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oilspot
05-31-2002, 11:01 AM
My wife and I have been looking for a TM for a while, and finally found one to "tour."  We really liked the floor plan, but found a lot of worn or broken items that needed repair.

It was a 1998 TM 3124KS with few options (awning, a/c, spare tire)  So I figured it would be a real bargain.  NADA said retail price between ~$11,000 and ~13,000, but since it was a fixer-upper I figured something below retail would be fair.  They had obviously taken it in trade and didn't know what they got themselves into.

Sorry for the long post, but here is my question.  They said they had $13,900 in it (which I think is a lie) and would take no less than $12,500.  What do you think would be reasonable?

I told them it had too much damage to offer such a premium price.  They actually admitted that some of the damage to the shell (crushed corner) happened on their lot (as if that would change the nature of the damage).
A lot of the lift mechanism bolts were either loose or missing.  The hold down clamps were stripped.  The bathroom door, main door and many cabinet door hinges were bent or misaligned.  The velcro was peeling off the walls.  The rear top was wavy and bowed out near what I would call the side quarter.  The carpet showed hard wear and needed to be replaced.

All this in about 10-minute inspection.  I could not check the appliances or electrical system, brakes, etc.

I offered $9,000, as-is and left my number.

Any advice or feedback would be appreciated!!  I'd like to think this is not normal for a TM, despite the salesman's assertion otherwise.

Happytrails
05-31-2002, 03:10 PM
LOL, welp......nobody else responded, I guess I should.....crushed corner.......? It would depend on how bad the corner is.......TM's are constructed of styrofoam sandwiched in between aluminum. Without seeing it, I'm pretty sure you might need a whole new shell, which as I know for a fact, costs around 8,000 bucks. LOL, I'm pulling off a real number with my old TM, but dunno if I could pull that one off to be honest.....you're best bet is to take a few pictures, and send them into trailmanor to Jimmy Davis, he could tell you for sure. Mine's a 1986 old one, but everything inside is in top shape....I've got NONE of the problems your describing except the latches to hold it down.....as you read this board, that's kinda common, only in my case it's because of rotten wood underneath. 9,000 is probably a LOT more than you need to pay for this unit. The reason I say this is not only do you have a problem with the "crushed corner".......You're saying the rear top is wavy.......which means they left it open for years and years, and "what I'm gathering" anyway.....you've got a problem with the side being bowed out........I take it that it's around the pocket stops....where the travel arms go into the trailer. This however is a common problem from what I've gathered, one of which I have myself, but mine was from the wall and ceiling separating in the FRONT shell........I've not got that AT ALL in the rear shell........(Mine was stored however dillapitated in the closed position). I wouldn't worry at all about those bolts being loose in the travel arms, that's all they are is bolts......they can be tightened, and they're not containing any springs or anything.....mine were loose, I didn't have to, but I bought everything at my local hardware store to replace them all at about 3 bucks apeice just cuz my old ones were a little rusty, but still after all these years functioning. not knowing just how bad the crushed corner is........to be honest.......if it's pushed in more than a couple three inches, I'd tell him I looked into it, and I was looking at 8,000 to fix that, and offer him 1,000 bucks........Being as you already dropped the 9,000 offer..........You might just get away with it.......if you have separation between the corners, that's what I'd offer. (Where the wall meets the ceiling portion of the trailer). I'd say the old systems are working well, but I'd want to see how the water flows in it.......if water was left in the system, the pipes might be cracked, also check to see if the water heater is rotted out. I guarantee they don't have anything CLOSE to $13,900 in it! Their business is just like the car business, and *that* would be VERY bad business........my ex wife tried to trade in a car I paid 4700 for two years prior, they offered her 700 bucks for it for the trade in.......91 escort, clean, and NO problems........These guys are ITCHING to get rid of it.......it's a thorn in their side I'd guess...........they'd not let you know.........they're falling back on the 1998 stuff (the fact it's only 4 years old). Mine's only 14 years old, and doesn't look ANYTHING like that. The carpet is in like new condition, no hinges bent or anything like that. the fridge works...lol, depending, but will get past it I'm sure...........just the fridge will cost you 850  bucks to replace........converter, around 300-400 if it doesn't work, terlit.......not completely sure, but at least 200, ac unit, 450.00 at the least, (new and will fit if cabinet mount, a whole heck a lot more if roof mounted), water heater, 250.00, Stove/oven 350.....but they don't go bad really............You will need a good battery....at least 75 bucks.........furnace, 350 bucks or so......none of this includes installation costs btw..............anyway, hope this helps...........

Happytrails..........

oilspot
06-09-2002, 11:25 PM
Thanks for responding Happytrails!!

I'm making a list of everything I've observed and hope to discuss the trailer with Jimmy Davis this week.  With any luck he can give me an idea of how bad it is.

Another item I noticed yesterday, was the roof A/C looks odd.  I'm wondering if it was added later, by one of the previous owners.  (the power cord just dangles over the rear bed and isn't permanently wired or anything).  This could mean the torsion bars were not adjusted or replaced....  Something else to ask Jimmy about.

The dealer was closed yesterday, so I went and took lots of digital photos too, just in case anyone needs to see what I'm talking about... :o

arknoah
06-10-2002, 02:07 AM
I'm only going to comment on the rear A/C to tell you that my 2001 unit, bought new, has the cord dangling as well.  I assume that's how it is done, though other owners may have other comments.

Happytrails
06-10-2002, 11:10 AM
Feel free to send me those pics if ya like at [email protected]. I'll take a look at them, but Jimmy would be best to ask about that stuff. I do know however how to fix a lot of the structural problems. I'm almost done fixing mine and getting it on the road! You can check out what I've done at:
http://members.aol.com/br768

On a side note, somehow that doesn't surprise me about the roof ac. I think this is because of all the special wiring they would have to do because of the fact that it folds. I have discussed this in the past with a guy who installs em for $500.00 installed. He told me as there are 12v wires up there already, there are no 120v wires, so a lot of fancy wiring has to be performed because of the fact that it folds up, and it's very dangerous because if something gets rubbed, it might cause a fire. He said he charges an extra 100-200 extra to install them on Colmans because of this fact. Anyway, hope that helps!

Happytrails.........

Larry_Loo
06-11-2002, 02:35 AM
Oilspot,
I myself would be extremely wary about purchasing this damaged 1998 3124KS if I were you. It appears to me that this TM was damaged in some kind of an accident. At any rate, from your extensive list of visibly damaged areas that were apparent to you in a 10 minute inspection, you can be assured that there are other, inconspicuous damaged parts that you didn't see during this brief time. Because of their folding mechanisms, TrailManors are more complex than conventional trailers. This means that they not only are more expensive to build but also more expensive to repair (if one hires professionals for the repairs). Although used TMs are more expensive than ordinary trailers of the same vintage, this TM appears to be way, way overpriced! If you enjoy doing the repairs yourself, I would agree with Happytrails that $1,000 is a reasonable offer to make. If you don't wan't to or can't do the repairs yourself, you might consider walking away from this purchase. Having professionals make the repairs would not only cost you a princely sum of money but also months of waiting until the repairs are completed. Be patient, keep on looking around, and you'll eventually find a TM in good condition, at a reasonable price.

By the way, we purchased our 1999 3124KS, in very good condition, for less than your dealer's asking price for this damaged one. You just need to look around and perhaps consider TMs for sale in other parts of the U.S. >:( ???

oilspot
06-11-2002, 05:52 AM
Wow Larry!

Thanks for the great advice.  You really found a 1999 version for less than $12,500?  That's encouraging.  I have the dealer talked down to $10,500, but I still think it is too expensive...

Last night I went through it again and found a damaged wheel well (likely from blowout).  The previous owner had gooped lots of RTV silicone on the seams but there was clear evidence of water infiltration.  I informed the dealer about this damage and he still wouldn't budge on the price.  So now it is a waiting game.  I guess I'll keep looking for a 3124KS, since we really like the floor plan.  Maybe there is one out there that needs less work.

Thanks again for all the support.  This board is great!

06-11-2002, 05:55 AM
I too agree that this seems to be bad deal. I am just learning about Trail Manors, only purchasing mine last week.

However, I did do what my wife would call an insane amount of research in finding a good deal on a TM.

I found a '98 2720SL from a dealer about 80 miles from home and paid thousands less then your $9000 offer. For this price the dealer repaired quite a few items. This dealer also had the TM on his lot for 1.5 years.

The way I did this was to create a web page, that had links to all the newspaper and private classifieds RV or campers section.  This page linked all the papers in about a 200 mile radius of my home.  I found my TM in the Thrifty Nickle online in Ocala, FL.

If you would like I can help you set up a web page like it.


Unless you can get this TM for nothing, and like a big project like Happytrails has, I would walk away.

Larry_Loo
06-11-2002, 11:56 AM
Oilspot,
Our 1999 3124KS cost us $12,780 plus tax and license fee. It came in good condition. Within a year's time I had to change the velcro hooks on the walls, buy a new battery and fix one of the front shell's holddown locks - wear and tear tasks. I recently finished modifying the square-cornered wheel wells to rounded wells and installed a second lock on the upper half door. Happytrails' observations about pocket stops made me wonder whether or not we have missing pocket stops on our front shell. I'll have to look into that. I think that TMs require more maintenance than conventional trailers because of their folding feature - for most of us, however, it's worth the maintenance to have a trailer that tows almost effortlessly! So you see, even if you purchase a new TM, you can count on doing some maintenance jobs on it within 2 or 3 years.  

One of the web sites that used to have a lot of TrailManors listed was "RV Trader Online." In the past I found that this site might have as many as a dozen TMs listed (many used) in various parts of the U.S. It may be worthwhile for you to search this site from time-to-time as well as others that David Lee might suggest. The url of RV Trader is:

http://www.rvtraderonline.com/index.html

After you get to its home page, click on "Search" in the column at the left of the page. Then type in TRAILMANOR (all capitals worked best, I found) in the blank field for "Manufacturer." Click on the button "Begin Search" without filling in any of the other fields. This afternoon there were 2 TMs listed - one is a 1999 30' TM (probably a 3023) in Florida and an older model. The ad for the 1999 3023 instructed you to phone the dealer for the price.

We all wish you success in finding a good TM at a reasonable price!

Happytrails
06-11-2002, 05:05 PM
Well said Larry. I for one can tell you RV shops not used to the TM would keep it months while one waits on repairs....been there done that. For real Oilspot, I'd just tell him flat out you've done your homework on this, and your offer is $1,000 FIRM.........might take him another year to sell it, and it may not be you he sells it to, but that's what he's gonna get outta it unless he fools someone into taking it. Larry, as new as yours is, I doubt you have a pocket stop problem. that's what keeps your top up...if your pocket stops were bad, when ya opened it, your clam shells would fall where you have a rather large gap like 3 feet between the lower and upper shell where you'd be looking at the sky. (That's what mine was doing, tho it stands up good now on just two, other two going in this weekend probably). I'm thinking yours might just need to be "shimmed" up..........and yup, I'll post pics soon of the stops (well bumpers anyway) and shims I got from TM yesterday........To throw a good word towards Trailmanor, they could have charged me 15 bucks or more for the shims, and rubber bumpers, knowing I wouldn't know the exact size or whatever, they only charged me like $3.50 for 4 bumpers, a bunch of shims, and a door catch, heck the shipping charge was more than what they sent me....and as I ship stuff every day in my business, it was pretty much right on with the shipping.  (the "handling" part of the deal that most people can't understand). Point being, they are a great company...hands down! Anyway, if you'd like to send me a pic or two Larry, I'd be happy to look at it and see what's going on........Oilspot, drop your card, with $1,000 written on the back, and tell them flat out you've done your homework.........you're looking at a going rate of 50 bucks an hour to fix it, JUST FOR LABOR. I really think you're being suckered by the typical "used car pitch"....or at least they're trying. Again, this thing's been sitting on their lot for a long time, and they don't know ANYTHING about it. Keep that upper hand........Just walk in, throw your card down, with your $1,000 offer on the back, and walk away........if they want to sell, they will. If they say no, that's fine...tell them "Well, I can probably tear it down and make a car hauler outta  the frame".......don't bull**** around with em. Like Larry said, for everything you did see, there's probably a LOT you didn't see.............Don't let em fool ya.....ok?


Happytrails........

oilspot
06-12-2002, 02:12 AM
I really appreciate all the great advice and support this message board has provided.  Without this board I would not have known where to look for all these issues and what common issues to worry about (and which ones to accept).

Jimmy Davis thought the corner damage was more cosmetic than structural, but water damage could still be an issue.  Some of the lift mechanism issues could be complicated and related to the door problems.... In Jimmy's words "you adjust one thing and then something else needs adjusting too"

Here is the final list I provided to the dealer, with an offer for $9,500 (including a $250 Reese weight dist. hitch).  

-Damage Wheel Well requires repair and resealing
-Damaged Nose (front corner) requires repair & resealing broken corner seam
-Broken Radio Antenna needs replacement
-Misaligned/Broken Exterior Door Hinges
-Repair or Replace worn carpeting
-Replace Deep Cycle Battery
-Repair and Replace Velcro Throughout Trailer
-Misaligned/Broken Interior Door Hinges (bath door, cabinets, etc)
-Repair or Replace Screws/Bolts on hold downs, lift mechanism, and other areas
-Clean trailer, holding tanks, etc. (there is a nasty stain on the sofa!)
-Adjust Misaligned Top Half to sit level
-Replace broken latch on refrigerator
-Replace broken knobs on awning & clean awning

They told me no thanks ("I don't think we'll be doing business"), and please don't look at the trailer anymore.  I assume they asked me to stop looking, because they might be under legal obligation to disclose some of this damage to perspective buyers.  Then again he might just want to keep it quiet so he can get his $12,500 asking price.

The search for a 3124KS resumes....

2swans
06-12-2002, 04:13 AM
oilspot,
do you live near Texas? we seem to have some great deals on TM's here ::). i found ours, a 98 2720sl in brand new condition, for 7000.00. and if i hadn't gotten that one, i had found one near dallas for 8000.00. again, beautiful condition. and another just sold here in town(amarillo) for 6000.00--it was an older model-- 88, i think.seems texans don't know what these are ::). i also found some good buys on the web. listen to larry--i think he's right on ;). 2swans.

Happytrails
06-12-2002, 09:42 AM
Hmmm.....one more option. How's about getting a friend that he doesn't know to go look at it as a potential buyer, have him go through and make up the same list, and more if he can find it.......and offer the guy $7,500 for it.......LOL, he might reconsider your $9,000 offer. Find something on the web similarly priced, and just explain "he doesn't want to drive so far for it" or something like that, and would rather buy it locally. Just a thought.........I *know* he's not going to get 12+ thousand for it.........

Happytrails......

oilspot
07-17-2002, 05:15 AM
Not to beat a dead horse, but I just thought I would close out this thread with a quick observation...

As Larry Loo pointed out, a lot of the items on my original list were wear & tear items.  As I looked around at other units and read more threads on this site, I began to understand the subtle issues and maintenance demands of these trailers.

Here is my final conclusions:  The trailer wasn't really that bad.  A lot of the items on my list were not necessarily "repair" items.  Many were just characteristics of TM design per Jimmy Davis.  The dent was cosmetic, but really a minor issue.

Other trailers I have looked at have been in similar condition, but were cleaned and repaired prior to the sale.  Plus the one I eventually purchased had a 30-day warranty.  This dealer was unwilling to stand behind the trailer or reduce the price (at least one of which were required for my deal).

As a side note, I am more comfortable towing the 2720SL instead of the 3124KS.  Although I really craved the extra room (and larger water tank), it would have been another 4 feet and 300+lbs to contend with...

Perhaps in 5-6 years I'll be on the prowl again and can get one of the 2002/3 models.

Happytrails
07-17-2002, 05:04 PM
Oilspot...saw the pics, and all of that.....don't be suprised if ya run across the same TM....Again, mine's 10 full years older.....NONE of the probs you were describing....

On a side note to everyone, woke up sat morning with no real use of my right hand...pinched nerve, why I've not said anything in a while.....I'll be ok tho......and update, found a spot on match to my tow vehicle, and my insurance is gonna get it for me tommorrow. As a side note, don't EVER let an insurance company tell you ANYTHING till you're satisfied!!!!! Trust me, I KNOW that game........I simply did my homework, and told em "NO", and guess what? They are COMPLYING! And it's my own insurance company picking up the tab through "Uninsured" motorist......Guys, I deal in aftermarket and O.E. parts for a living........we talk CONSTANTLY with adjusters....IF ya find yourself in a similar situation.......simply go to two-three carlots, find a "spot on match"....which will be at least 1,000 over what they tell ya.....and tell them their offer is just COMPLETELY uacceptible.......they WILL take care of ya......On the flip side of this is I went to court today...the guy who did it caused a 4 car pileup, totalling three including his.......he walked away with being downgraded to "improper" driving, Never was charged with driving without insurance............and got a whopping $75 fine! I guess VDOT will get him. Just kinda burns my butt. No......before the lawsuit issues come up, we're talking about an old black carpenter that lives literally on crack street. Kinda feel sorry for him, In va, to get his license back.......he will have to pay back my insurance..........and the rest......

kempert
07-21-2002, 11:40 AM
Hope your hand's ok.  I wouldn't want to be the guy who has to deal with DMV (that's who you meant, not VDOT?).  I've never had any problems with DMV but have heard that the red tape can kill you.  Btw, what is a "spot on match"?

Happytrails
07-21-2002, 02:43 PM
Yeah, VDOT (Virginia Department of Motor Vehicles/transportation) or DMV.....same thing.......No improvement really in my hand....go in for an MRI 6 next month. :-/ Spot on match.....well, found a blazer almost exactly like the one I had.....with brushguard and all, same milage, within an acceptable price range, well, maybe a tad nicer than what I had.... ;) But it was reasonable, and they couldn't argue about it....and hey, it's sitting in my driveway now! (No complaints) I simply did my homework, and found a suitable replacement vehicle. The guy who owned the car in front of me didn't, and lost $1,000 when his was totalled because he took the first check the insurance company handed him. My new blazer was $5,200 and change....tax title, plate transfer etc........Had I taken the first check offered, I'd have gotten a whopping $3807.00! Had I sold my old blazer, it would have sold for right at $5,000.00, which was the asking price for the new one w/o tax, title, and all that. Out of pocket, my new blazer cost me $89.60 + $3.41 to transfer/ get a new county sticker.........so I guess I came out alright.....but since it was a year newer than my old one, I'm stuck holding the bag on another tow package.....but that's ok, got a hitch from a junkyard for $55.00, and still had to get the brake control installed anyway......just got to find a good deal on a tranny cooler now, and I'll be in business....it's got a class 2 hitch now which can't handle the TM's toungue weight, but can at least tow the boat with it as is. Overall, I'm pretty happy, my insurance is happy, and it wouldn't have been so if I'd not done my homework.....afterall, insurance companies aren't working for you.....and they don't do car shopping..........something to think about if ya get in an accident.

Happytrails........... 8)

kempert
07-22-2002, 01:35 PM
Sorry to hear about your hand.  
Thanks for the good tips on dealing with insurance companies.  It pays to do your homework.  I hope a lot of people read what you did, in case they end up in a crash.  

Happytrails
07-22-2002, 02:01 PM
Update on my hand.....ROFLMAO! I'm gonna be alright. Just take a little time. Today I took Karen up to UVA for a visit with her neroligist. I happened to ask her about it. Well she, (Karen's Doc), happens to be a very straight up, laid back, down to earth, and really nice. She knew EXACTLY what was wrong with me. I told her I had fell asleep in my chair, and woke up the next day that way. She calmly said it was the most common of paulsey's (sp). (Yikes!)................(I have a paulsy?!?!?!?), then she said she had a name for it.......was commonly referred to as "Saturday night Paulsey".......(HUH?!?) She then pretended to kick a beer back while describing the same, then pretended to pass out.......Then said next morning.....welp, ya get the picture. Karen and I were laughing our butts off so hard we were in TEARS! LOL! (Yup, that's pretty much what happened, but on a fri night! ROFL!) :-[ :-[ :D Anyway, it's nothing serious, and will come back with time. She even wrote down it's (medical) name, the test for it, and what she thought my regular doc should look for. Now is that cool or what? Anyway, I'll be ok....just stuck in the "penalty box" for a bit. I still can't help but to chuckle about it when I think about it! :D :D :D

Happytrails...................chuckling........

07-22-2002, 02:43 PM
Ok, what the heck does ROFLMAO mean Happy T. ???....I think I will have to invest in a computer abbreviaton dictionary, if there is such a thing.  :D.....Glad to hear your hand will be ok...
Red

kempert
07-23-2002, 07:56 AM
??? I have the same question as Red.  What does it stnad for?

Happytrails
07-23-2002, 11:04 AM
ROFLMAO = Rolling on the floor laughing my a** off...... ;D Don't feel bad, I still don't know what IMHO means, this board is the first place I've seen it, and I've been online 15 years!

07-23-2002, 11:51 AM
"In My Humble Opinion".......

:)

Gene
07-23-2002, 12:22 PM
What does LOL mean?

07-23-2002, 02:20 PM
LOL means Laughing Out Loud....BOY!!! I am so glad I am not the only one with these types of questions!  ;D
Red

07-24-2002, 11:59 AM
Gee, DWNTSANTTECA?

("Do We Need To Start A New Thread To Explain Computer Abbreviations" ??)

;D

(Sorry!  Couldn't resist!!!)   ;)

ROFLMAO !!!

Happytrails
07-26-2002, 12:14 PM
IMHO, lol, I guess so!  :D

Happytrails.......