|
|
09-21-2022, 10:02 PM
|
#11
|
Site Sponsor
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Sunny Beaches of Los Angeles
Posts: 3,278
|
Shane -- Have you ever tried not using antifreeze? I've not had a TM in a freezing climate where it just sits (not camping), but it's always been my understanding that antifreeze is not required in a TM.
One of my TMs will be in the northeast going forward, so I will soon find out!
Dave
__________________
2000 2720SL & 2007 3124KB
2005 Toyota Sequoia
Twin Battle Born 12v 100Ah LiFePO4 (BBGC2) batteries, 300W solar on rear shell, Link 10, Lift kit, Maxxis 8008 225 75/R15 E tires
|
|
|
09-22-2022, 06:47 AM
|
#12
|
TrailManor Master
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 1,900
|
I’ve always poured antifreeze down the drains. I didn’t start pushing antifreeze through the plumbing until I installed the SeaLand toilet and the flush valve froze and cracked the first winter. After that, antifreeze is required. I bet now that the SeaLand is standard equipment you’ll see the winterizing procedure changes from the factory.
__________________
2007/21 TM 3326 (Pride of the Fleet)
2000 2720SL (Rebuild Project)
2002 2619 (Parts TM)
SMARTER THAN GOOGLE!
|
|
|
09-22-2022, 07:15 AM
|
#13
|
Site Team
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The mountains of Scottsdale, AZ, and the beaches of Maine
Posts: 10,207
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShrimpBurrito
Shane -- Have you ever tried not using antifreeze? I've not had a TM in a freezing climate where it just sits (not camping), but it's always been my understanding that antifreeze is not required in a TM.
Dave
|
There are many very good posts / threads about winterizing, and a Search on that term will pull them up. My understanding has always been the same as yours, EXCEPT that some minor (easy) steps are needed. As I recall them ---
Take off the inside shower head, shake it dry and set it aside. Drain the hose. Leave the valves ON.
Take off the outside shower head, shake it dry, and set it aside. Drain the hose. Leave the valves ON.
Run the pump for a few seconds to get most of the water out of the pump head.
Leave all faucets ON for the winter, including the faucets for the showers, sinks, and under-body drains. If any water collects, this will give it a place to go.
Being a belt and suspenders guy, I always used to put some non-toxic antifreeze down all the drains, as you do, even though the plastic plumbing is supposed to be able to handle freezing without breaking.
By the way, for those who want to run antifreeze through the system, it is often said that you need a water heater bypass in place, or you will need to fill the water heater with lots of expensive antifreeze. I think this is incorrect on several counts. Anti-freeze is only $4 a gallon at Walmart, and the TM water heater is only 6 gallons. Compared to the annoyance and cost of putting in a bypass, and then working around it when you need access to something else under there, I would consider this cheap.
My 2020 2720QS came with a factory-installed water heater bypass. It makes everything under the counter cramped, and a PITA to work on. I don't think the factory is doing this any more, though I would like to know if I am wrong about this.
Just my experience ...
Bill
|
|
|
09-22-2022, 10:19 AM
|
#14
|
Site Sponsor
Join Date: May 2022
Location: Logan Lake, BC, Can
Posts: 226
|
I've previously installed by-passes for the pump and water heater. Neither of my rigs had low-point drains, so your only options were blow the water out with compressed air and run the pump till it's dry (which it never really is) and hope you got it all, or pump pink through the system, bypassing the fresh and hot water tanks, or do both.
I know a couple of folks who just blew the water out and then ran the pump dry, and still ended up with a cracked pump head, and I know that most of you probably follow exactly what Bill said - with his additional steps - and have never had a problem.
But I would rather install the by-pass valve to the pump and not take that chance. Case in point, when I cut the line between the tank and the pump to install the valve, about a 1/4 cup of water came down from the pump end. Now that may have just been in the line, and not coming back down from the pump, but just the fact that water came out from a spot that I was hoping was water-less is making me feel much better about installing that valve. It was cheaper ($35) and easier to install the by-pass than it would be to replace a cracked pump, so I just call it insurance.
Like Shane, I also have a standard Thetford flush toilet, and I do need to know I have pink in the flush valve so it doesn't crack over winter.
I won't worry about the water heater. The small amount of water in there won't cause any problems, and I don't need to fill it with 6 gallons of pink! If I get industrious, I might put a valve in there, but my main worry was the pump and the toilet.
__________________
2008 2720SL “The Kobayashi Maru”
2006 Toyota 4Runner, SR5, 4L V6
|
|
|
09-22-2022, 12:07 PM
|
#15
|
TrailManor Master
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 1,900
|
Bill said “ By the way, for those who want to run antifreeze through the system, it is often said that you need a water heater bypass in place, or you will need to fill the water heater with lots of expensive antifreeze. I think this is incorrect on several counts. Anti-freeze is only $4 a gallon at Walmart, and the TM water heater is only 6 gallons. Compared to the annoyance and cost of putting in a bypass, and then working around it when you need access to something else under there, I would consider this cheap.”
Well, let’s do some math. 6 gallons of antifreeze to fill the water heater plus another gallon to push through the plumbing is 7 gallons. At $4/gallon, that’s $28 worth of antifreeze EVERY YEAR. Camco makes a real nice bypass kit for $24. Add the 1 gallon of antifreeze to push through the lines, and your first year cost is that same $28 plus maybe an hour of time to install the bypass. After that, your winterizing cost is $4 for one gallon of antifreeze.
Camco 35953 8" Supreme Permanent By-Pass Kit for 6 Gallon Tank - https://a.co/d/4hEWG3K
Bill said “ My 2020 2720QS came with a factory-installed water heater bypass. It makes everything under the counter cramped, and a PITA to work on.”
Did they use a kit similar to the Camco one linked above or is it a bunch of PEX tees and valves running every which way under the sink? The Camco kit is pretty neat and clean but I have seen some of the homemade bypasses installed on other brand campers. They aren’t pretty.
Bill said “ I don't think the factory is doing this any more, though I would like to know if I am wrong about this.”
You were correct up until a few months ago. They do install a bypass again.
__________________
2007/21 TM 3326 (Pride of the Fleet)
2000 2720SL (Rebuild Project)
2002 2619 (Parts TM)
SMARTER THAN GOOGLE!
|
|
|
09-22-2022, 01:47 PM
|
#16
|
Site Team
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The mountains of Scottsdale, AZ, and the beaches of Maine
Posts: 10,207
|
Shane said "I didn’t start pushing antifreeze through the plumbing until I installed the SeaLand toilet and the flush valve froze and cracked the first winter." In other words, you need to be able to push a bit of cold water through the cold water line to the toilet, without filling the water heater. And you need to do this only if you change the toilet. To do this, and avoid the whole bypass thing, would it not be possible to put a simple shutoff valve in the existing cold water feed to the water heater, thus avoiding the whole "how many gallons of antifreeze to fill it"?
Hey, I'm not telling anyone what to do, just putting out some possibilities. If you are a fan of bypasses, go for it. And if the factory started installing bypasses again, it is entirely possible that they did so because they re-routed the pipes, and now the system won't reliably gravity-drain. Or more likely, because someone came to them with the whole "need a bypass to save gallons of anti freeze" thing. Paul Wipf told me in person that this was the reason they started putting in a bypass in the first place.
Bill
|
|
|
09-22-2022, 01:53 PM
|
#17
|
Site Sponsor
Join Date: May 2022
Location: Logan Lake, BC, Can
Posts: 226
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill
would it not be possible to put a simple shutoff valve in the existing cold water feed to the water heater, thus avoiding the whole "how many gallons of antifreeze to fill it"?
Bill
|
That's basically my plan Bill. Just cut the pex going to the heater and insert a 1/4 turn ball valve. Like I said, I'm not particularly concerned about the pex lines themselves freezing. It's just the pump and the toilet for me.
So I'm off to pick up 4 ball valves - one for the cold line to the water heater and 4 to replace the drain valves that are either broken (2) or getting really tired and probably ready to break next time I turn the handles!
__________________
2008 2720SL “The Kobayashi Maru”
2006 Toyota 4Runner, SR5, 4L V6
|
|
|
09-22-2022, 05:38 PM
|
#18
|
Site Sponsor
Join Date: May 2022
Location: Logan Lake, BC, Can
Posts: 226
|
The bypass valve location for pump. And the planned spot for the one in the cold line to the water heater. Just a single 1/4 turn valve. Nothing fancy. Next week. I have 3 days of siding to finish up first!
__________________
2008 2720SL “The Kobayashi Maru”
2006 Toyota 4Runner, SR5, 4L V6
|
|
|
09-22-2022, 08:45 PM
|
#19
|
TrailManor Master
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 1,900
|
Bill said “ In other words, you need to be able to push a bit of cold water through the cold water line to the toilet, without filling the water heater. And you need to do this only if you change the toilet. To do this, and avoid the whole bypass thing, would it not be possible to put a simple shutoff valve in the existing cold water feed to the water heater, thus avoiding the whole "how many gallons of antifreeze to fill it"?”
Valid point. But if you’re going that far, why not install the second valve with a hose in between the two and push the pink through the hot side as well?
__________________
2007/21 TM 3326 (Pride of the Fleet)
2000 2720SL (Rebuild Project)
2002 2619 (Parts TM)
SMARTER THAN GOOGLE!
|
|
|
|
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
|
|
Thread Tools |
|
Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
» Recent Threads |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|