Solar Panels on TM?? [Archive] - TrailManor Owner's Forum

Bruce

01-08-2003, 12:20 AM

OK Gregg & Hal, I just found my old article re. my solar panel installation. You cannot search for it from the search button at the top of this page - you need to go to the Old TM Discussion Page by clicking on it once you pull up the TM Index. Then hit search there and type in "solar panel" and it will pull up a few matches.
I tried copying my article while I was there and I'll see if I can paste it here and save you the trouble (though you may want to see the other letters also).

I have mounted 2 80 watt solar panels on the front section roof of our TM. I also added a rack for 2 extra deep cycle batteries behind the propane bottles giving us 3 batteries total. The system works very well. The batteries never go below the 2nd light on the battery tester panel which I suppose is 80% charge or so. Batteries will last much longer if they are never deeply discharged. I had to adjust the torsion bars after installing the panels but the roof lifts up OK. I attached the right side (opposite of the antenna) of the panels to the edge of the roof right over the white rubber seal. There is an aluminum support under this section which allows you to drill and insert sheet metal screws. For the middle of the roof I used a piece of 3" X 22" flat aluminum stock for each 22" wide panel. I attached the panel legs to the stock with pop rivets and then glued the aluminum down to the roof with Liquid Nails. With this method there are no holes in the middle of the roof to worry about. I sealed the screws on the edge with elastomer sealant. I ran the cable down the right side with plastic cable guides screwed into the roof edge. I then ran it halfway across the bottom front portion of the upper shell and from there to the regulator mounted on the front of the tongue just behind the hitch. When the unit is opened the cable runs straight down to the regulator and when it is closed the cable nestles in between the propane bottles. We have boondocked for weeks at a time with this setup. Given our moderate electrical useage I think our system is a bit overpowered but it maintains full charge with only a few hours of sunlight a day. Better too much than too little. I purchased my setup from RV Solar Electric, (800 999-8520), in Scottsdale, Az. Their prices are good and their followup service is excellent. They publish a booklet on how to install solar panels an RV and how to size your system.

Guess it worked!
email me if you have any specific questions.

Bruce

2619PDX

01-08-2003, 03:16 AM

THANK YOU Bruce! This is VERY helpful.
What kind of weight did that add? Have you noticed any effects when towing from the added weight? Any problems when pulling the front section up?

I guess what I'm asking is - Is there a downside? Prior to my doing this. And I am convinced I need to do it.

Next question, since you have experience with Solar panels. I live in Oregon where it's cloudy more during the  winter, spring and fall, than it is sunny. We do camp during these times. Will the solar panels still be effective at keeping the batteries topped off?

Thanks!

Bruce

01-08-2003, 11:41 AM

Gregg,
  How much weight did it add? Well each battery is appx 50-60 lbs, so 2 extra batteries or 3 if you count the one in the cabinet inside. The 80 watt panels are not very heavy, probably 10 lbs apiece. I would guess 170-200 lbs total. I think the rule of thumb is 1 panel and 1 battery per person.
  I do not notice any difference in towing from the weight, but, of course, all weight adds to your  total load. The one time we had our rig weighed it was at 4800#, just 200# below the allowable max.
   The shell is a little more difficult to pull up (but it  goes down real easy). If I had it to do again I would place the 2 panels on opposite sides of the front roof rather than both on one side so the weight is better distributed.
  I had  a local welder fabricate the  battery box for the 2 extra batteries behind the propane bottles. Keep in mind the batteries must be mounted low enough to clear the slide out - if you have a slide out model that is.
  Solar panels are great to have if you want to boondock in some of those beautiful primitive national forest campgrounds in peace & quiet. They are not so good if you are camping in places that offer elec. for a few $ more. Once you factor in the cost of running your fridge on propane and your water heater, if you have a dual mode heater, or the cost of running the furnace vs. a little electric heater the cost savings is very small.
  I have made the mistake also of pulling into state park campgrounds and taking a site without elec. just because I have so much invested in the solar setup and so I want to use it and save as much as possible. The weather maybe mild when we pull in on a weekday but then the weekend comes and it is hotter than blazes and there we are stuck with no AC and all the sites are now full!
  Of course if you're boondocking running the AC is going to require a really big generator or 2; something I'm not willing to put up with. If we see the weather really heating up we head for a full service campground.
  One thing that really helps with cooling is a Fantastic Fan. You can even set the fan on exhaust, close all windows except one and hang a wet towel in front of the window to give you evaporative cooling.
  Solar panels will generate some elec. when it is cloudy or overcast. If your system is slightly oversized you should be fine on cloudy days. One good day of  sunshine will charge the batteries back up again. It is a really neat feeling to realize all your elec. power is being gererated by the sun.
  It might be wise to read the book "RVers' Guide to Solar Battery Charging" by Noel Kirkby, available from RV Solar Electric Co. before making the leap.

Hope  this helps,
Bruce

 

2619PDX

01-09-2003, 03:53 AM

Bruce. You've answered my questions. I really appreciate it. You've communicated this in an organized and easy to understand manner. Thank you. I'm going to read that book too.

Thanks for the tip about installing the panels to the sides of the roof. That'll help. we have a 2619 - not a slide out model. They battery tray has room for 3 batteries in series.

One of the things on my TO DO list is to install 2 six volt batteries in series, so why not just add the 3 now?

Then I can hook up my solar later...

oilspot

01-28-2003, 12:58 AM

Bruce,

Thanks for all the helpful information!

I was just planning to install a 5watt panel, which pretty much just trickle charges the battery...

On my last pop-up, this kept me going for a little while longer; but mainly it kept my battery fully charged while parked.

I got my 5watt panel for $30, so I guess I could get another one to up the wattage a bit more.

I suspect your system is a  "real" solar system in the >80watt range?  

oilspot

03-20-2003, 12:23 PM

Just wanted to post an update:

I finally installed my 5 watt panel last weekend.  In retrospect I think I should have gotten a second panel to make a 10W system, but I'm going to see how things work first.

Installation was a breeze.  I riveted the panel to alluminum channel and then urethane-glued the al channel to the roof on the extreme rear street-side corner.

Routing the wires were easy too.  The two halves overlap and with only the upper half open, you can see the front wires and coax.  I simply installed a third channel for my new wire and ran it parallel to the other wires.  

At the bottom of the upper section the wires go behind the seals.  After tinkering for a little while I gave up and tucked the wire between the folds in the corner.  After that it was a snap.  I just ran it through the same conduit on the torsion bar, and then under the trailer.  Right near the torsion bars is a cluster if wire nuts.  Two of those wires are the charging circuit for the battery (from the tow vehicle).

Now I have a cheap trickle charger and modest battery extender.

2619PDX

05-09-2003, 05:49 AM

Well. I'm finally going to do it. After doing the research, I'm taking Bruce's recommendations and am going with a minimum of the two, 80 watt panels.

I've already added two 6VDC golf cart batteries to the system for a total of 3 batteries (A model 27 12 VDC wired in parrallel to the dual golf cart string...)

I'm not putting in an inverter as I don't see the need for it in our family's case, and as I understand it, an inverter can be added later.

I'll be interested to see if it really does trickle charge up here in the winter time.

I'll of course update the post when the system fully installed.

Thanks, Bruce. I'll be in touch as I have a couple of installation questions for you.

Best,

Gregg in Portland

RockyMtnRay

05-09-2003, 03:04 PM

Please do keep us informed. I, for one, am most interested in how the two 80 Watt panels work for you. I mostly do boondock camping in Nat'l Forest and State Park campgrounds (for several days at a time) where even an electrical hookup is an unexpected luxury. Plus, because of the cold nights at 10,000 feet, I frequently need to run the furnace even in mid-summer and it really drains the battery.

Bruce

05-10-2003, 08:42 AM

Hey RockyMtnRay,
   It's good to hear of other TM boondockers out there. We love outdoor adventure, hiking and biking mostly, and our favorite places to camp are in Nat Forests, preferably near a trailhead.
   I put a catalytic heater in our TM - it just sips gas and doesn't use any electric. I think there is an altitude restriction on these things though so you may not be able to use them at 10,000 ft. (Nope, just looked up the Olympian specs in the Camping World catalog and it says they are good to 12,000 ft.) You might give it a try - they are expensive but the non polluting, non battery draining (and silent) heat they provide might  make it worth your while.
I teed into the gas line for the heater and ran a 4' section of flexible gas hose to the catalytic heater which I hung on the wall at the end of our kitchen counter in our 3124 slideout. It works well there but I have to move the chair over by the tv cabinet when I turn on the heater. I may experiment with trying to mount it somewhere else so I do not have to move the chair.
   Once we finally get a digital camera I will try to post some pictures of our solar setup. Or come by for a visit if you will be at the TrailBlazers national rally in June.

Bruce

RockyMtnRay

05-10-2003, 02:46 PM

Thanks for the recommendation, Bruce. Yeah, a tad bit pricey, but not unreasonable compared to the cost of our TMs.  :) And unlike most portable heaters, it's actually usable at the altitudes of most Colorado Nat'l Forest campgrounds (typically 8500 to 10,500 feet).

Not sure if I'll get one right away though...to avoid the almost daily afternoon summer thunderstorms...which are exceedingly dangerous if you get caught above timberline...I'm usually at the trailhead by 5:00 am for my mountain hikes/climbs.  That means I'm getting up at around 3:30 to 4:00 am so I want fast, blower spread heat from the furnace to take the chill off the air in the TM whilst I dress and prepare my breakfast (nightime temps at those altitudes usually fall into the low 30s even in mid-summer).  As you might expect, with that early a get-up time, I'm seriously needing to go to sleep in the evening before the temperature inside the TM is even noticeably coolish (relatively speaking).

Hence my interest in needing solar power...I probably use more electrical power before sunrise than I do after sunset.   ;D So I'm very interested in how other TM folk have done a solar installation and your pictures would be very appreciated.

Sorry, but won't be attending the national rally...my summer is already filled with camping plans out here in my beloved Colorado mountains. Speaking of which (and of hiking/climbing), here's a link to a shot I took last summer after a very strenuous hike/climb/scramble to the top of Mt Yale (14,196') looking SW into the sea of mountans that compose the Collegiate Peaks Wilderness Area: http://www.rockymtnray.us/images_general/collegiatepeaks/collegiatepeakswilderness_from_mtyale_06292002A_1. jpg. (My TM is in a campground some 4000 feet below this summit in the canyon you see at the very bottom of the picture :)). I climbed 6 of these "14ers" last summer and have plans to climb about 4 more of them this summer. :)

05-13-2003, 12:36 PM

We have 2-100w panels on our front roof on opposite sides.  Total extra weight is around 50lbs max.  These were installed at the factory when the trailer was built, and the wires run with all of the other wires down one side.  The controller is mounted on the side of the refrigerator next to the sofa.  We have 4-6v batteries mounted on the tongue.  We have never run out of power.  The lifters are heavy duty (factory installed), and no problem putting the roof up and down.
 One minor thing to keep in mind is that, if you wish to cover your trailer at any time, don't install panels with sharp metal corners.

2619PDX

05-14-2003, 04:57 AM

Judy:
How are your panel mounted? Did they screw the panels into your roof?

Thanks,

Gregg in Portland

05-15-2003, 11:13 AM

The panels are mounted into the roof, and sealed with a non-silicone material (the manufacturer recommends against silicone.)  These panels are top quality, made by Siemens, with all-aluminum components.  Avoid panels with plastic frame construction (except at the 4 corners).  

Bruce

05-16-2003, 02:27 AM

WOW! A factory installed solar setup. This is the first I have ever heard of. Sounds super.

Bruce

2619PDX

05-16-2003, 06:57 AM

Thanks, Judy. I share Bruce's amazement about a factory installed solar set up.

I replaced the battery last night. Put in an 8D. Now I've got plenty of reserve capacity.

05-16-2003, 12:10 PM

What is an 8D battery?

2619PDX

05-16-2003, 12:23 PM

An 8D is a very large RV size deep cycle battery. It has gobs of reserve capacity (rated for 200 amp/hr reserve at current draw of 25 amps). It was lighter (130 #'s) and cheaper than adding 3 individual batteries, and it fit's in the same space behind the LP tanks of my 2619 right in the front of the trailer.

And yes, it takes 3 men and a small boy to instal the thing... But it's worth it...

05-17-2003, 01:57 PM

Where do you purchase an 8D battery?  Is it 6 or 12v?

2619PDX

05-19-2003, 03:46 AM

Judy:
An 8D is 12 VDC. In my case, I went to one of my customers who is a heavy duty truck parts distributor, E.H. Burrell here in Portland.

As I understand it, you can also buy them from RV service centers in your area as well. Mine is an Exide Nautilus.

Gregg

Bill

05-19-2003, 12:45 PM

Can any of you folks review the sources/prices of solar panels in various capacities?  Likes somewere between 50 watts and 500 watts - what did you pay and where?

Bill

flyday

05-19-2003, 04:09 PM

Hey, Bill-
Try www.rvsolarelectric.com. They were listed in a previous thread and have complete kits to piece-meal set-ups. They also have a method for determining how many panels and batteries you should have, as well as a free catalog. I'm looking into this also but would like to keep my set-up portable. Anyway, RV Solar Electric looks like a good starting point.
Dick

2619PDX

05-20-2003, 03:36 AM

After doing this same research, I'm buying my system from Camping World and having it installed today for $1083 for two 75 watt panels and a charge controller.

This seemed to be a reasonable deal based upon what's out there, and CW does the labor.

I've met a local engineer here at Freightliner that has a solar powered home up in Northeaster Washington state. He's as close to an expert as I can find. Anyway, I reviewed all the possibilities with him, and he agreed that the CW program was a good deal.

Gregg

Chris_Bauer

05-20-2003, 06:23 AM

Gregg,

I think it is a good choice.  I have been doing my research and I can't justify sending away for the pieces, paying freight in some cases, and then doing or looking for an installer.

CampingWorld charges a little extra sometimes but in this case you go to one place for everything and they will backup their work on the installation.

Keep us posted on how your system turns out. I'm chomping at the bit to get mine.

Chris

2619PDX

05-20-2003, 06:46 AM

Chris:
Am really excited about it. Looking forward to using it this summer. CW isn't hugely more expensive when you consider all of the factors you just cited... (Which I did.)

It came down to a $150 difference which, for the labor, expertise and back up is well worth it for me!

I'm leaving in about 20 minutes to go get the trailer closed down, hooked up and bathed for it's 2:00 appt.

Gregg

Bill

05-21-2003, 01:43 AM

A little more research yesterday uncovered some pretty good prices at http://www.solar-electric.com/. It looks like a single 120-watt panel and a simple charge controller would cost about $500, while two 75-watt panels and a simple charge controller would run about $600. I plan to start with only one panel, knowing I can add another later if it is needed. I also plan NOT to mount them on the roof, but to make a small portable stand so I can put the panel on the ground.

As far as I can see, the advantages of roof mounting are that no storage space is required when travelling, no setup is required when you get to the campground, and the panels are relatively theft- and vandal-proof.

On the other hand, the primary advantage of a portable mount is that you can position the panels as needed, without having to position the whole TM. For example, for maximum sun-capture, the panel should be tilted up 30 to 45 degrees from horizonatal, and should face south. This is easy to do with a portable mount, but I suspect it is impractical in a roof-mount unless you are willing to install your panels on a tilt-mount AND park your TM facing south. So in a practical sense, you have to leave the panels flat. And if you park your TM in the shade, the output of a panel on the roof is drastically cut, but you can move your portable mount into the sun.

I'm still in information-gathering mode on this. Any other thoughts / conclusions / reasons for one approach vs another?

Bill

2619PDX

05-21-2003, 04:48 AM

What you say is true based upon the research. Up here in the Northwest, I've been told that the best way to optimize your solar panels is to point Southwest for the later afternoon sun..

Anyway, I mounted my panels on the roof. Yes, less storage problems, nothing to set up or take down, and simple.

My Camping World installation was great. These guys know how to do it, and they back your installation. For me, it was the best choice.

A single 120 watt panel may be the best choice for some. It'll be interesting to really get out and use my new 150 watt system to see how functional it is.

The system I set up is more or less a generic system for an RV. My families power needs are simple. Now we don't have to rely on shore power all the time.

Anyway, let us know what you do.

Robin

05-22-2003, 07:05 AM

We have also been considering solar panels from Camping World.  
--Where on the roof are yours installed?  
--Is there any concern about the wind on the highway wrecking anything?
--We just stepped up to TM after years of tent camping in remote desert areas.  We want to be able to dry camp as long as possible.  How long can you stay out with the 150 watt system?
--How many hours can you use your lights or start the furnace, etc.

I really appreciate all the info and help I can get on enjoying my 2720SL.

2619PDX

05-22-2003, 08:51 AM

Robin:
Had my solar panel mounted on Tuesday. They are mounted to the front roof, more or less in the front center between the awning edge and the TV Antenna.

I suggested they be run sideways across the roof. However, Camping World Tech said not to do that since it would create more of a wind problem.  Therefore they ran them lengthwise, side by side.

They added maybe 45 pounds. Pulling the front shell up is slightly harder, but not hugely so, but boy does it sit down quicker when you put the shell down.

We ran the wires down the awning side and around up into the trailer, to the charge controller. The charge controller nestled nicely underneath the swing arm right front light fixture, just above the flap seal.

Then the tech did something neat. We left a short (perhaps 3" long) pigtail teminated in a weather sealed 2 pin connector. Then he put a similar 2 pin connector on the battery. In between the two is a cable that plugs into both the battery end and the charge controller end.

When the trailer is up, the wire hangs down to the battery. When we travel, and the trailer is folded down, the wire nestles snugly on top of the front window cover (The one that says TrailManor on it...).

I'll let you know how long I can go in real world conditions later, after we've had aa chance to try it out. I know based on the research I did, (There is a very informative and helpful book out - sold by RV Solar Electric. Sorry but can't remember the exact title right now...) my system should allow us to run the lights after it's dark, the water pump and the heater over night, without stressing the system.

But so far I can report that the system is working and is charging the battery as well.

Perhaps I'll take a couple of pictures and post them here as well.

Hope that helped!

Gregg

Bruce

05-23-2003, 06:24 AM

Gregg,
  Seems like Camping World gave you a good deal at $1083 for the 2 panels installed.
  I paid $920 in year 2000 for 2 80 watt Kyocera panels, all hookup wire, charge controller, mounting brackets and which also included a free digital multi tester and shipping. Still, I had to install them myself but that was half the fun :-)
  I purchased my setup from RV Solar Electric.
  Free electric is like having a perpetual motion machine!
 
Bruce

2619PDX

05-23-2003, 06:38 AM

I hear you Bruce. You're carrying your own power plant around - literally!

Yeah, I didn't have time for the instal myself right now, and at $1,083 bucks, it was well worth it.

I checked my battery when I got home last night and got the trailer ready to go tomorrow. Sure enough, it had charged up!

FYI - all. I also installed 3 additional monitoring items, myself. First I put an analog 2" round Voltmeter on the tongue. Now I can see the battery's condition at a glance when I'm outside.

Then I installed a 2" ammeter, AND a 2" battery charge indicator (used for golf carts - looks like a typical gas gauge, but shows battery condition) I ran all three of these directly to the battery. They work great too! Now I can see from the inside my power usage and battery condition more easily than the TM light panel indicator.

I can't wait to use it!!

Gregg

Bruce

05-26-2003, 03:13 AM

  I pulled this off a web based RV newsletter. It looks like a pretty good deal on solar panels.
  I have no connection with the company.

 Bruce

---------------------------------------------------------
SIEMENS 65 WATT RV SOLAR PANEL HOLIDAY SALE
$279 to 5/29/03. Reg. $412. 2 panels for $528. It will pay for itself
with free electricity produced by a silent solar generator. No fuel
required. Take a dream trip anywhere. Call 800-222-0017.
http://rvtraveler.c.tclk.net/maaa6RbaaYcsFbc1Xnyb/
---------------------------------------------------------

Robin

05-26-2003, 03:38 AM

Gregg,

I'm nervous about the extra weight on the roof from the panels.  Do you find it much harder to open the shell now?    

Larry_Loo

05-26-2003, 03:51 AM

Bill wrote:
I also plan NOT to mount them on the roof, but to make a small portable stand so I can put the panel on the ground.  . . .
I'm still in information-gathering mode on this. Any other thoughts / conclusions / reasons for one approach vs another?
----------

One additional option you might consider is to mount the solar panel on the roof of your tow vehicle. With the panel on your vehicle's roof, you could park it in the sun and orient it in any direction you like. It shouldn't be too difficult to design a compact tilting mechanism for your panel - if you only need 10 - 15 deg. of tilt. If the panel were permanently mounted on the roof of your tow vehicle, you could even design a cover for it to streamline the wind flow over your vehicle. Or, you might attach a permanent baseplate only to your tow vehicle's roof. After parking your TM, you then mount the panel on the baseplate. Access would be simplified if you have a sunroof.

It may be more work than just mounting the panel to a stand you purchased or built, but, it may prevent the heartache of returning to your TM after a stroll and noticing its feeder wire was clipped and the panel and stand walked off. This is just an additional suggestion.  ??? ??? ::)

Bill

05-26-2003, 04:10 AM

Gregg,

I'm nervous about the extra weight on the roof from the panels. Do you find it much harder to open the shell now?Robin -
Please scroll down to May 9, 2003 and find a thread titled Fine Tuning the Lift Mechanism.

Bill

Bill

05-26-2003, 04:20 AM

One additional option you might consider is to mount the solar panel on the roof of your tow vehicle... It may prevent the heartache of returning to your TM after a stroll and noticing its feeder wire was clipped and the panel and stand walked off. You're right, Larry, I am concerned about theft, and I'm not quite sure how to handle the possibility. But on most of our camping trips, we park the TM in the campground, and then, during the days, drive our Tow Vehicle to a trailhead, for example. If the panels are mounted on the Tow Vehicle, they can't be charging the battery back at the TM.

Interesting thought for a slightly different application, though. Thanks

Bill

Sinclue

05-26-2003, 06:28 PM

Bill,

We have a single Siemens 75watt solar panel (off ebay $225 with shipping) and a charge controller from Camping World ($75).  I attached two pivoting legs that allow the panel to sit lengthwise at 36º (our approximate general latitude).  At peak output it generates just over 4amps per hour, in fully cloudy 2-3 amps per hour.  I put it up on the roof, after we set up, in an area that will be getting sunlight most of the day. I did that mostly to keep it out of the way for its protection.  Guess I don't think enough about security in other senses however.  In 40+ years of camping its never been an issue (unless you count a couple of racoon burglaries).  We typically use less than 20amps in an evening so the panel does for us nicely.  Even after two cloudy days with greater consumption the batteries came up to full charge before the end of the next (sunny) day.

Jim

2619PDX

05-27-2003, 05:23 AM

Guys:
Just got back from our Memorial Day weekend trip. To answer Robins question about the weight on the roof.

Yes, you can notice the added weight, but the front still raises just fine. It's kind of like pulling open the garage door when I was a kid... Total weight added is 40 lbs for both panels. I tried to center them on the roof section as best I could. that helps too.

Also, I drop the trailers nose at the tongue jack slightly to help pull the front section up as well.

Anyway, the system worked out great! Had no problems towing the rig with those panels on, and they didn't affect anything in the set up either.

I would recommend it to other owners! ;D

Best,

Gregg

06-05-2003, 05:24 PM

We have a 2619 and use the 75 watt Siemens RV Power kit (now avail. from Shell).  I mounted the charge controller in a plastic box, wired a 3-prong plug to the battery and pop in up on the roof after popping the trailer.  I screwed a couple of rubber feet to the bottom to keep from scuffing the roof.

The plusses of this setup:
1.  The unit is exactly the length of the bench seat so it stores very nicely inside the trailer when traveling.
2.  You can move it around and aim it at the sun when you really need those extra amps.
3.  It's pretty hidden on the roof so I don't worry that much about theft.
4.  Installation is trivial and foolproof.  I get really nervous when I start drilling into things that cost lots of money.

The negatives:
1.  Setup - you have to pull it out and put it on the roof and plug it in each time you camp.
2.  You cannot charge the unit while folded.  This would be an issue if you wanted to run the fridge fan for days on a closed trailer.

The 75 watt unit seems to be plenty for us to keep the battery up indefinately.  We don't watch a lot of TV or use the inverter (too much) so your mileage may vary.  We've spent weeks without outside power on the beach in Baja (OK, it is pretty sunny most days down there).

Good luck,
Bill.

Robin

06-19-2003, 02:20 PM

Hi Gregg - (& others with roof-mounted panels),

Are your roof panels tiltable or fixed?  

I'm still trying to decide what to do.  I missed the special sale at Camping World, so the price is higher now - until the next sale.  

David, the mechanic at the Dinuba-TM dealership in Rio Vista, sells and installs two 75-watt panels across the roof horizontally.  He runs the wiring through the cables on the street side of the TM and installs the controller box on the side of the fridge by the AC and DC outlets.  

Unfortunately, Dinuba charges a lot more than Camping World.  I know a lot of you folks out there in the ether are do-it-yourselfers, but I am mechanically challenged beyond hope.  

2619PDX

06-20-2003, 04:40 AM

Robin:
Mine are fixed. In doing the research, I've concluded that the movable frames are more expensive and require more maintenance, as compared the benefits of finding more ambient light. If I find that I need another panel, I can buy one, for about what the additional costs involved in the movable frames is...

Just my input.

Gregg

flyday

06-29-2003, 04:37 PM

Hey, Gregg=
Do you have any pics of your install? I'd like to see how others set their systems up. I was in the middle of installing mine when Tropical Storm Bill decided to wet things down around here in Biloxi. Now I have some down time to look at pics if they're available.

Or if anyone else has any pics, just email 'em to me. Thanks, y'all.
Dick

Sinclue

06-29-2003, 06:02 PM

We just returned from a week camping in the Sierras  (California).  We visited a couple of places we haven't been to in years.  In selecting sites we had more difficulty than before finding places that would get plenty of sunlight during the day.  It occurrs to me to remind people who are still considering the fixed vs. mobile solar installation to consider the places you like to visit.  If you are going to be parking your TM in the shade and your solar panel(s) are fixed then your output will be cut dramatically.  We have one Siemens 75w panel that I measured at 3.98amps in full sunlight, but only 1.1amps in the shade. Tilted at 37º it measured about 2.2amps in the shade. That is a significant drop in charging output to the batteries obviously.  Because I could move my panel I was able to get nearly 7 hours of full sun which completely recharged our batteries each day.  Fixed I would have had maybe two full sun hours. Most sites in these forested campgounds are very shady. In places where it gets hot most people want to park their units in the shade to help cooling.  While being able to tilt the fixed panel would help, it wouldn't provide as much charging power as full sunlight.  
jim

flyday

06-30-2003, 04:44 AM

Hey JP/Jim-
Do you just set your panel on the ground in a sunny area at an appropriate angle? Your point about sun vs shade is well-taken. I don't wanna park in the blazing sun for charging purposes, esp. since we don't have an inverter for running the air con. :-[ How do you connect to the TM's batteries? What size wiring did you use? This'll help me alot. Thanks.
Dick

Sinclue

06-30-2003, 02:43 PM

Dick,

I got the panel off of eBay for $225 with drop shipping direct from Siemens (a brand new panel).  I used a 50' orange powercord (14g) that I cut the ends off of. I used orange for visibility when the panel is on the ground. I had thought about using 12g, but I tested both the 12g and the 14g and the loss of power was only about .15amp.   I wired one end directly to the panel (clearly marked, easy to do) and the other end I connected to a small 7amp charge controller I got from Camping World (about $50 with discounts/sale as I recall).  The charge controller (a must) is then attached to the batteries directly with ring terminals(could be clamped) which are in the back on my rig. I did not, however, connect the green grounding wire at the controller end (did attach it to the panel's junction box for possible future use). I also attached some white rubber "feet" on each side of the frame so that I could rest it in any position without marring any surfaces.  For travel I just wrap the cord around the panel and lay it on the couch.  Last trip I propped it up against a tree in the AM and slid it onto the roof for the afternoon sun.  Its pretty lightweight so that an "old geezer" like me can handle it without any problems.  My wife had some concerns that somebody might walk off with it, but I pointed out 4 or 5 generators at campsites that were much more attractive bait than a 2'x4' solar panel.  It would only take a couple of seconds to pull up and unplug a generator and stick it in a vehicle and be gone. Hope this helps.
jim

flyday

06-30-2003, 03:25 PM

Well, Jim
It sounds as if I'm in the Ballpark. I did the same thing with a 14g extension cord yesterday. I bought a BP Solar 75W panel plus 8 amp charge controller off of ebay. I mounted the controller inside even though the lit sez it's blahblahblah-proof. We have a 3023 with the loveseat option, so rather than lose the drawers that are built into it, I built a frame out of 3/4" plywood and added it to the top of the loveseat frame. The BP panel fits nicely inside, and it "only" raises the cushion 3". When we're in a park the solar panel + wiring will be out of sight and safe from damage.

I'm going to add PVC legs to the short sides capped at both ends. They'll pivot inside of the panel and should allow me to set the panel up anywhere that's level. I'll have to devise a way to prevent the panel from blowing over, though.

Incidentally, what did you use for the feet/bumpers?

Dick

flyday

06-30-2003, 03:31 PM

Hey, Jim-
I got distracted by TS Bill blowing tree limbs around outside and forgot to ask: no problems with 50' of cord? I want to be able to set up in the sunniest spots, but am concerned about voltage drop and overheating on the 14g stuff. I was thinking more along the lines of 20-25', but would prefer 50. What is your experience?

Dick

Sinclue

06-30-2003, 04:02 PM

Dick,
I used some leftover moulding from my sailboat.  Its kind of L shaped with a rounded "bead"  (3/8' thick)that runs along the outside of the L.  Marine supply stores or online should have it.  Its made to be exposed to sunlight, saltwater, etc, but is pretty flexible.  
I tested both a 50' 12g and 14g cord.  The amps delivered to the controller only dropped .15amp(+/-) in direct sun. In heavy shade where only about 1amp is being generated (or less) that is a more significant drop.  But with a "mobile" setup shade shouldn't be as much of an issue.
And as there is, at most, some 4amps being generated by the 75w panel, overheating isn't a problem.
Your setup sounds good to me.  I should probably mount my controller inside too, but I enjoy being able to glance over occasionally and see that yellow charging light glowing brightly (and it even went to the green "full"  light a couple of days!)  8)
Jim

flyday

06-30-2003, 04:11 PM

Jim.
Thanks for all the help. One last question: how exactly do you measure amps? I've never been able to figure out where to put the probes or how to set up the multimeter. I have a Cummins digital multimeter, and have no prblems with volts or ohms. Amps I don't get. ???

Dick

Sinclue

06-30-2003, 04:28 PM

Dick,
For electrical expertise I defer to Bill (who hopefully will add to our/your storehouse of knowledge on this subject).  I have a cheap-o multimeter that reads up to 10amps.  (Most seem to only meausre milliamps).  I simply measured directly to the wire ends. I left them twist connected to the controller inputs initially so that I could do some measurements in different situations/locations.  I just removed the wire nuts to take the measurements.  At max the output is about 4amps, but remember to always be careful with this stuff.  As they say, it not the volts that will kill you, its the amps.  Even at 12v a 4amp jolt will get your attention right smartly.
Jim

2619PDX

07-01-2003, 05:44 AM

Bill, Et Al -
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but technically, Amps are the unit of measure for electrical current in a particular circuit at a given voltage through certain Ohms resistance in the wire.

1 amp would be 1 volt of current moving through 1 Ohm of resistance...

Anyway, if you have a multi-meter, you should be able to measure amps by selecting the AMP setting on the multi-meter.

Amps are really what we need to pay attention to. Our batteries will only hold so much power - AND AMPS are the current the withdraws that power. So to fully utilize your solar set up, you must understand how many AMPS you use when drawing from the battery.  Remember that the AMP rating for the given piece you use (appliance) (Lights, TV, HEATER, Water Pump... etc) times the number of minutes - hours per day you actually run (turn on) these appliances will determine your AMP HOUR draw. THIS FIGURE will tell you if you have enough battery capacity, and enough solar re-charge capacity in your panels.

You can add an Ammeter to your system to check your amp usage. Add it to the positive side of your main power (+ side of the battery) only. The Ammeter is an electrical flow meter, telling you how many Amps you are using at a given moment in time.

I installed a traditional automotive style round 30 Amp analog unit with a sweep type face dial in mine. I also have a 2" round analog Voltmeter on my tounge up near the battery.

If I'm reading these posts correctly, I think that JP measured his amps at the wire ends for his solar panels -- in full sun?

Don't grab both wires when you're doing this, as that'll get your attention real quick...

Hope that helps!

Gregg

Bruce

07-03-2003, 01:55 AM

 I'll attempt to answer a few of the questions about solar panels that have come up while we were away attending the TrailBlazer's Jubilee.
  I mounted 2 75 watt panels in a flat, fixed position on the roof of our TM. Yes,  the panels are in the shade for part of the day and I could probably realize the same total output from 1 panel by moving it out to a sunny area but there are some considerations in this approach. You would need to be around all day to move the panel as the angle of the sun changes unless you are in a totally open area in which case there is no advantage in having panels on the roof vs. moveable panel(s).
  I also did not want to deal with moving the panel around and finding a place to store it while traveling. It would be just one more thing to deal with when changing campsites.
  Our trailer is stored in a location without electricity nearby and the roof mounted panels keep the batteries charged. No fuss, no muss and no extra work.
  I carry a compass with me when we are choosing a boondocking campsite. I first check for an opening above the roof that will allow at least a few hours of sunlight during the day. With 2 panels this is enough to recharge the batteries from the previous evening's use.
I then check the compass to see where the sun's path will be. The best position is with the front of the trailer pointing north, trees on both sides for shade in the morning and evening and an opening overhead to catch the bright noon sun. Yes, that means that the site is warm during the middle of the day but that is what we have an awning for and usually we're out doing activities during that time so the lack of shade is not that big a consideration. Sometimes we have to make do with an eastern exposure - not as good because the sun is weaker in the am. An east-west orientation with a clear overhead is good for charging up discharged batteries but not as good for comfort in the afternoon because the sun can get under the awning.
  I have never heard of anyone running an air conditioner on an inverter. I do not think there is an inverter made for rv use that could feed the hungry compressor nor would you have room for the the large number of batteries and solar panels needed to run the thing. You will have to make do with 12 v. fans.
  Our solar setup runs the power from the panels down the front upper half to the hitch where it connects to the charge controller. From there it goes to the batteries mounted behind the propane bottles and then under the trailer and up through the floor to connect to the converter through the terminals for the inside battery connection. All connections except for the converter connection are outside the trailer. We just recently purchased a digital camera and I will take some pictures soon and attempt to post them here.
 
Good luck all you TM tinkerers,
Bruce Martin
 

 

Sinclue

07-03-2003, 06:51 AM

Bruce,

Definitely good points on the fixed installation.  It is one more thing to do in setup/takedown, but its only 5 minutes or less.
As we mostly boondock we don't tend to be away from the trailer all day, but if we were I could set the panel in a location where it would receive the same amount (or more) of sunlight as any fixed installation.  Plus, I don't have to work it out so that the trailer will be in the sun at all.  I can pick the best spot for the trailer when I setup, not the best spot for my solar panel(s).  

As we generally don't use more than 20amps in a day it really isn't much of an issue for us.  Our battery setup allows for over 200amps available (2@6v) so even a couple of hours of direct, or even indirect, light takes care of our needs.  

One other factor to consider that I'm not sure has been mentioned is that the amount of dirt, crud, etc that attaches itself to the solar panel has an effect on the amount of charge it will generate.  How often do you clean your panels and how easy is it to do?  At our last campsite a significant amount of pine needles and just plain dust wound up on our roof.  

But really it come down to personal preference I think. I didn't want the extra weight(and the attachment holes) on my roof sections.  I guess that many are attached with an adhesive so that would eliminate the holes mostly, but I've experienced some significant adhesive failures in projects over the years (has anybody ever gotten "SuperGlue" to work on anything?) and I'd hate to see my solar panel bouncing down the highway behind me.   :D

I agree that using any standard RV inverter to try to run AC is out of the question.  There are inverters that would do the trick, but as you point out they are large and bulky and require a significantly sized battery bank to operate.  If you are going to need AC then you'll need hookups or a noisy generator(and yes even the so-called "quiet" ones are noisy to those not using them, especially in more remote campsites where there isn't all the ambient noise that you have in the city).  As you can guess, I'm not a big fan of generators.  Hence this thread.

At any rate, fixed or mobile, we seem to all agree that solar is a good way to go and that is the real bottom line.  With all these responses those still thinking about it have pretty much all the information they need to make a good choice for their own particular needs.  I love this board!

jim

Bruce

07-03-2003, 08:23 AM

  Good to hear from you Jim, and I  definitly dig the talking heads reference!
  As far as the glue job goes I did not use super glue on the 3" X 20" aluminum  mounting feet in the center of  the roof. RV Solar Electric recommended using Liquid Nails and I have had no problem whatsoever with it's holding strength. In fact if  I ever buy another trailer and want to take  the panels off I will have to leave the feet attached and paint them white to match.
 The panels and mounting hardware have surived the infamous South Dakota Jubilee hail storm of 2000 and over 15,000 miles of camping all over the US and Canada.
  But as you say it's having the solar option that is the important point here, not how or where we mount the panels.

Burce

Sinclue

07-03-2003, 09:33 AM

Bruce,

Thanks for the heads-up on Liquid Nails.  I've used it for wood applications, but never realized it could be used in dis-similiar applications.  Guess I'll have to tell my wife that I have to spend more time in the hardware store so I can catch up on my knowledge :D  
Right!

I do like the idea of being able to keep your batteries topped off with the fixed setup.  I have to store my unit away from home so I wind up lugging the batteries back and forth and in and out.  At some 60# apiece its not the thrill it used to be.   :P

And by the time you are ready for your next TM hopefully solar technology will be even more advanced and you'll want newer panels anyway.  I was recently reading somewhere that the next generation of solar cells will generate over five times the power for the size.  So panels the size of our 75w would be rated closer to 400w...over 20amps per hour in direct sun.  Won't that be great?

jim

Bill

07-03-2003, 09:36 AM

Bill, Et Al -
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but technically, Amps are the unit of measure for electrical current in a particular circuit at a given voltage through certain Ohms resistance in the wire. [remainder snipped to fit within posting requirements] ...Gregg -

Electrical stuff is really pretty simple - but the terminology is confusing. (Keeps us electrical engineers in a job!) But for most purposes, a good analogy can be drawn between a solar electric system and a water system, where the terminology is easier to understand. Let me try this.

A water tank is the same as a battery. You can put water (or electric energy) into it - and then later, you can take that water (or electric energy) out of it. In each case, you need to know HOW FAST you are filling (or emptying) the tank, and HOW LONG you fill (or empty) it at that rate, because these things tell you HOW MUCH you put in, how much you are taking out, and how much is left at any given time.
In other words, you need to know the RATE at which you fill (or empty), the TIME which you run that rate, and the QUANTITY that you move.

The RATE at which water flows in a pipe is measured in "gallons per hour". The QUANTITY of water that moves is measured in gallons. Similarly, the RATE at which electric energy flows in a wire is measured in "amps". The QUANTITY of electrical energy that moves is measured in amp-hours.

So, for example, if you pump water into a tank at the RATE of 4 gallons per hour, and you let it flow into the tank for 6 hours, then the QUANTITY of water that you put into the tank is 24 gallons. Right? Four gallons per hour X 6 hours = 24 gallons.
Similarly, if you pump electricity into a battery at the RATE of 4 amps, and you let it flow into the battery for 6 hours, then the QUANTITY of electrical energy that you put into the battery is 24 amp-hours.

Once you have put 24 gallons of water into the tank, then you can withdraw it at any rate you choose, until it is gone. For example, you could draw 1 gallon per hour for 24 hours - or 8 gallons per hour for 3 hours - or 48 gallons per hour for 1/2 hour. Or on-and-off at varying rates, until you have used up the entire 24 gallons.
Similarly, once you have put 24 amphours of electricity into the battery, then you can withdraw it at any rate you choose, until it is gone. For example, you could draw 1 amphour per hour for 24 hours - or 8 amphours per hour for 3 hours - or 48 amphours per hour for 1/2 hour. Or on and off at varying rates, until you have used up the entire 24 amphours.
Sound tricky? Yes, certainly, until you realize that "1 amphour per hour" is the same thing as "1 amp"! So to rephrase the paragraph above, "once you have put 24 amphours of electrical energy into the battery, then you can withdraw it at any rate you choose, until it is gone. For example, you could draw 1 amp for 24 hours - or 8 amps for 3 hours - or 48 amps for 1/2 hour." In each case, you take 24 amphours out of the battery.

Did that make any sense? I hope so. In your post, you have the right picture, though the terminology (again) is confusing. What you are quite correctly saying is that if your solar panel charges your battery at 4 amps, and it does so for 6 hours of daylight, then it puts 24 amphours of energy into your battery. Later that night, you can withdraw that energy at the rate you choose. You can run a small light (2 amps) all night long (12 hours), or you can run a TV/VCR (3 amps) for 8 hours, or you can run your furnace blower (6 amps) for 4 hours. Or you can run all three (11 amps) for a bit more than 2 hours.

So in a practical sense, you need to know two things - the amount of time that the battery is being charged or discharged (this is easy, just look at your watch), and the rate at which it is being charged or discharged. To determine this, you need an ammeter. Without an ammeter, you don't know what is happening with your battery.

So your post is correct - good for you - with one minor exception. The whole system is running at 12 volts, and you can't get a shock from 12 volts. So your caution "Don't grab both wires when you're doing this..." isn't quite correct. Grab all the wires you want, you won't feel a thing.

This explanation is gaggingly long, I know, and perhaps isn't wonderfully clear, so feel free to ask more questions. I haven't done this in a long time ...

By the way, purists may take exception to certain points in the analogy. Like most analogies, it is instructive but not perfect. If you object, and would like to contact me off-list, please do so.

Bill

2619PDX

07-03-2003, 12:01 PM

Thanks, Bill. I think we've made our point.
To paraphrase a quote:
"It's the AMPS, Supid..."

No offense intended to anyone reading these posts...

Gregg

flyday

07-04-2003, 04:29 AM

Hi, defiantly uncomprehending here again ???-

SOOO, I measure amps EXACTLY the same way I measure volts and ohms, right? Just hold the little pointy metal sticky thingies to the ends of the wires or terminals(but not battery posts), spin the dial on my Wundermeter to the proper setting, and all shall be well? I must be clear on this...

Dick

RockyMtnRay

07-04-2003, 06:22 AM

Almost. Amps are a measurement of the amount of electricity that flows through the wires. Volts are a measure of the electrical pressure at some point in the circuit compared to some other point in the circuit (usually the zero or ground point). Ohms are a measure of resistance in some segment of the circuit...or how hard it is for the volts to push the amps through wires.

How to measure:

Amps: connect the meter's "thingies" so the current has to go through the meter. For instance, connect the meter between the battery post and the wire to the appliance (with the appliance turned on). Or cut the wire in half and connect the wire ends to the meter "thingies" so the current has to flow through the meter.

Volts: connect the meter "thingies" across the the thing to be measured...like between the two battery terminals, or between some point in the circuit and a known ground. Remember, you're measuring electrical pressure, not rate of flow. When you place a voltmeter between (or across) the battery terminals, very, very little current flows through the meter...you're measuring the electrical pressure between the battery terminals.

Ohms: Unhook the battery or any other source of power first!  An ohmmeter actually has its own little batttery and it determines resistance to flow by trying to push a tiny current through what you're measuring. So you hook it up sorta like the voltmeter...across the thing (appliance, wire, etc.)  you're measuring. Low readings mean there's little resistance to current flow; high readings mean there's great resistance. Wiring should have very low resistance.

Bottom line: Ohms and Volts: measure across something (stick the meter's probes ONTO two points of the circuit but NOT into the circuit); amps: measure what flows through something (must stick the meter's probes INTO the circuit).

Did that help?

Sinclue

07-04-2003, 06:36 AM

Dick,

Well, I'm not the electrical expert in the group, but I'd say you are pretty close.  I'd make sure my "wondermeter" was already set to the proper scale (that is if you are going to measure amps make sure you are set to read amps first).  Do make sure that your meter can actually read amps and not just mili-amps.  Only one of my "wondermeters" actually reads full amps.  That usually seems to take a more sophisitcated meter (although I got the one I use off of ebay for <$20).  Other than that you stick the "pointy thingies" on the same color wire...black "thingie" (usually called negative or common) goes to black wire and red "thingie" (usually called positive or hot) goes to red wire.  Just make sure, as I mentioned, that your meter has the capacity to read the maximum you would expect.  In other words a 75w panel will put out about 4amps in direct sun, two would generate over 8amps.  Just make sure your meter will read over 8amps (mine reads up to 10amps only) if you are testing two panels together.

Oh yeah, one slightly confusing thing is that we're all talking about 12v systems, but if you read the voltage from the solar panel it'll actually show closer to 19 or 20volts.  That is normal. I'll leave that to the electrical experts to explain.

Your panel should have some specs that should give you the basic information as to what readings you can expect.  If not then maybe the manufacturer has a web page with that information.

Hope this helps.

jim