Solar wanabe

[Rogregma]

We took delivery of a 2006 2027SL in Sept. after trading in our Coleman pop-up. We plan on retiring this spring and heading north from NM to Grand Teton, Yellowstone, Glacier then Canada and the northwest coast. We never did use our coleman in a Rv park and will continue to camp in the boondocks or national forest campgrounds so we will need to recharge the batteries as we will probably stay in each camp for 4-7 days. Being in the high rockies I know that we will sometime need the furnace heater even in spring/summer as well as normal light usage. I don't plan on using solar to power anything directly (yet?) just for recharging. I'll probably take a laptop that will need occasional charging. How do I figure what size of panels and associated equipment? Are there options to have the solar panels not mounted on the roof, ie carry them inside and place them where needed? Thanks.

Carver,
from the pictures you posted, did you punch a hole through the side of the TM for the electrical wires?

[Bill]

<snip> How do I figure what size of panels and associated equipment? Are there options to have the solar panels not mounted on the roof, ie carry them inside and place them where needed?Welcome to the world of solar! Rocky Mountain Ray is our resident expert, but many of us are solar-equipped, and at least a couple of us (including me) kept our panels portable. This forum contains a lot of information on the topic, including and especially on the two questions you asked. Have you had a chance to review it? Use the Search tool as some of it is probably out of place - and then get back to us if your questions aren't answered.

Bill

[RockyMtnRay]

We took delivery of a 2006 2027SL in Sept. after trading in our Coleman pop-up. We plan on retiring this spring and heading north from NM to Grand Teton, Yellowstone, Glacier then Canada and the northwest coast. We never did use our coleman in a Rv park and will continue to camp in the boondocks or national forest campgrounds so we will need to recharge the batteries as we will probably stay in each camp for 4-7 days. Being in the high rockies I know that we will sometime need the furnace heater even in spring/summer as well as normal light usage. I don't plan on using solar to power anything directly (yet?) just for recharging. I'll probably take a laptop that will need occasional charging. How do I figure what size of panels and associated equipment?

First, add up the number of lightbulbs you expect to have on at any given time, then multiply by the number of hours you will have each lightbulb on, then multiply by 2.2 amps per bulb. That will give you the daily amp-hours consumed by lighting (lights are the biggest power user). As a point of reference, I assume about 20 to 25 amp-hours daily for lighting.

Then add up the number of hours each day you expect to use the furnace...and multiply by 5 (the realistic load of furnace blower and valves). Doing mostly high altitude camping, I assume about 4 hours of furnace usage per day for a total of 20 amp hours.

The water pump and other misc circuits use very little.

A laptop will take around 15 to 20 amp-hours to recharge, assuming a typical laptop battery and 50% inverter efficiency. A cellphone or camera will need around 5 to 10 amp-hours to recharge, again assuming 50% efficiency.

All in all, I use 50 to 60 amp-hours each day if I'm not being frugal. Maybe half or 2/3 of that when frugal.

My 170 watt solar array puts out about 11 amps in full, mid day, sun pretty much directly overhead, summer sunshine. To keep my TM batteries full recharged every day, I therefore need about 5 hours (55 amp-hours) of full overhead sunshine (no clouds, no shadows from tree branches, etc.). Even a thin overcast reduces that by about half; thicker clouds (or even a few shadows from tree branches) reduce the output to around 1 amp.

So...if you only camp in very sunny campsites (no shade at any time) and can count on each day remaining totally cloud free all day long, you probably can get by for several days with a solar array that puts out 100 to 150 percent of your expected daily demand. In a more realistic scenario, you should plan for clouds and not having full sunshine all day (because of tree shadows, etc.)...especially in often cloudy or heavily forested areas like the northwest coast. I'd therefore recommend going with an array that, if it were in full sunshine all day, puts out 300% to 400% of your average daily demand. Or, in other words, something in the range of a 200 to 250 watt rating.


Are there options to have the solar panels not mounted on the roof, ie carry them inside and place them where needed? Thanks.

There are no manufactured options...crafting a suitable portable array is going to solely depend on your ability to design and make a suitable mount and wiring harness. Keep in mind that solar panels are both very expensive and quite fragile...you probably won't want to just lay them on the ground in some sunny spot. Especially some spot where somebody could easily walk away with them. Futhermore, a decently powerful (~200 watt) array is not small either...you'll be looking at 2 or 3 panels...each of which will be around 5 feet long and about 2 feet wide and weighing around 40 to 50 lbs. And each will need a padded carrying case to prevent damage. (see pic below of how much of my TM's roof a 120 watt and 50 watt panel take up). That's the main reason most of us who use solar have permanently mounted the panels on the roof. OTOH, if you like (or have) to camp in the shade under trees, then a portable mount that lets you move the panels to a sunny campsite spot is the only workable method.

[Caver]

I'll be happy to send you more photos of our solar installation. I use RockyMtn Ray's mounting technique by using adhesive to attach the aluminum mounting pads. The wire runs through a conduit on the outside of the TM. No holes! This is a stick-on plastic conduit which gets the wire down to the rear torsion bar arm where it's attached and goes under the TM. Mine comes up through the floor near the tub and converter where the charge controller is located.

I don't think solar is for everyone but it works for me. I would be concerned about theft and damage with moveable panels but there are several TM owners that have taken that approach. This is essential if you always camp in the shade.

How many solar panels? How much battery? As you read the posts you can see some our our respective experiences. You might consider a modest size solar installation under 200 watts and have a small Honda generator for those cases where you have several days of bad weather or have to camp in the shade.

That will be a great trip in the TM. Ray

[rotor_wash]

The best thing solar has going for it is you won’t be tied to camping in places that have electricity. Some of the best western camping (especially Colorado) can be found in primitive National Forest campgrounds with no electrical, sewer, or H2O hookups. Water comes from a hand pump, toilet facilities are the old vault style, and given enough sunlight you will have plenty of electricity for lights and furnace operation. The larger, more private sites as well as the scenery make it all worthwhile. No generator noise either!
Some considerations:

1. Battery storage. Many of us use two Trojan 105 225 Amp Hour 6VDC golf cart batteries wired in series. Great storage capability and they seem to handle the deep cycle workout we give them. Disadvantage is the ~150 lb weight penalty. Keep in mind where you put them and how it affects your tongue weight. http://www.trojan-battery.com/Products/ProductSpec.aspx?Name=T-105
2. Solar panels. Still very expensive. You can place two smaller ones on the roof to help balance the shell when you put it up or take it down. Your torsion bars will still require adjusting to handle the 40 to 70 pounds of additional weight. Plenty of formulas out there to figure the size panel you will require.
3. Controller. I recommend a MPPT (Maximum Power Point Tracking) type that uses a tapered charge as opposed to the on-off style. These will also take the higher rated voltage producing panels and trade off the excess voltage to increase amperage for battery charging. If your panel is producing 17.5 volts, the MPPT controller will convert (with minimal loss) the excess voltage to increased amperage for more efficient (read smaller panel) charging. I use a 100W panel that has one extra row of cells to give it as much as 21.5VDC capability. Supposedly that converts to 4.54 amps that the controller can boost to 7.5 amps. Realistically, I see 4-6 amps on a good day. Still very good for a 100W panel. http://www.amsolar.com/sunrunner100-22.html
4. Roof attachment. Ray has it down. http://www.trailmanorowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1034&page=2&pp=10 I modified his retaining the larger footprint with countersunk tapered head bolts protruding upwards to secure the panel legs. On half I used his adhesive solution (Locktite Depend) and on the other half I used 3M VHB tape because my panel came with it. No problems with either. http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/!ut/p/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Q9KzYsPDdaP0I8yizeIt_By0S _IcFQEAIje0Z0!
5. Wiring. I ran mine down from the roof following the air conditioner power cable attached to the lift support. You will need UV resistant cable that is flexible enough to handle the repeated bending of set up and takedown. Creativity required when running your wiring from there.

Solar is definitely worth the effort and cost if you desire to get a little primitive. If the KOA is as rough as it gets, I wouldn’t waste the money.

[PopBeavers]

I keep reading everything I can find on solar and so far I have concluded that a Honda generator is still the best way to go. It is cheaper than solar and is independent of the weather and time of year. I don't think I could carry enough solar panels to meet even modest needs on the foggy California coast in January.

I will admit that I do need to either extract gas from the TV or carry some extra. So far it appears that I need to carry about one pint of gasoline for each day beyond the first two days. Backpacker fuel bottles work well. Solar would be a good choice for boon docking more than a week as that is probably as much gas as I am willing to stockpile.

What I want is a solar system that will meet my power needs at a cost less than the purchase price of the generator. Solar appears to me to be cost prohibitive. Sorta like buying a hybrid car. The ROI just isn't there (yet). Maybe some day.

I may experiment one of these days. but that would be more of a hobby than a serious commitment.

[RockyMtnRay]

I keep reading everything I can find on solar and so far I have concluded that a Honda generator is still the best way to go. It is cheaper than solar and is independent of the weather and time of year. I don't think I could carry enough solar panels to meet even modest needs on the foggy California coast in January.

I will admit that I do need to either extract gas from the TV or carry some extra. So far it appears that I need to carry about one pint of gasoline for each day beyond the first two days. Backpacker fuel bottles work well. Solar would be a good choice for boon docking more than a week as that is probably as much gas as I am willing to stockpile.

What I want is a solar system that will meet my power needs at a cost less than the purchase price of the generator. Solar appears to me to be cost prohibitive. Sorta like buying a hybrid car. The ROI just isn't there (yet). Maybe some day.

I may experiment one of these days. but that would be more of a hobby than a serious commitment.
The major advantage, IMHO, of solar over a generator is it functions unattended. On most of my camping expeditions, I use my TM exactly as my signature indicates: as a base camp. Most camping days, I leave the trailer in the early morning (often before dawn) and spend the entire day in the backcountry hiking, biking, or kayaking and return to the trailer in late afternoon or early evening. While I'm away, the solar panels silently and without being monitored will usually completely recharge my TM's batteries.

A generator, by contrast, should never be left running if you're away from a campsite. For one thing, it's illegal in most federal and state campgrounds to do so, and it's certainly bordering on wanton negligence even if not illegal. At the safe 20 to 25 ampere recharge rate of deep cycle T-105 batteries, it will take at least 2 to 3 hours to fully recharge my batteries from their normal daily drain if I were to use a generator to perform the task. Even if the generator/converter can output more than 25 amps into the batteries, a recharge rate above 25 amps will definitely shorten the battery's lifespan so 25 amps is the most that should be used.

For those who spend at least 2 or 3 hours in camp every day, that wouldn't be problem. But for those of us who don't...or seldomly do...stay at the campsite this long each day, it would be a major inconvenience to be unable to leave the campsite until the generator had finished recharging the batteries.

And then there's the noise issue. Running a generator...even a very quiet one...in the evening tends to severely annoy those (like the tent campers) who come to the wilderness to hear only the sounds of nature. I'm highly sympathetic to those who don't want to hear an engine running...I have very sensitive hearing and can hear even a quiet Honda generator halfway across a large campground. There's no way I could stand to have one running for 2 or 3 hours right outside my TM.

Now admittedly I can and do choose campgrounds and campsites where I have about a 95% chance of having at least 4 to 6 hours of bright sunshine on my panels each and every day. I don't camp between October and April and have very limited experience with concepts like "cloudy day" or "foggy". :) So given that usability level, solar provides an excellent return on investment for me given that my complete solar system (panels, controller, wiring) was roughly equal in cost to a EU2000 and requires zero maintenance over its expected 20+ year lifespan (a generator must have periodic maintenance). And since I mostly camp in climatic conditions where an air conditioner is superfluous, the only thing a generator can arguably offer me that solar can't is the ability to power a microwave oven (though with a high power, pricey inverter, I could do that as well using the batteries). And even I have a hard time justifying spending around $1000 just to be able to quickly nuke some foods a couple of times a day.

So in direct contrast to PopBeavers, for me a generator has a much, much lower ROI than do the solar panels I installed.

[Rogregma]

Thanks for all of the replies to my post.
I understand the reasoning for mounting the panels, but if they are fragile...
We often go to Platoro, CO (west of Alamosa) along the conejos river, its 25 miles of washboard road before we get to one of the campgrounds. Will this be a problem for the panels (assuming they are mounted as RockyMtnRay suggests)?
If weight is a problem for portability does that mean they have to be balanced on the roof?

I also forgot to mention that I got the TM at the CarShow in Colorado Springs so it came with dual batteries installed.

[RockyMtnRay]

Thanks for all of the replies to my post.
I understand the reasoning for mounting the panels, but if they are fragile...
We often go to Platoro, CO (west of Alamosa) along the conejos river, its 25 miles of washboard road before we get to one of the campgrounds. Will this be a problem for the panels (assuming they are mounted as RockyMtnRay suggests)?

The panels are fragile in the sense that they're mounted on a lightweight aluminum frame and covered by a thin layer of glass. Hence they're not particularly resistant to twisting forces (from being carried around) nor to being struck (if used as portable devices and not properly padded when transported). They do seem to be fairly resistant to hail though...at least the smaller stuff (less than half inch diameter).

But if securely mounted on the roof (as I and others have done), they seem to be very resistant to road vibration and the shock of washboard roads.

However, I suspect that regularly traversing 50 miles of roundtrip washboard road in/out of Platoro is going to be much more troublesome for other parts of your TM, in particular the shell latches. You'll find that with every bump...and I do mean every bump...both shells on your TM will bounce up and down. Sooner or later that bouncing will cause one or more of the corner latches to disengage and possibly even cause the latch attachment screws to literally pull out of the very thin aluminum skin or interior tubing (do a search on "corner latches"). I've taken my TM over somewhat bumpy. washboard roads here in Colorado exactly twice...once for a 10 mile round trip into Sylvan Lake State Park (near Eagle) and once for 18 miles round trip to the Araphoe Bay CG in the east side of Lake Grandby (near Grandby). Both times...even traveling at only about 20 mph...I could hear and see the shells bouncing every time the wheels hit a pothole or washboard bump and I arrived both times with at least one corner latch disengaged. The trip into Sylvan (not really all that bumpy a road) also caused the suspension to fully deflect which in turn severed the wires to the curb side trailer brake. Plus all that bouncing effectively causes the shells to act like a giant bellows and suck a lot of road dust in around the bottom seals. I am now extremely hesitant to use campgrounds that are more than a couple of miles from a paved road.

If weight is a problem for portability does that mean they have to be balanced on the roof?

The panels don't necessarily have to be balanced (side to side) on the roof, but they will necessitate substantial adjustment to the adjustment screws on all 4 of the applicable shell's torsion bars. That basically means that after each adjustment, you'll need to raise & lower the shell the panels are mounted on a number of times to insure the shell rises and descends evenly from side to side and front to rear with neither too much lift or too little lift. It's not hard but is rather tedious to get right. After I mounted my panels (total weight around 40 lbs) on the door side of my TM's front shell, I probably spent the better part of an hour tweaking the pre-load on that shell's 4 torsion bars until I was satisfied that each corner had just enough but not too much lift tension.

I also forgot to mention that I got the TM at the CarShow in Colorado Springs so it came with dual batteries installed.
Good. When I got mine from the CarShow, they weren't routinely doing that so I had to retrofit it with a larger battery carrier and the dual batteries.

[rotor_wash]

As far as wash boards go, I regularly travel the Eleven Mile Canyon Road camping at Spillway Campground, CO. That's 22 miles round trip of nasty washboards (but great Gold Medal fly fishing). Anything that could come loose, including the stove, has ended up on the floor. No problems with the solar panel though. Great testament for RMR's mounting system and the inherent toughness of the panel. I spend up to 3/4 of daylight fishing while my batteries charge themselves unattended. In fact they are currently in the sun and are at peak capacity thanks to my panel and controller. I just have to occasionally check H2O levels in the battery. Since I use Water Saver caps and keep batteries at full charge, that’s only about every 90 days.

I have no need for a generator unless for some strange reason I see the need to start bringing a microwave and inverter along. Still hate generator noise, but have admit the new generation of quiet but powerful models when properly shielded are nowhere near as bad.

As far as hail, I have dents in the shell that had to come from hail in excess of one inch in diameter. Not a mark on the panel.

Greg

[Rogregma]

Caver and RockyMtnRay:
from the pictures you've posted it looks like Caver put your panels on the rear shell and RMR on the front shell, true? Is this because of the location of your batteries or someother consideration?
I had the dealer mount a rear trailer hitch so that we could carry two mountain bikes. They said that the bikes would not upset the TM balance but since my batteries are in the rear and if I put the panels (2) on the rear shell would that be too much weight at the back end of the TM?

[Bill]

I'm not an expert on this issue of weight and balance - I'm not sure anyone on this board is a true expert. But after a lot of exposure to the issues, my take is this.

By design, the tongue weight of a TM is 13-14% of the total weight, as seen in the specs on the TrailManor web site. ("Tongue weight" means weight as measured on a scale, when the TM is NOT hooked up to a tow vehicle.) Your goal is to maintain that weight distribution ratio when your TM is ready for the road.

So, get your TM ready for the road in your preferred configuration. In other words, add factory options (awning, TV antenna, cabinets, etc), add all your stuff (clothes, food, water in the tanks if you plan to carry it, propane, bedding, appliances, dog food, video tapes), add bikes, and add upgraded batteries. When you pull onto the scale, set the solar panels in your chosen location (rear shell roof? front shell roof?) Weigh everything again (total weight and tongue weight), and see if you have maintained the original weight distribution. If so, your loading (including solar panel location) is good.

If the tongue weight is too high or too low (as a percentage of the total weight), you need to move something forward or aft in order to restore the balance. You could shift that mahogany gilt-framed portrait of Aunt Emma from the niche above the fireplace to the empty spot in the Portrait Hall - or you could move the solar panels from the roof of the front shell to the roof of the rear shell. Or, if you really want the solar panels to stay where they are, you could carry those cases of fine French wine on the sofa, for example.

In all seriousness, I hope this helps.

Bill

[rotor_wash]

Actually I'm a very frequent user of weight and balance forms and computations. I have a rather involved Excel spreadsheet using measurements from my 3124KS. It was designed so I could weigh the trailer empty and adjust weights as required and still know the Center of Gravity (CG) and hitch weights. Unfortunately .xls cannot be attached to the forum. I can send it by email.
Greg

[RockyMtnRay]

Caver and RockyMtnRay:
from the pictures you've posted it looks like Caver put your panels on the rear shell and RMR on the front shell, true? Is this because of the location of your batteries or someother consideration?
I had the dealer mount a rear trailer hitch so that we could carry two mountain bikes. They said that the bikes would not upset the TM balance but since my batteries are in the rear and if I put the panels (2) on the rear shell would that be too much weight at the back end of the TM?
Edit/Delete Message
Although my batteries are in the back (actually in part because my batteries are in the back) I mounted the panels on the front shell so that at least part of their weight would be carried by the hitch and the CG of the trailer would therefore be shifted slightly forward to improve sway resistance.

Furthermore, like you, I have a 2720SL and I didn't feel there really enough room to mount a 120 Watt panel on the roof of the rear shell (IIRC, Caver has a 3023 which has a longer rear shell roof when closed up).

Finally, because I have the SL version, the off-door (street) side of my TM is much more heavily loaded due to the presence of the fresh water tank, water heater, & toilet as well as the refrigerator on that side. When I had my trailer weighed before panel installation (but with the refrigerator, fresh water and water heater filled), the load on the street side tire was about 300 lbs more than the load on the curb side tire (water is remarkably heavy stuff). That's a fairly significant imbalance. Thus I put the panels on the curb side of the trailer (and also later had an awning installed) to help even out the side to side balance. By being able to use most of the length of the longer front shell roof, I was able to align both of my panels along the curb side edge of the roof.

And although my panels are on the front shell roof, the cable is routed to the rear of the shell and then down along the rear lift arm of the shell. Hence the cable from the panel arrives under the trailer near its center and did not have to be run any significant distance before I could bring it up into the bottom of the rear storage area.

Given that you will be carrying bikes aft of the rear bumper...and have two heavy batteries in the rear compartment, I'd strongly suggest you mount your panel(s) on the front shell to help neutralize the effect of having additional weight behind the axle. I suspect you may very well have some noticeable proclivity for sway if you have bikes, batteries, and panels all mounted behind the trailer axle.

[Bruce]

I have had solar panels on our TM since 2000 and have been pleased with them when boondocking. However, so many campgrounds today are being converted over to electrical hookups that there are fewer places to fully utilize the solar option. Also realize that campgrounds without electric hookups will be the ones where your neighbor maybe running a noisy generator.
I did a simple hookup with the panel output going to a charge controller mounted on the A frame and then to the batteries I had mounted on a custom made tray behind the horizontal propane tanks. From the hitch mounted batteries I ran a wire underneath the TM and up to the interior battery which in our trailer is located under the countertop and behind the furnace. I didn't feel I needed a fancy charge analyzer - I just use the basic charge indicator inside the TM.
My 2 Kyocera 80 w. panels are mounted on 4" X 6" aluminum feet at each corner and glued to the front half of the TM roof with Liquid Nails. IMHO there is no need to special order any high tech 2 part adhesive; Liquid Nails works just fine and allows some set up time to get things just right.
I converted most of our inside lighting over to flourescent and also installed a catalytic heater although this was probably overkill since we use the furnace so infrequently.
Here is something I wrote about my solar setup years ago that maybe be helpful to you.

Bruce Martin

Re: Solar Panels on TM??
I'll attempt to answer a few of the questions about solar panels that have come up while we were away attending the TrailBlazer's Jubilee.
I mounted 2 75 watt panels in a flat, fixed position on the roof of our TM. Yes, the panels are in the shade for part of the day and I could probably realize the same total output from 1 panel by moving it out to a sunny area but there are some considerations in this approach. You would need to be around all day to move the panel as the angle of the sun changes unless you are in a totally open area in which case there is no advantage in having panels on the roof vs. moveable panel(s).
I also did not want to deal with moving the panel around and finding a place to store it while traveling. It would be just one more thing to deal with when changing campsites.
Our trailer is stored in a location without electricity nearby and the roof mounted panels keep the batteries charged. No fuss, no muss and no extra work.
I carry a compass with me when we are choosing a boondocking campsite. I first check for an opening above the roof that will allow at least a few hours of sunlight during the day. With 2 panels this is enough to recharge the batteries from the previous evening's use.
I then check the compass to see where the sun's path will be. The best position is with the front of the trailer pointing north, trees on both sides for shade in the morning and evening and an opening overhead to catch the bright noon sun. Yes, that means that the site is warm during the middle of the day but that is what we have an awning for and usually we're out doing activities during that time so the lack of shade is not that big a consideration. Sometimes we have to make do with an eastern exposure - not as good because the sun is weaker in the am. An east-west orientation with a clear overhead is good for charging up discharged batteries but not as good for comfort in the afternoon because the sun can get under the awning.
I have never heard of anyone running an air conditioner on an inverter. I do not think there is an inverter made for rv use that could feed the hungry compressor nor would you have room for the the large number of batteries and solar panels needed to run the thing. You will have to make do with 12 v. fans.
Our solar setup runs the power from the panels down the front upper half to the hitch where it connects to the charge controller. From there it goes to the batteries mounted behind the propane bottles and then under the trailer and up through the floor to connect to the converter through the terminals for the inside battery connection. All connections except for the converter connection are outside the trailer. We just recently purchased a digital camera and I will take some pictures soon and attempt to post them here.

Good luck all you TM tinkerers,
Bruce Martin

[Bill]

Bruce -

A quick question. Liquid Nails makes a dozen different products. Do you happen to recall which one you used?

Thanks

Bill

[Rogregma]

rotor_wash clued me into this great site. http://amsolar.com/
They use 3M VHB double-sided tape to anchor the panels to the roof. rotor_wash told me that he has had good performance from this method.
I'm ready to order my panels as soon as the weathers warms up a little more.

[rpcoombs]

My TM 2720SL solar installation has four 60 watt BP solar panels (240 watt total) mounted on the rear shell using an RV Power Products 2000E Controller charging two "golf cart" batteries. I have had no weight balance towing problems. Just do it!!! Cheers, Dick

[Bruce]

What kind of Liquid Nails did I use?
Well Bill, I certainly didn't use the kind for pressure treated lumber or the formulation especially for foam board :-)
All kidding aside, I just used the standard Liquid Nails, aka construction adhesive. It was recommended by RV Solar Electric, the company that sold me the panels and hookup accessories.
Those are about the only kinds I am familiar with.

RPCOOMBS you certainly have some solar array on top of your 2720! With that much power you could probably plug into the 30 amp box and sell the surplus back to the campground!
Did you have to make a major adjustment to your torsion bars?
I had to tweak mine some to counterbalance the extra weight.

[rpcoombs]

Hi Bruce, it did take a tweak or two of the torsion bars but (as with all balance systems) I can (63 years young and out of shape) still "get it up"!! E-mail me at [email protected] if you need further details. Cheers, Dick