 13 mpg.

Suppose that like most drivers, you drive 12,000 miles a year.

And finally, suppose that 2000 miles of those 12,000 miles are spent towing.

A little arithmetic shows that the first one consumes 541 gallons of gas when it is not towing, plus 138 gallons when it is towing, for a total of 679 gallons per year.

And the same calculation shows that the second one consumes 588 gallons when it is not towing, plus 154 gallons when it is towing, for a total of 742 gallons per year.

The difference is 63 gallons of gas per year.

Is 63 gallons of gas, over the course of a year, really significant? After all, it is less than $200 a year. How big a role should it play in your choice of a tow vehicle? Well, it depends on your budget, of course, but my guess is that if have just spent $20K-$40K on a camper, and you're prepared to spend $40 a night on a campsite, and you really want to go camping, and you want the experience to be pleasurable and safe, then $200 might not be quite as important as your initial instinct, based solely on mpg numbers, would have told you.

This is only one example, of course, but it illustrates the role of mpg numbers when you are choosing a tow vehicle. MPG is important, including the mpg when you are not towing - but a simple calculation should help you decide just how important it really is. Don't let mpg-emotion run away with you, and drive the entire choice. It is only one element of that choice - and perhaps a smaller one than you thought.

Bill

Thanks Bill.....that's a good illustration.

One other thing to consider. The V6 stands a far better chance of having mechanical issues than the V8 (while towing). This could easily consume the $ spent on the extra gas.

Common sense tells us that the harder the vehicle has to work to move X pounds over X distance, the more stress the vehicle is under, the more heat that is generated and the higher the risk of a mechanical failure.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Bill

When discussing the choice of a 4-Runner V-6 vs V-8, Phillip postedThis is a common theme, and it is an emotional issue, and I understand it. But very seldom does anyone put any numbers with it. So let me try some, to illustrate what we are talking about. Just for illustration ...

Suppose you are choosing between the Toyota 4Runner 2WD with a V-6, and the same vehicle with a V-8. For the 2009 models, the first is rated 16/21 mpg, for an average of 18.5 mpg; the second is rated 15/19 mpg for an average of 17 mpg. Is that significant? Well, to continue the example, ...

Suppose that, when towing a TM, they both lose 4 mpg. While towing, the first one gets 14.5 mpg and the second one gets 13 mpg.

Suppose that like most drivers, you drive 12,000 miles a year.

And finally, suppose that 2000 miles of those 12,000 miles are spent towing.

A little arithmetic shows that the first one consumes 541 gallons of gas when it is not towing, plus 138 gallons when it is towing, for a total of 679 gallons per year.

And the same calculation shows that the second one consumes 588 gallons when it is not towing, plus 154 gallons when it is towing, for a total of 742 gallons per year.

The difference is 63 gallons of gas per year.

Is 63 gallons of gas, over the course of a year, really significant? After all, it is less than $200 a year. How big a role should it play in your choice of a tow vehicle? Well, it depends on your budget, of course, but my guess is that if have just spent $20K-$40K on a camper, and you're prepared to spend $40 a night on a campsite, and you really want to go camping, and you want the experience to be pleasurable and safe, then $200 might not be quite as important as your initial instinct, based solely on mpg numbers, would have told you.

This is only one example, of course, but it illustrates the role of mpg numbers when you are choosing a tow vehicle. MPG is important, including the mpg when you are not towing - but a simple calculation should help you decide just how important it really is. Don't let mpg-emotion run away with you, and drive the entire choice. It is only one element of that choice - and perhaps a smaller one than you thought.

Bill

Bill,

I had made these types of calculations for various TV's I was considering but had not done it for the vehicle I purchased. From my previous calculations, my intuition told me the difference between the V6 & V8 for the 4Runner was not going to be near enought to offset the benefits of a V8 for my use and comfort. I was going to do this calculation even after I purchased the 4Runner - just for fun!

So - thank you for doing the calculation for me. By the way, this calculation demonstrates how you can use facts to help guide your decisions in a gray area. I always try to rely on as much factual information as I can possibly get to make a final decision - even in a gray area. Most all the time there is enough factual information available, if you think things out and search for facts, to make a good judgement in a gray area. The less facts you can get your hands on and the less first hand experience you have relating to the problem the more conservative you have to be in your final decision.

Thank you again Bill.

Take care,

Phil

I can add a somewhat, perhaps, interesting twist.

With my monster 2500HD crew cab long bed (8 foot) crew cab truck, fully load with motorcycles etc, I get 11.5 mpg. And that is towing accros the width of California, up and over the Pacific range and then up into the Sierras to about 6,000 feet.

If a Toyota can get 13 mpg with the V8 towing, then I feel really good getting 11.5. I carry a *LOT* of stuff with me. Anyone carrying more than me probably has a rock collection.

For me, the truck is not a daily driver, and the lousy 13.5 mpg I get when running empty does not bother me. In one year I put 3,400 miles on the truck, 3/4 of it towing.

My motorcycle gets about 80 mpg. I only ride in in nice weather, meaning April through the end of October. So my overall gas consumption really is not as bad as some might think it is.

I have a lot of money tied up in the capital costs to acquire the toys, but the annual cost of operation is not hard on the cash flow.

It would be interesting to hear what the best mileage is that anyone can measure when towing a loaded (ready to camp) TM. Let's assume a vehicle capable of towing mountains, say from San Francisco to Denver while maintaining a minimum speed of at least 35 mph at all times.