2619 or 2720?

[ng2951]

Hello,

My wife and I have been out and actually operated a few TM 2619s, and 2720SLs. We have the 2.4L Toyota Tacoma (manual transmission) which is suppose to be OK up to the 3023.

Our plan is to use the TM for CAS (Cowboy Action Shooting) at the various ranges around the US. We will be traveling with two pets, including one subbornly unhousebroken dachshund!

After trying out the various TMs we feel we that the double beds are adequate in the 2619...that is if the dachshund does not demand her third of the bed. The 2720 (not the SL or SD) is a better fit for us since it does have one queen bed.

So the wife, or pardette as they are called in CAS, and I have a few questions:

1. How well do the TMs hold up?

2. It appears that TMs lose about well over 50% of their retail value in 10 years. Is that typical for TMs? Typical for trailers in general? Or is there some other reason for this?

3. Though TM says you can haul up to a 3023, that really looks like it would be pushing it. Why is TM generous with their rating?

4. One of my concerns with the TM over say a Hi-Lo is the two piece roof. Have you ever had to replace the roof gasket and how difficult and expensive is it?

5. Is it better to store your TM in the open or closed position? Where I live, I can do either. It at least makes sense to me, that the open position keeps tension off the spring lift mechanism which might increase their life span.

6. Is the lifetime warranty on the lift mechanism transferable? If you buy one used, does the warranty move with the unit?

7. The 2619 just meets our needs, the 2720 easily meets the needs. We actually like the 2619's floorplan over the 2720SL/SD better (why we like the 2720 better). Is there anything you like about the different units, especially in the used markets?

8. Finally, one of the big reasons we are thinking about the TM and Hi-Lo is the fuel economy aspect. It is certainly at least logical to buy into the claim that aerodynamic efficiency would reduce fuel consumption. Has anyone actually have published results of such a test and just how much to expect?

Thanks for your time
Nathan Gifford

[PopBeavers]

We got the 2720 instead of the 2619 because of the queen bed. If my blind brother-in-law goes with us then he sleeps on the front bed and one or the other of his sons (21 or 24) sleeps on the dinette.

When our son(24) is with us, without his significant other, then he sleeps on the front bed.

Usually, these days, son and daughter(27) prefer to sleep in their own backpacking tents. Allegedly I snore.

If I was not ever to expect guests to travel with us, I would have gotten the 2720 with the front living space, especially if you are in areas that rain a lot as it is a comfortable place to get out of the rain. Since I live in California, rain is not a major issue during camping season.

I store my TM closed, because I keeping in the garage out of the weather. I do not have any room to store it outside in San Jose.

I can tell you from having weighed it that my TM, when loaded with all the stuff I own to go camping for a week, and full of 40+gallons of water, it weighs 3380 pounds on the axle. I did not weigh the tongue.

Regarding the roof seals, my TM is 3 years old. I do not have a problem. There are actually two seals, about a foot apart. I would not be concerned about water getting into the TM from a rain storm through there at all.

Regarding fuel economy, when towing the TM, my mileage drops from 13.5 to 9-11, depending on the terrain. So I figure the penalty is about 3 mpg for towing. My truck (1500HD) is bigger than yours, so your results will no doubt be different.

Another advantage of the 2720 over the 2619 is the additional storage in the rear. The outside is where I keep the BBQ , water hoses and tools. Inside is where we keep games, electric heater, towels and my medicine cabinet.

[grakin]

"1. How well do the TMs hold up?"

I think they do well. I have about 10,000 miles on mine. Some screws fell out, and some of the moving parts scraped each other a bit, but nothing serious to me.

"2. It appears that TMs lose about well over 50% of their retail value in 10 years. Is that typical for TMs? Typical for trailers in general? Or is there some other reason for this?"

I can't answer this well, but I'd be *thrilled* if in 10 years it only lost 1/2 of its' value. I think TMs hold their value more than most, but trailers do depreciate steeply. You can avoid some of this by buying used.

"3. Though TM says you can haul up to a 3023, that really looks like it would be pushing it. Why is TM generous with their rating?"

They want to sell trailers! I would be concerned towing anything with a 2.4L engine, but I might just be way too conservative. I'll let others with similar vehicles chime in. Make sure your hitch can handle the tongue weight, and I imagine you would need a weight distributing hitch - make sure you can put one on your vehicle.

"4. One of my concerns with the TM over say a Hi-Lo is the two piece roof. Have you ever had to replace the roof gasket and how difficult and expensive is it?"

Not a problem. You could remove the roof gaskets (as someone else mentioned there are two) and probably not have a leak problem still. TMs leak in the same places everyone elses' trailers leak - at the airconditioner, awnings, vents, etc. I doubt TMs are more leak prone than anyone else's trailers. Mine has never leaked (about 1 year of ownership).

"5. Is it better to store your TM in the open or closed position? Where I live, I can do either. It at least makes sense to me, that the open position keeps tension off the spring lift mechanism which might increase their life span."

Closed up I think would be less likely to get damaged, less likely to have thiefs try to break in, etc. Also, it's designed to be towed while down, so I imagine that's where it can take the most stresses.

"6. Is the lifetime warranty on the lift mechanism transferable? If you buy one used, does the warranty move with the unit?"

No idea but I don't think you'll have a problem with the lift mechanism.

"7. The 2619 just meets our needs, the 2720 easily meets the needs. We actually like the 2619's floorplan over the 2720SL/SD better (why we like the 2720 better). Is there anything you like about the different units, especially in the used markets?"

Don't buy "barely meets" when it comes to our needs. You probably won't be happy and will end up losing a lot of money upgrading. I'd look for the 2720 based on what you've said.

"8. Finally, one of the big reasons we are thinking about the TM and Hi-Lo is the fuel economy aspect. It is certainly at least logical to buy into the claim that aerodynamic efficiency would reduce fuel consumption. Has anyone actually have published results of such a test and just how much to expect?"

I gain more from slowing down than I lose towing the TM - mileage wise, kt's almost like it isn't there. But I am towinig with a larger vehicle. I would expect to lose some mileage towing, and I would carefully compute how much the mileage savings is when comparing to other brands - you pay a premium for either TMs or Hilos, and that premium would buy a *LOT* of gas.

What I like about the TM is the ease of towing - low CG, low wind drag, etc. I also like that it is fairly large when set up, and has a very open floor plan. It is easy to store and fits in almost all camping spots. But make sure you are buying what you really want - it fits my camping style but may not fit yours.

One thing I would suggest is seriously looking at your vehicle's capabilities, especially if you plan on towing in the mountains. If you end up not being happy with it, and buying a new vehicle because you weren't happy, you might want to consider that now as you look at trailers. If you will have to get a new vehicle no matter what (I'm not sure if you would or not), then you might want to chose a heavier or larger trailer if it better suits your lifestyle.

[camp2canoe]

Just my two cents worth. I bought a new 2619 in 2005 and was limited to either the 2619 or the 27 series by garage length - my TV is overkill. I bought the 2619 as the 2720SL would have required modification of our indoor/outdoor kennel in the garage. I have regretted that decision ever since and wish we had the larger bed, additional storage and mainly the living area of the larger unit. We generally camp with just the 2 of us and our labrador retriever so extra beds has only been an issue when we drag out the TM to use as guest quarters when hosting large family gatherings. My research indicates that TMs actually depreciate a little slower than other TTs due to initial quality. It makes sense to me that a TM is best stored in the folded position but, having said that, what a luxury it would be if the garage was tall enough to store extended. I share the reservations of other forum contributors with reference to just getting by on TV capacity - with my full size F150 I often forget that I'm towing the TM and don't use an equalizing hitch. In three years of fairly hard use and some nasty secondary roads, I'm pretty content with TM construction and have experienced no leaks. Sure do wish we would have modified that kennel and bought the 2720 though! - camp2canoe

[TraceyMac]

For comparison purposes, I tow a 2720 with a Honda Ridgeline. On my one and only (so far) trip, I got about 16 mpg while towing the TM. I towed mostly at 60 mph. To put it in perspective, without towing I usually get about 16 mpg in city driving and 21 mpg on the highway - note that my highway driving is usually about 70 mph. So, at least for me a good rule of thumb is that I will get my usual city mpgs while towing on the highway ( I am sure my relatively slow tow speed kept the towing mpg as high as they were).

[grill-n-go]

1) Our TM has 18,000+ miles on it (09/2003). So far 1 blowout, 1 broken latch (<$10.00 to replace). Other than that, everything else has been self induced punishment. For instance dead battery after a year or so because I was clueless about battery care. The appliances are the same as you will find in any other RV, Coleman A/C, Norcold fridge, etc.

2) As previously stated <=50% value after 10 years is pretty darn good. The value of TM is in the walls (they won't wrot away), lift mechanism (guaranteed for life), what else is there? Really, it's a well build solid product. Maybe an Airstream or Bigfoot might hold it's value better, although I doubt it. I believe trailers suffer the most damage when they are moving and not when they are parked. I've noticed that the bottom half of my trailer rarely needs washing. Only half of it is exposed when it's on the move.

3) Your truck is rated for 3500 Lbs towing and the trailers you are considering are all less than 3000 Lbs. Why the issue of tongue weight gets so little attention is beyond me. Your real concern is going to be tongue/hitch weight. I suspect your truck is rated for 350 Lbs tongue weight. A 2619/2720 are right there, dry. Add "water" and you are over your truck's tongue capacity. All the other models you might consider are closer to 400 Lbs dry, well beyond what you can safely tow. Hilos are normally heavier and you get less living space from comparable towing length. Regardless of which way you go (TM/HiLo),and even if you live in a flat place like Florida and never plan to leave the state, the hitch weight is something that is always going to be an issue for you. As a former Tacoma owner I know how you feel (I loved my 4 cyl.Taco).

4) As previously stated. Water is NOT an issue. Only time I ever got wet while camping is when I rolled my kayak or too dumb to get out of the rain.

5/6)The lifting mechanism is guaranteed for life. I don't think open/closed storage makes a difference. Might be a good question to chat with Ed Lytle about. I'm betting that guarantee is transfereable, othewise the used TM market would look like a minefield.

7) 2619/2720? Buy all the house you can get.

8) On the MPG thing, since wind/weather conditions, terrain and TVs vary infinitely, it's just about impossible to peg a percentage to the benefit of a TM/Hilo. What I do know is that when I was a kid coasting my bicycle down a big hill, I never got any bugs in my eyes as long as I kept my head down.

[Leslie & Nick]

Based on a few years experience, if you have a choice, I'd go with the 2720 vs. the 2619. It's only another foot which doesn't sound like much, but you'll appreciate the extra room, and the larger bed especially! We have a 2619 that has served us well, but often wish for something a little larger. We travel with two dogs also, and it gets a bit tight sometimes. Plus the 2720 will probably also fit in your garage, if that's important to you.

[Bill]

OK, one more time. I am REALLY down on 3500-pound tow vehicles. Rather than go through it all, just refer to to the Saturn Vu discussion at

http://www.trailmanorowners.com/forum/showthread.php?p=42323

Not everyone agrees with me, by the way, and WHERE you tow makes a little bit of a difference. But to me it is also, and primarily, a safety issue.

Bill

[ng2951]

Thanks to everyone who has commented so far. I am reading and digesting the info.

We may upgrade to a better Tacoma, though that depends on a few things.

So far the answers I am getting seem to be pretty good, but I have a few more:

1. What is the 3KW inverter for? Does it power everything including the AC? If so why not use a 12V generator to power the inverter?

2. When did TM start installing inverters?

3. What has been the evolution cycles of the TM? Are there things not installed on older TMs that is only on the newer units?

Thanks,
Nathan Gifford

[Bill]

Wow! I have heard nothing about an inverter, and I can't find any reference to it on the TM web site. A 3000-watt inverter would draw a minimum of 3000w / 12v = 250 amps out of a 12-volt battery, which is on the edge of impossible. Where did you hear about this?

As for "evolution cycles", I have only about 7 years experience with TM, so take this with that in mind. My impression is that before about 1999 or 2000, each TM was pretty much hand-built. Design changes happened, but were sporadic. There was a big surge of design changes in the 2002-2004 time frame, and then things settled down for a bit. Another surge occurred in the 2007-2008 time frame, as they geared up for the 25th anniversary.

Again, this is just my impression. Others may disagree, with no more evidence than I have presented (that is, none!) But the basic concepts - light weight, foam sandwich construction, fold-down shells, torsion bars, reasonably standard amenities and appliances - have been constant since the beginning.

Bill

[Mr. Adventure]

1. How well do the TMs hold up?

Better than any other trailer in the in the business. The floor plans don't change much, the aluminum roofs don't deteriorate like those plastic and rubber ones, and the aluminum frames don't rot.

2. It appears that TMs lose about well over 50% of their retail value in 10 years. Is that typical for TMs? Typical for trailers in general? Or is there some other reason for this?

Most RV's lose about 15-20% %/year, and I'd say that TM's lose about 10-15%/year based on the for-sale ads. You can easily figure this out yourself by looking at the ads, too. Buy a good 2004-2006 model and save more than half before you start.

3. Though TM says you can haul up to a 3023, that really looks like it would be pushing it. Why is TM generous with their rating?

TM offers their opinions based on owner feedback, per their web site. The 3023 is only 50 pounds heavier that the 2720SL. The tongue weight depends on how the trailer is loaded. You definitely need a weight distributing hitch that's rated for MORE than your expected hitch weight and a vehicle that's properly built for one if you're even thinking about cutting it close.

If you're staying in campgrounds, there's no need for the 40 gal (200 pounds) of water Pop Beavers loads on, and perhaps similar cut backs on some of that other stuff he carries around would help in controlling the size of your tow vehicle too. You also need to consider the altitude you live and camp at, because you lose 3.5% of power per thousand feet above sea level. This is a big problem for Westerners, but not nearly such a big deal for the rest of us who only visit there occasionally.

The Trailmanor web site shows the Toyota Highlander as only rated for 3000#with your engine, although it says it's ok for 3500 on the Tacoma with the heavy duty tow package. I suspect you're going to want to keep your trailer on the lighter side.

4. One of my concerns with the TM over say a Hi-Lo is the two piece roof. Have you ever had to replace the roof gasket and how difficult and expensive is it?

The gaskets don't seem to be a reliability issue, based on things posted on this site. One of my concerns about the HiLo is it's weight.

5. Is it better to store your TM in the open or closed position? Where I live, I can do either. It at least makes sense to me, that the open position keeps tension off the spring lift mechanism which might increase their life span.

I'd bet that there isn't a lot of experience on TM's stored open and that they handle everything better when stored closed (rain, snow, theft, windstorm, etc.).

6. Is the lifetime warranty on the lift mechanism transferable? If you buy one used, does the warranty move with the unit?

The warranty moves with the unit. The TM website is pretty proud of this and says they've never had one not open like it's supposed to.

7. The 2619 just meets our needs, the 2720 easily meets the needs. We actually like the 2619's floorplan over the 2720SL/SD better (why we like the 2720 better). Is there anything you like about the different units, especially in the used markets?

The great thing about TM's is that they are still great after a few years.

8. Finally, one of the big reasons we are thinking about the TM and Hi-Lo is the fuel economy aspect. It is certainly at least logical to buy into the claim that aerodynamic efficiency would reduce fuel consumption. Has anyone actually have published results of such a test and just how much to expect?

Do a search on this site on the word "mileage". And most important: It's not how fast you can go in an RV that counts, it's how fast you can stop. A 10mph reduction in speed offers big dividends on both counts.

[grakin]

On the evolution of the TM, the only huge change made lately (last 15 years or so) if I read others posts correctly is going from a frame with some wood in it to a frame that is all aluminum. That might be a big deal in the used market.

Other than that, it's mostly in the "frills" that the improvements are made - better velcro, better converters, new options (solar, electric lift jacks, etc), different stabilizing jacks, etc. It's mostly small stuff that makes life nice (it's nice having a place to hang the showerhead - but is that one improvement enough to pay thousands more? Probably not). They are almost all "minor" changes that are nice to have but usually not essential. Of course you might find one or another of them essential, in which case that would make your decision. But I would be surprised if next year's TM was completely different than this years.

[Leslie & Nick]

Thanks to everyone who has commented so far. I am reading and digesting the info.
3. What has been the evolution cycles of the TM? Are there things not installed on older TMs that is only on the newer units?

Thanks,
Nathan Gifford

I think there have been a few changes over the years. One that comes to mind is placement of the air conditioner. Older TMs had the ACs mounted on the side in one of the cabinets. Factory started using roof mounted ACs somewhere in 2002-2003 or thereabouts. Personally, I'm don't care for our side mounted unit (poor air flow, wasted cabinet space), but others say they work fine and are easier and less costly to replace than a roof mounted unit.

They started using microwaves instead of the gas oven a few years ago (maybe as an option?) I myself, like the idea of the gas oven better. You can always buy a cheap microwave for the TM.

There have probably been other innovations over the years, but by and large the TM is still pretty much the same design idea. I still call it an 'engineering marvel' :)

[mtnguy]

They started using microwaves instead of the gas oven a few years ago (maybe as an option?) I myself, like the idea of the gas oven better. You can always buy a cheap microwave for the TM.



Lesilie & Nick, I think the gas oven is still offered as standard equipment. The microwave is a $144 option in place of the oven. I am like y'all when thinkn' that the gas oven is the best (& cheapest) way to go. You can always use the oven, but you can't use the microwave when boondocking. You can easily add a store bought microwave later, but it would be difficult to hook-up a gas oven later.

Chap

[PopBeavers]

I bought a cheap microwave for 50 bucks at Walmart. It has been used once in two years.

We use the oven every trip, biscuits for breakfast and chocolate chip cookies after dinner. Neither does well in a microwave.

The shore power cord has been moved so it can be accessed when the top is closed. Not too big o a deal, but a little bigger than the shower head attachment.

[ng2951]

Yes, I do agree with posters that I would prefer an over over a microwave. Microwaves heat, they do not cook real well. I am the chef and the wife prefers it stays that way.

Too bad the oven does not have a self-cleaning option...

[mtnguy]

Too bad the oven does not have a self-cleaning option...

My missus says our oven does have that option.....me !!!!:)

Chap

[ng2951]

I am sure mine will too. She says you messed it up, you clean it up...the Henny Penny arguments do not apply. For the home unit I always get the self-cleaning option...

[larsdennert]

We have a 2720 with the rear Queen and front Full. Having the extra outside storage for the BBQ and firewood etc and inside space is really nice. The queen is useful as the kids sometimes end up in our bed at night.

I don't think there's any noticeable towing difference between the 2619 and 2720. I think it'd be tiring towing with a 4cyl Taco though unless you live in flat country.
http://67.122.16.97/lars/albums/album15/IMG_5217_Small.jpg
Last weekend we drove quite a few miles of dirt road with the TM. I couldn't find the hookups when we got to camp. :rolleyes:

[Bill & Lisa]

We have a 2720 with the rear Queen and front Full. Having the extra outside storage for the BBQ and firewood etc and inside space is really nice. The queen is useful as the kids sometimes end up in our bed at night.

I don't think there's any noticeable towing difference between the 2619 and 2720. I think it'd be tiring towing with a 4cyl Taco though unless you live in flat country.

Last weekend we drove quite a few miles of dirt road with the TM. I couldn't find the hookups when we got to camp. :rolleyes:


Looks like you guys were living in style compared to the others in your group! Gotta love it.

[Bill & Lisa]

Changes over the year....

*Roof mounted AC moved to front shell vice rear shell.
swing hitch offered
power tongue jack
flat screen tv
radio standard
new hanging cabinet over stove
smaller cabinet over sink
placement/number of external lights
number/placement of florescent lights
electric spark ignition for the oven
shape/design of the bathroom wall/door
changes in the wardrobe
materials of cushions etc.
*Rounded whell wells is a biggie around 2004 I believe
*No longer using wood in the walls around 2002

As most have mentioned the changes have been minor. I put an * next to the biggest changes in my opinion.

[ng2951]

In case anyone has been reading this thread we bought a used (2006) 3326 from a family in Baton Rouge. We are very happy with it.

[larsdennert]

Looks like you guys were living in style compared to the others in your group! Gotta love it.
Yea but the others weren't trying to go camping with a 9 month old and 2 year old and I had a horrible cold. We got plenty of ribbing in the morning because it was so cold at night, "Hey heard that heater all night. Were you warm enough?" "Well at least the walls muffled the crying little ones huh?"

In reality, one of the guys owns a fifth wheel so I don't pity him anyway.

From the 3326 post it sounds like many TMs tow similiar. You have a newer Taco with the 4.0l?