Some thoughts on tire failure...

[grakin]

I just got back from a 7,000 mile trip. I am happy to say the TM held up well, although I've got a list of things to get fixed in the TM (leaking water inlet hose, piece of upper wall molding falling off, countertop chipped, rock guard doesn't close right, etc). But overall I'm very happy, and I expect all of these things to be fixed when I take the TM back to my dealer at the end of the season (I'll report back though!).

As I was driving, I thought of a few ways we might be contributing to tire failure.

1. Full tanks. My 40 gallon freshwater tank plus 6 gallon hot water tank add about 368 pounds, or over half the total cargo capacity to the street side wheels. That's probably pushing things.

2. High speed. The faster you go, the more a given stretch of tire has to flex.

3. Overloading with too much stuff!

4. Weight distribution - say 600 pounds of tongue weight, you are sending 200 of that back to the wheels. That cuts significantly into your payload capacity (more than 200 pounds of payload quite possibly, see next point).

5. Badly distributed weight. If you put weight in the back, you lower the tongue weight (the trailer pivots on the wheels). So, if I add 10 pounds of weight in the back, and that lowers the tongue weight by 5 pounds, I've added 15 pounds (my new 10 plus the 5 the tongue was supporting) to my tires. The further back your weight, the more weight you put on the tires, but it's *ALWAYS* more then the actual cargo weight unless you put your weight in front of the tires!

6. Accessories not included in the dry weight

Are there other things that we can control that will give us longer tire life?

[Fdxflyer]

Two thoughts on tire failures...
Has anyone used nitrogen in tires instead of air? No change in pressure with temp. or altitude. I have it in my TV (2008 F250). By maintaining constant pressure there should be less chance of failure dueto over/under inflation. Also, it has been recommended to me to have a laser alignment of axle vs frame to reduce side loads. In answer to obvious question - I haven't checked on availability of nitro other than thru truck dealer.

[mjlaupp]

Has anyone used nitrogen in tires instead of air? No change in pressure with temp. or altitude. I have it in my TV (2008 F250). By maintaining constant pressure there should be less chance of failure dueto over/under inflation.

Do a search on nitrogen for additional info.

[Bill]

...nitrogen instead of air? No change in pressure with temp. or altitude.Excuse me? Someone has been jerking your chain (or your wallet) pretty badly. I hate to be a bummer, but you seriously need to do some research - and then change tire mechanics.

Bill

[wbmiller3]

Why wouldn't an N2 inflated tire change gauge reading with altitude? It's the outside pressure that changes when elevation changes, not the tire pressure.

Gauge pressure = pressure in vessel - ambient pressure. A tire inflated to 50 psi at sea level has 64.7 psi in absolute terms. If you go up to 14000 feet the ambient pressure will be 0.587 * 14.7 = 8.6 psi. Your gauge would then read about 56 psi. Nothing changed about the gas in the tire.

I'd guess the stress/strain on the tire carcass is a function of the differential pressure, so it makes sense to use gauge pressure where you are to inflate the tire.

Also, N2 definitely does change pressure with temperature changes. Pressure = gas constant * mass * temperature / volume to a first approximation for any gas at reasonable pressures. The constant may change but the proportion is there. Also, remember air is mostly N2 in the first place.

[Freedom]

+ air is free and N2 isn't. About the only plus I can think of is that N2 probably is less of a corrosive to the inside of the tire. I think your tire guy sold you a bill of goods.

[Fdxflyer]

According to what I have read N2 has a different molecular structure than O2 and diffuses at a different rate which helps in maintaining pressure,i.e. it doesn't leak out as fast. Water vapor present in your compressor air and far less so in N2 also contributes to corrosion and variants in pressure. Bottom line, regardless of the specific mechanics, if N2 was no better why would race car tires, airplane tires and numerous other high performance vehicles have N2 in their tires? As far as cost goes, anything I can do to reduce the risk of a blowout (a problem many have written about but nobody really seems to know why or have a solution for) I'll spend $10 a tire for N2 for the life of the tire. Seems like cheap added insurance to me.

[wmtire]

We have several sales reps trying to sell us a nitrogen system at my shop. Tires running cooler and losing pressure slower, are always their stressed selling points to me. I took the following from one of the sales brochures we have for a Branick Nitrogen system. Maybe this will help:

Nitrogen Inflation Program
BRANICK

Benefits of Nitrogen Filled Tires:

Maintains Air Pressure Longer
Tires Run Cooler
Customers Return To Maintain Air Pressure/Tire Dealer Checks Vehicle for Maintenance

Even tires properly inflated lose pressure because oxygen migrates through the tire innerliner. Nitrogen migrates 3 to 4 times slower than oxygen preserving the inflation pressure for up to three times longer. Nitrogen contains no moisture. This, combined with the elimination of oxygen, reduces rust and oxidation of the wheel and innerliner. Tires also run cooler since nitrogen retains less heat than oxygen. The Branick Nitrogen Tire Inflation System is a free-standing nitrogen generation system using an internal membrane to separate nitrogen from the air provided from your air compressor. Tires may be inflated directly from the station or nitrogen can be stored in a backup tank for additional capacity.

[BobRederick]

Nitrogen has a greater thermal conductivity than air, so if the heated nitrogen can get to a cool surface (the wheel rim?) the heat can be carried off more quickly resulting in a lower temperature. How much lower? I can't answer that.

[Fdxflyer]

I guess I stirred the pot enough with the nitrogen. Any thoughts out there about the axle/frame alignment? I have taken it for granted they would be aligned but if they aren't it would seem to cause a lot of sidewall stress which it sounds like is what is failing in the reported failures. But then, if they were not aligned it would also seem that the TM would not track properly. Just thoughts readers... I'm no expert and it seems there is a problem and nobody appears to have a real answer so I am just bouncing ideas.

[Joseph]

WMTIRE is our resident tire man.

He and a few others are trying out some new size/type tires. I believe he is waiting for some real world data to come back from his test subjects.. Folks he has sent some test tires to. It is just going to take a little time to get the results back from the testing. There is a WHOLE bunch of data on the subject listed in the forum. Have you taken a look a this thread?

Another (!) tire failure.

Located in Tires, Tires, Tires,

Till then, load the TM as light as you can, watch the air pressure, ( you can get another spare as I have ) and go for it!:)

[Bill]

Nitrogen has a greater thermal conductivity than air, so if the heated nitrogen can get to a cool surface (the wheel rim?) the heat can be carried off more quickly resulting in a lower temperature. How much lower? I can't answer that.But Bob, plain old air is 80% nitrogen. And of the remaining 20%, most is oxygen, which has nearly the same conductivity as nitrogen. So how much different can the overall conductivity be?

Nitrogen has one important property - it slides money out of your wallet, and makes you feel good about it. Plain old air can't match this.

By the way, the Car Talk boys agree. As do 144,000 Google hits for "nitrogen tires scam". See, for example, http://www.cartalk.com/content/columns/Archive/1997/September/05.html
Any good air compressor will remove moisture from the compressed air, which is the only possible argument. If you use a cheapie air compressor (the kind you put quarters into at the local convenience store), and you live in a humid environment, then you may put a bit of moisture into the wheel, and in 100 years the wheel may rust a bit. Other than that - nada.

It is sometimes claimed that nitrogen diffuses through the tire's sidewall more slowly than "air", and so with 100% nitrogen (from your tire guy's tank), the tire pressure doesn't drop as fast as with 80% nitrogen (plain air). Makes sense? Nope. The oxygen molecule is bigger than the nitrogen molecule, so it is slower (not faster) to pass through microscopic pores.

Save your money. Buy swampland in Florida. It has a bigger chance of paying off.

Bill

[bill s]

i'm about to decide on light truck tires for my 3124 kb (15" wheels)
unless this great forum can come up with some serious cons.....my family
is having serious angust about the gy marathons!!!!!
per wmtire.i'm trying to check out some info on titans (ie price.date of manufacture.ply etc)

thanks for any help in this "wrenching" decision

bill s

[2bcs1jrt]

I had Titans (ST) on my TM and had a major blow out with tread seperation earlier this year. They were considered defective by the sellers and the mfgr. The tires were 2yrs old and we drive slow and travel light. HOWEVER they were 13" which is not likely the case for you.
And it is no longer the case for me!

Cheri

[wmtire]

per wmtire.i'm trying to check out some info on titans (ie price.date of manufacture.ply etc)

thanks for any help in this "wrenching" decision

bill s

Biil S, I will gladly help you with the DOT codes on the Titans, but I have absolutely no experience with that particular branded name. I may just be misinterpreting your "per wmtire" comment. I have not mentioned owning/using Titan in any of my posts, so far. I did say I have some Pro-Meter's that are most likely made by the same manufacturer as the Titan's. If the Titan's have the same DOT as the Pro-meters, then both of us will be using/testing the same tire in essence. Were you able to get the DOT numbers from the Titans?

Most of our effort to date, has been spent on finding alternatives to the 14" inch Marathons, as everyone's comments seemed to dictate that's where the majority of the tire failures lay. I would say we are in the testing phase for 14 inch tires right now.

The 15" tire alternatives have become a beast of their own, and we are still actively searching for better solutions.

On another note: Since we started trying to find better tires for our trailers, all of this "Made in China" scare has hit the marketplace in the last month, whether it be tires, toothpaste, catfish, etc. Many, and I emphasize "many" of the trailer tires are now being made in China, along with Goodyear Marathons. China's quality control is highly suspect right now in the world's eyes.

I have to ask this question from a seller, American, and also from a TMowner's standpoint. Should we disqualify any test tire if it is made in China? Has everyone got a "China Syndrome" :) now?.......similar to what happened with Firestone and Ford several years ago. Everyone's comments would be appreciated, and also save some time in our searching, if we're going to omit China made tires.

Thanks

[Bill]

Bobby -

I think Bill S's comments were directed at the question of light truck (LT) tires versus special trailer (ST) tires. We've had a lot of discussion about the advisability (or non-advisability) of using LT tires on a trailer, but I haven't heard a convincing argument against it.

As for Chinese-made tires. If you eliminate them, are there any left? Michelin (France) is the one that comes to mind, but they don't make a trailer tire. Are there other choices?

Bill

[Joseph]

I have to ask this question from a seller, American, and also from a TMowner's standpoint. Should we disqualify any test tire if it is made in China? Has everyone got a "China Syndrome" now?.......

WMTIRE - No " China Syndrome " here..:) In the world I work in we let results speak for themselves, no matter where something was made. If memory serves, ( and sometimes it don't!) the extra spare I put together was made with a "towmaster?" tire. Codes say that it was made in China June 2006. Looks just like the Goodyear Marathons already on the TM..uuhhmmmm :rolleyes:

I would go out and verify however it is now stored in the back of the TV for upcoming trip. I would have to dig it out. I sincerely hope I do not have to dig it out!;) But if I do I will let you know if it does not hold up. Thanks WMTIRE for being point on this.