2 Questions from an "almost" owner [Archive]

TraceyMac

11-18-2007, 02:37 PM

My wife and I are almost first time owners of a 2720. We will get in in about 2 weeks - the only "if" is that it has to fit in our garage - our dealer is bringing it down to San Diego for a "test fit" - assuming it fits, we will be the owners of a near new (it is about 2 months old) 2720. Our garage is long enough and 82 inches high with a slight slope to the driveway - that is the only question.
First, I'd like to start out with a big thank you to all of the Trailmanor forums members who took the time to post so much useful information. This forum is a great resource for folks like me looking to learn about TMs and know as much as possible before we take the plunge.
I have looked around and still have a few questions that I am sure someone could answer:

1. Is there any way to charge things like cell phones, and iPods while running on 12v power only. I would have thought that a cigarette lighter receptacle would be the way to do it, but I can't find any reference to anyone with this mod, so I don't know if there is a better way, or there is something I am missing. I am sure that there are lots of TM owners whop need to charge their phones and other assorted small appliances.

2. Can anyone in San Diego recommend a good RV store to purchase the many items we will need. AS first time campers, we have a lot of stuff to purchase.

Thanks in advance.

Leslie & Nick

11-18-2007, 03:26 PM

1. Is there any way to charge things like cell phones, and iPods while running on 12v power only. I would have thought that a cigarette lighter receptacle would be the way to do it, but I can't find any reference to anyone with this mod, so I don't know if there is a better way, or there is something I am missing. I am sure that there are lots of TM owners whop need to charge their phones and other assorted small appliances. Thanks in advance.

We have a 2619 (I doubt if factory would have discontinued it on 2720s) and there is a 12V receptacle mounted next to the antenna booster. It's mounted on the refrigerator cabinet (on the RH side as you enter the TM). We use it for exactly what you mentioned - cell phones and iPods. Thanks to the
on- board converter, you can use this receptacle even when you're hooked up to 115V shore power.

Can't help on San Diego area RV dealers. WalMart and Camping World have lots of RV 'stuff' around here.

Nick

donnap

11-18-2007, 03:31 PM

Hi,
I always charge my phone in my TV.
If you have a Camping World near you that would be the place to shop. Join their Presidents Club and give you a 10% discount on everying plus other benefits. I have purchased some items on line from other companys and that is a way of saving money on some items. If you google camping supplies and equipment, there are numerous sites. Hope it fits in the garage. We have a 2720SL with the swing hitch and it fits.

Scott O

11-18-2007, 03:44 PM

The dealer is "bringing it down" for a test fit...sounds like you are working with CustomRV in Anaheim. If so, you chose well, as they are fabulous to deal with and will go out of their way to accomodate you. As far as stores go, I was disappointed with WalMart but find Camping World carries everything I need, as well as a significant number of things I want! Closest to you would probably by the San Marcos store. Enjoy your TM...

Freedom

11-18-2007, 03:45 PM

2. Can anyone in San Diego recommend a good RV store to purchase the many items we will need. AS first time campers, we have a lot of stuff to purchase.
Do you have a Wal-Mart close by? They have a lot of RV stuff and are a whole lot cheaper than Camping World - for the same items! I won't buy anything at an RV store until I check Wal-mart first. Even the little fans that many of us use in the refrigerator are available at Wal-mart for less. Lynx levelers are also available at Wal-Mart - or you can pay 20% more and get them at Camping world after the 10% off for buying their membership. So if you don't want to pay to be a member, you get to pay 30% more. . .

MidwestDave

11-18-2007, 04:43 PM

We have a 2006 / 2720 with a lift kit (+2") and a low profile A/C (+14 1/4")which makes our trailer "taller" than the standard TM. We have a eight foot apron to the garage from the alley way. This appron is at a slope of 0-15" in the eight foot run. My garage door with the door disconnected from the opener is 83" high.
We put our in the garage for the first time last month with no problems.
As for charging cell phone, there is a socket for this by the tv antennea so charging cell phone should not be a problem. Good luck!

BobRederick

11-18-2007, 05:48 PM

TraceyMac,

You have good suggestions so far. I would suggest you put off the urges to get "everything" you need until you are sure it will be used. No sense carrying around clutter that won't be used.

Have fun!

TraceyMac

11-18-2007, 06:22 PM

Thanks to all for the info and suggestions for WalMart and Camping World. I will definitely try them out first.
Scott - Yes, we are buying it from Custom RV - so far they have been great. The TM is a used one, but only about 2 months old. It comes with 2 Honda 2000 generators and a WD hitch (although I haven't decided yet if I will use the WD hitch) and the dealer is putting the 40G water tank mod in for us prior to delivery.
I have read reams and reams on the WD hitch topic both here and on the Ridgeline forum. Honda recommends against the use of the WD hitch, but clearly most folks believe they are a very necessary safety addition. I am essentially getting one for "free" so I will try both with and without and see what works best for the Ridgeline.
I have downloaded the excellent checklists I found on the site and will be studying them to figure out the essentials before I go buying all of the "stuff" that I am sure to need.
Thanks again to all of you for your help.

Bill

11-18-2007, 06:49 PM

I would suggest you put off the urges to get "everything" you need until you are sure it will be used. No sense carrying around clutter that won't be used.Hoo, boy, is Bob right on this one! First, don't buy anything until you see what your dealer gives you. Most dealers throw in a "beginner's kit" with a lot of goodies like sewer hose, water hose, bottle of champagne, and so forth. Just the necessities, you understand.

Then, using Mike & Kelly's checklist in the TM Technical Reference Library (aka TM Info You Won't Find Anywhere Else), try to figure out what you really need, but don't have.

Having tent-camped for years, and cabin-camped for years, my wife and I originally loaded up the TM with everything we could conceivably ever have any need for in any circumstance. It was a lot of fun, but when it was over, we couldn't get into the trailer ourselves! Better to camp first, and keep a little notebook titled "I wish I had ...". After two or three trips, and multi-page lists, you will find yourself down to one or two items per trip.

Bill

Scott O

11-18-2007, 10:01 PM

TracyMac:

As far as the WD hitch goes...Put the TM on the Ridgeline without the WD hitch. It the back of the Ridgeline drops and the front raises, you need a WD hitch. Measure from the top of the wheelwells to the ground. Bill has posted a good article on adjusting the WD hitch. Check out 'TrailManor Information You Won't Find Anywhere Else.'

Scott O

11-18-2007, 10:06 PM

I just noticed that EdFromMaine's recent post on his Portland to Portland trip told about his use of a Ridgeline as his TV. He used a WDH, but with a larger trailer. You might contact him for info.

JapChinLvr

11-20-2007, 04:44 PM

Welcome to the Trailmanor! Custom RV Guys are amazing. They really knock themselves out for you. The first thing you should buy for the TM is a membership to this site. These folks will help you out so much!

TraceyMac

11-20-2007, 04:55 PM

Thanks JapChinLvr (that's a neew breed on me) - It's good to hear positive things about the dealer we are about to give a lot of money to. I agree on the value of the site - in fact I am already signed up - got the forum membership before I got my TM. The information on the site is invaluable for someone like me that is new to both TMs and camping in general. I really appreciate the time and effort folks go to in sharing their knowledge and wisdom - hopefully I can learn before I make some of the usual mistakes. We get the TM (2008 2720) in about a week and a half - can't wait!!
Sign me GermanShephardLover

mtnguy

11-20-2007, 05:27 PM

Tracey, welcome to the forum!!

I am a believer in a WDH, even with heavier TVs like my F150. The WDH gets some of the geometry back into the vehicle, like the manufacturer intended. The TM tongue weights are a little heavier than most comparable sized trailers......but that is what makes them tow so well.

Just my $.02.

Chap

mike-rm-cd

11-26-2007, 11:59 AM

Tracey: Welcome to the fun new world of TrailManors. We started (a year ago) with a used 2002 2720SD. Towed it to Arizona and back without a WDH. Towed just fine. Then I talked to my tire/brakes/hitch guy, and he convinced me to try a $400 Reese WDH (550 # spring bars). This set-up made the TM tow much better than the previous "just fine."

In July, we traded up to a 3326. Used the same WDH (550# bars), and it tows very nicely and sits level. TV is '05 Toyota Tundra, short bed, nothing fancy. The dealer "insisted" I needed 750# bars, so I borrowed two from my tire guy, and tried them on a couple of trips. Everything is just as level, but there is no "give," or flex when I use them.

So I gave them back, and use the 550# bars, and it's a happy camper. The dual axles may also help, in my case. I weighed the TM recently - 4600 lbs.

I think experimenting and trying both with and without makes good sense. Another data point - when we towed the 2720SD without using the WDH, the TM trailer hitch would tend to "scrape" a low point in a driveway, say to a gas station.

Also, it's another story for another time - but when you first start forward (say from the gas pumps on the left side) go forward far enough (use your mirrors) to make sure you don't bump something (like the steel protective bars near the gas pumps). Or, the TM doesn't always turn like you assumed!! Mike

PopBeavers

11-26-2007, 06:38 PM

I am a believer in a WDH, even with heavier TVs like my F150. The WDH gets some of the geometry back into the vehicle, like the manufacturer intended. The TM tongue weights are a little heavier than most comparable sized trailers......but that is what makes them tow so well.
Chap
With a sufficiently large TV, I don't believe that anything is gained by adding a WD hitch. I also don't think that anything is lost, other than money.

I was advised by the factory that I would not need one.

I believe that the purpose of a WD hitch is to remove the sag in the rear suspension of the TV and to prevent the "bounce" that occurs at the hitch when harmonic oscillations set in. I have neither.

If you believe this, then the question becomes how big is sufficiently big? I would guess that any TV with out a frame is small enough to need a WD hitch. I am a little surprised to find out that a 1/2 ton truck also needs one. I know that when I connect the TM that my rear bumper sags about 5/8 inch and the front bumper rises less than 1/2 inch. It has never bounced.

For me, any trailer that is big enough to be required by law to have brakes installed is big enough that I want a TV with a full rigid frame. I have never been a fan of uni-body construction, ever since I watched my 1975 Pinto station wagon collapse when someone rear ended me on the freeway, while I was inside. I was stopped and the person that hit me was only doing about 45 mph. We each need to find out own level of comfort.

Bill

11-26-2007, 08:52 PM

With a sufficiently large TV, I don't believe that anything is gained by adding a WD hitch. I also don't think that anything is lost, other than money.

I believe that the purpose of a WD hitch is to remove the sag in the rear suspension of the TV and to prevent the "bounce" that occurs at the hitch when harmonic oscillations set in. I have neither.Wayne, I know we have discussed this before, but how do you feel about the fact that the trailer's tongue weight, applied behind the rear axle, unloads the front wheels? At what point does that become significant? In my opinion, that is the primary purpose of a WDH - to restore the proper weight on the front end (the steering and braking end) of the tow vehicle. There are any number of ways to remove the sag so that the headlights point in the right direction, and some of our members swear by air bags or helper shocks. But neither of those restore the proper loading of the front end.

I can't speak to "bounce", never having experienced it.

Bill

Shandysplace

11-27-2007, 05:39 AM

From our Suburban Manual:

"If you are using a weigt carrying hitch, the trailer tongue should weigh 10% of the total loaded trailer weight (465 lbs. estimated for our 3326). If you're using a weight distributing hitch, the trailer tongue should weigh 12% of the total loaded trailer weight or 552 lbs."

But the highest tongue weight recommended on the tongue is 500 lbs.

Should we just try the trailer first and if there's no sag, forget the WDH or pay attention to the numbers above and have one installed when we take delivery?

PopBeavers

11-27-2007, 09:48 AM

Wayne, I know we have discussed this before, but how do you feel about the fact that the trailer's tongue weight, applied behind the rear axle, unloads the front wheels? At what point does that become significant? In my opinion, that is the primary purpose of a WDH - to restore the proper weight on the front end (the steering and braking end) of the tow vehicle. There are any number of ways to remove the sag so that the headlights point in the right direction, and some of our members swear by air bags or helper shocks. But neither of those restore the proper loading of the front end.

I can't speak to "bounce", never having experienced it.

Bill
I have never weighed my truck without the TM attached, but when I did weigh it the weight on all three axles, TV front, TV rear and TM was pretty close to being the same. I do remember that the TM axle weight was 3380. The truck axles were between 3300 and 3399 as I recall.

There is no change to steering that I can detect as the driver.

There is no noticeable change to the aiming of the headlights, though obviously they are a little high. The headlights appear normal to me as the driver, and oncoming traffic has never flashed their headlights at me.

My truck is quite likely a little heavier than the average TV used with a TM and my wheelbase is also quite likely a little longer than the average TV used with a TM.

If I don't pay close attention to the speedometer I will hit speeds higher than 70 mph without even knowing it. So, in areas with low traffic, I just set the cruise control to 55 and let the computer maintain the speed.

I still believe that not all trucks will be helped with a WD hitch. Since the F150 has been reported as being helped with a WD hitch, and I am reporting that I don't see that it would change anything, my conclusion is that a 3/4 ton truck or larger appears to be the smallest truck that is above the boundary line of use or do not sue a WD hitch.

fwiw, the one time I made a near panic stop when towing the TM, I was surprised at how quickly it stopped and how straight it stopped. The impression I got was that I stopped in pretty much the same distance that I would have stopped if I were not towing.

We love our 1500HD, but may replace it next year with a 2500HD, so we can get an 8 foot bed instead of the 6.5 foot bed. I need more room to haul more stuff.

Now, if I ever have to make a panic stop, when towing downhill, in an off camber turn, then I might reach a different conclusion. But as long as I continue to not encounter that situation I have great confidence in what I am driving.

Bill

11-27-2007, 11:31 AM

My truck is quite likely a little heavier than the average TV used with a TM and my wheelbase is also quite likely a little longer than the average TV used with a TM. <snip> I still believe that not all trucks will be helped with a WD hitch. Since the F150 has been reported as being helped with a WD hitch, and I am reporting that I don't see that it would change anything, my conclusion is that a 3/4 ton truck or larger appears to be the smallest truck that is above the boundary line of use or do not sue a WD hitch.Wayne -

Based on my own experience with my Explorer (which counts as a 1/2 ton, I believe), as well as the reports of others, I think that you have reached a pretty good conclusion. It is a rule of thumb, of course, and I suppose there may be exceptions. For example, a really long-wheelbase 1/2-ton truck (crewcab long bed, for example) might get away without a WDH, because the front end won't be unweighted very much, out at the end of that long lever arm. But I think there will not be many exceptions. Thanks for the thoughts and reasoning.

Bill

larsdennert

11-28-2007, 07:05 PM

It's all relative. My brother-in-law tows his toy hauler with an Excursion which is the biggest SUV there is. His rear drops 6" WITH the WDH. No one is above the line per se but for a TM, I agree there is a line. Everyone draws it differently. I think it's worth trying both ways but I prefer not having a WDH as it is less to hookup and allows me to tow off road. Since you will be putting in a 40 gal tank, that's another 160lbs in addition to the stock full 20 gal tank. You'll see really quick if your Ridgeline will need help. 300lbs on the back of a 1/2 ton truck (1000lb) shouldn't be an issue. I've gone on trips with far more than 300lbs loaded up (without the trailer).

Custom RV is great. That's where mine originally came from. I bought it used from a third party but almost bought another unit from them. Nice guys!

mike-rm-cd

11-28-2007, 10:53 PM

That's the great thing about the TM Owner's Forum site: everybody has a bit of information to offer. We all then go out and off to try and to experiment. If one configuration works well for you - use it. If another works better, THAT may be the answer.

The older I become, the fewer the absolutes and truths! All works, some work better - and that may also be perspective and experience and "feel."

Bill

11-29-2007, 09:57 AM

It's all relative. 300lbs on the back of a 1/2 ton truck (1000lb) shouldn't be an issue. I've gone on trips with far more than 300lbs loaded up (without the trailer).Lars -

I think you may have missed the point of a WDH. Putting 300 pounds in the wayback, above the truck's axle, is different from putting 300 pounds way out BEHIND the axle. The first situation calls for simple weight-carrying capacity, which a half-ton truck certainly has. In the second situation, the weight is on one end of a teeter-totter, which tends to lift the other end (the front wheels) off the ground. This so-called unweighting is what is dangerous, since it effects steering, handling, and braking.

By the way, most folks find that the tongue weight of as loaded 2720 is closer to 450 pounds than it is to 300 pounds.

Just my thoughts ...

Bill

larsdennert

11-29-2007, 10:49 AM

That's interesting info. I'd like to find a scale with enough capacity to measure my tongue weight. I've always wondered whether TM's specs of 300 included batteries and propane. Probably not. Looking at how far back the axle sits, it would be amazing. 450 would be above the tongue weight for a 3500lb tow spec vehicle. Not a good thing. I can see how a WDH would be pretty critical to carry/transfer that kind of weight on any softer suspension.

I guess I'm a bad example to compare to as I have an otherwise modified vehicle. I can report that I have no noticeable unloading of the front end as the vehicle sits level while carrying. It handles pretty poorly anyway and the TM doesn't make it any worse. 60-65mph is comfortable though. Bumpy freeways at 35mph can be bouncy though.

Bill

11-29-2007, 12:33 PM

That's interesting info. I'd like to find a scale with enough capacity to measure my tongue weight. I've always wondered whether TM's specs of 300 included batteries and propane. Probably not. Looking at how far back the axle sits, it would be amazing. Lars -

I don't know if batteries and propane are included in the stated tongue weight or not. But as you point out, nearly everything you load into a TM will sit forward of the axle, and will add a bit to the tongue weight. By the way, you can determine the tongue weight pretty easily with a bathroom scale. (Numbers below are examples.) Just get a strong board, maybe 4 feet long. Draw two lines across the board, perhaps 3 feet apart. Draw a third line exactly halfway between those marks. Put the scale on the ground, and put a couple bricks beside it, about 3 feet away. Now put a dowel, a piece of pipe, or something equally narrow in the middle of the scale, and a similar narrow object on the bricks. Set your board to bridge the gap, and make sure the dowels (etc) are exactly under the lines on the board. Now put your TM tongue on the center line, and crank it up a bit. At this point, half of the tongue weight is being supported by the scale, and half by the bricks - so read the scale and double the reading. That's the tongue weight.

If it exceeds the capacity of your scale, you can set the lengths to 2/3 and 1/3, and triple the scale reading.I guess I'm a bad example to compare to as I have an otherwise modified vehicle. I can report that I have no noticeable unloading of the front end, [since] the vehicle sits level while carrying.Heh, heh! Yes, we guys who advocate for WDHs just hate you guys who use air bags. Air bags make things level - but they don't restore the missing weight to the front end. Only a WDH can do that. So even though the vehicle is level, you are still driving around with extra weight on the rear suspension and tires, and too little weight on the front tires. How much weight is removed from the front end? You'd have to find a real scale and measure. Does that amount of unweighting matter on your particular vehicle? Well, I don't know - but I'm unwilling to take the chance on mine. YMMV, of course.Bumpy freeways at 35mph can be bouncy though.That's one of the joys of air bags.

In the WDH vs airbags debate, there will always be doubters out there, and air bags eliminate that one additional step in the hookup procedure - snapping up the chains. So we agree to disagree, and wish you well.

Bill

camp2canoe

11-29-2007, 12:36 PM

I tow my 2619 with a 2003 Ford 4wd F150 Supercrew with a fiberglass cap and usually a full load in the bed and a canoe or two on top of the cap. I've never felt the need for a WDH on this half ton unit. Just as an aside, I have grey hair from towing my 22' sailboat with this same rig which is literally all over the road when going downhill or at anything over 55mph. The dry weight of the unloaded boat w/o trailer is @2293# and the estimated dry weight of the 2619 without gear is 2673#. I suspect this is because my boat/trailer rig are not very well matched but also because TM did something right in designing the 2619. - camp2canoe

PopBeavers

11-29-2007, 02:04 PM

Bill

11-29-2007, 02:36 PM

Camp2canoe -

Wayne has nailed it. You kind of know the weight of the sailboat, now add the weight of the trailer and all the gear you have added to the boat. You know - the aux motor, gasoline, battery, anchors, life jackets, coolers and beverages of your choice, etc. The tongue weight should be a minimum of 10% of the total weight. TM's run closer to 14%, if I recall, and this is what gives them their wonderful lack of sway. If you can move the axle on the sailboat trailer back, to put the tongue weight somewhere in the 10-15% range, you should be a lot happier.

Naturally, all numbers are the loaded, ready-to-tow numbers, of the boat and trailer, not the dry weight of the boat alone. If the dry weight of the boat alone is 2300 pounds, the loaded weight of the boat and trailer is probably around 3000 pounds, so the tongue weight should be at least 300 pounds, and 400 pounds would be better. In other words, if you can bend over, pick up the tongue off the ground and put it on the hitch ball, it is way too light.

Bill

grakin

11-29-2007, 02:52 PM

I don't use a WDH, as I don't think my rig would be made any safer with one, although I will try one at some point in time (if I can find a suitable one to borrow from someone), just to see if it would reduce stress or not.

For others using a weight carrying hitch (a NON-WDH), you might want to verify your hitch, drawbar, and ball are beefy enough for the tongue weight. I've seen some pretty weak 2 inch balls, and had to look for one with what I thought was adequate reserve capability (I use a ball and drawbar that are rated for 750 pounds tongue weight, into a receiver that is rated for at least that - forgot the exact spec). With two heavy batteries and propane up front, I figured it's not worth taking a chance (I haven't yet had a chance to weigh the tongue). Personally I'd be very cautious of even stuff rated 500 pounds with a TM, from reported tongue weights I've seen.

Bill & Lisa

11-30-2007, 01:47 PM

Back to the first question. The larger TMs actually have 2 12v recepticles. There is a second 12v and cable connection down low near the floor just forward of the rear bed. This is for a TV in the "bedroom". If you don't have a car adapter, a cheaper route may be to buy one of the small inverters that plug into a 12v recepticle. Then you just plug your regular AC plug into the inverter and charge that way. It is definately not as efficient as charging via DC only but some of these companies charge an arm and a leg for car chargers and one inverter will work for any type of phone, pda, etc. You just have to take turns charging them, but you have to do that anyway even with a car adapter (unless you get one of those plug ins that gives you multiple dc outlets but that is a different story)
Bill

camp2canoe

11-30-2007, 04:15 PM

Thanks, Wayne and Bill, for the suggestions and proving once again that there is literally no question or issue that someone on the forum won't have insight into. I can't move the axle on my sailboat trailer back but what I have done is move the winch post up as far as I possibly can - it actually overlaps the frame channels. I've tried to reduce as much weight as possible behind the axle and move as much weight forward (fill the 5 gallon water supply, charge the porta potty, carry the extra anchor and chain as far up under the vee berth as possible, etc.) as I can. - camp2canoe (except when we're sailing)

larsdennert

11-30-2007, 06:14 PM