snow camping

[CC_Turtle]

Hi,

Bob and B&D had a few questions about our experience camping at Mammoth Lakes California...

We camped at the RV park that is located right before you hit town.. off of 203. while we were there we got 4 feet of snow in 4 days! amazing.. the TM held up very well considering that ice and snow covered the trailer!

during the summer this park has full hookups, but during the winter they only have electric hookups.. but they have a heated area with warm showers and bathrooms.

it got very cold.. high of 30's during the day... the furnace worked good for the front end of the TM.. but we had to also use a little extra one to heat up other areas.. and to also save some propane ;D

with the heaters we got lots of consendation with turned into ice on the inside of the trailer's windows - mostly in the back where the bed is located.

none of the pipes froze or our fresh water.. just lots of ice on everything else.. camping was great but leaving was very hard.. we had to defrost all of moving parts before we could lower the TM and get all 3 feet of snow off of our roof.. didn't realize that we would have to shovel 3 feet of snow off before closing! we had to buy a small ladder and a snow shovel.. hard work! after getting the snow off the top... the TM closed fine... we tried to cheat before loweringh the first side.. we didn't get all of the snow off.. and when we pushed it down,, it closed so hard it locked into place :o

the day we had to leave it was still snowing.. i was worried about pulling the TM in the snow,, but we had to go.. since another storm was on the way! after spending hours digging our selfs out we hooked up the TM. I have a Toyota Tacoma 4x4.. even with the 4x4 we put chains on my truck and just drove slow - 25mph down the mountain.. the truck did great.. we had great traction and no slipping.. after getting down past the snow level i could pry my fingers off the steering well ;)

other things we learned:
1-fold up your steps.. very hard to get the ice and snow off of them
2-cover the hitch area.. so it doesn't get lots of ice on it
3-if it does start to snow... get the snow off the top everyday..don't let it build up!

the next day we opened up the TM and had to dry everything on the inside... considering the storm we were in.. the TM did great..

for our next time... during the very snowing seasons.. we plan on camping at Bishop - which is below the snow levels... in little snows the trailer is fine.. like big bear snow were they get inches at a time..but it was very hard getting all of that snow off of the roof before closing!

if anyone else has some experiences in snow.. would be great to read about them!

Happy New Years!
Teresa

[Paul_Heuvelhorst]

If you plan to tow a trailer in snow country, where you will have to drive on roads that have snow or ice on them, it is recommended that you put chains on 1 axle (both wheels) of the trailer, too (most TM's only have 1 axle). When you apply the brakes of your tow vehicle the trailer brakes are also activated, and the trailer wheels are more likely to lock up on icy roads than the tow vehicle. With chains, at least the wheels will "bite" into the ice and give you some controlled braking. Chains on trailer wheels are also referred to as "drag chains" because the cause the trailer to "drag" when the brakes are applied.

Travel safely.

[Bill]

I'm not sure that chains would fit, at least on my TM. There is very little clearance between the tire and the body of the trailer. However, it seems to me that there is one version of "chains" that is actually metal cables, maybe a quarter inch in diameter, that fit snugly against the tire tread. Perhaps this would work.

Bill

[G-V_Driver]

I have a request.

I will post my picture and the license plate numbers for my trailer and tow vehicle on this site. If you happen to see them and/or me on the road on any day there is any snow on the road, or that you think there is even a remote possibility for snow, or if it has snowed recently, please notify the nearest law enforcement agency immediately.

You (and they) can be sure that it is either a theft (if I'm not driving) or a hijacking (if I am driving) and you will no doubt be in line for a significant reward for helping apprehend the desparado respsonsible for the crime :)

Happy new year to all !

[Bill]

Teresa - You did a lot better with your first snow-camp than I did with mine. We were caught by a surprise blizzard in Amish country, and completely unprepared mentally for what we would experience. Funny now - not so funny then.

It got very cold.. high of 30's during the day... the furnace worked good for the front end of the TM.. but we had to also use a little extra one to heat up other areas.. and to also save some propane.Yup, an electric heater is a great thing for the back of the TM. We didn't happen to have one (but you bet we do now!) We did discover that if you close the privacy curtain, the back bed area will get REALLY cold, but if you leave it open, it is at least bearable.

With the heaters we got lots of consendation with turned into ice on the inside of the trailer's windows - mostly in the back where the bed is located. The condensation isn't from the heaters. It is actually from people breathing. And from cooking, I suppose. The electric heaters don't produce any water, and although the propane furnace produces a lot of water vapor, it is vented outside, so the water doesn't get into the TM. Of course, if you used a non-vented propane catalytic heater inside, you get a lot of water vapor from it. Anyway, the answer is to crack a vent or open a window just a bit, and allow some of the moisture-laden air to escape. You hate to let the warm air out, but the alternative is all the condensation/ice you describe.

None of the pipes froze or our fresh water. TM promises that no pipes or tanks will actually break, even if they do freeze. And in my experience, they are right, with one exception. If you have an outside shower, and if you didn't remove the shower head and drain the hose, then it froze and probably broke. Mine did. And you won't discover it until your first trip in warm weather, when it will spray water all over the inside of the little compartment, and cascade down the outside of the TM ... and inside on the bathroom floor. Check it before your next trip.
The fact that the water tank and the pump are in the heated interior is a great thing - it means that they don't freeze, and you continue to have running water. Of course, if you had had water or sewer hookups, those hoses would have frozen. When my sewer hose froze, I picked it up - who knows why - and it instantly broke like a dry twig. Never did THAT again!

Camping was great but leaving was very hard.. we had to defrost all of moving parts before we could lower the TM and get all 3 feet of snow off of our roof.. The fact that snow built up is a testament to the insulation in the TM roof. I guess that's an advantage, right? At least until you have to shovel ...

Other things we learned:
1-fold up your steps.. very hard to get the ice and snow off of them
2-cover the hitch area.. so it doesn't get lots of ice on it
3-if it does start to snow... get the snow off the top everyday..don't let it build up!All good ideas. Thanks! And the one I would add, based on my own experience, is "Bring an electric hair dryer and an extension cord! You can thaw out anything if you have one."

Considering the storm we were in.. the TM did great.. Yup! Isn't it nice? In my case it was the owner that didn't do so good.

Bill

[Carol]

Hi!

We experienced some of the same issues that you did, but in September, in the Big Horn Mountains. We had wet, slushy snow, with lows in the lower 20's for most of the week we were there.

We did have lots of condensation with some ice on the windows and end parts of the shell (apparently not insulated as well as the rest) and wet pillows and bedding every morning. We wiped everything down with towels every morning and dried the bedding. The vapor must have been from us as we were using the proane heater supplemented by an electric heater for the back bed area.

I think that TrailManor should look into thermopane windows - it would help in the summer as well for reducing heat gain. The other area we found was very cold was the velcro seal areas - the insulation between the vinyl isn't the greatest!

We also had lots of cold air coming up behind the couch and found that the seal around the front storage compartment was not very tight. We stuffed something in there to help. That outside storage access is never used by us, so we are thinking of sealing it up with
insulation. There is also cold coming from the propane heater area under the couch in our 2720SL.

We also had condensation above the wheel wells inside the cupboards, especially under the stove area. This would probably be solved by doing the rounded wheel well modification, as it would add insulation. We did put a naugahyde cover on the air conditioner vent to block the cold air from coming in there and we put a magnetic cover on the bathroom vent.

We were thinking that insulated drapery material might help in the absence of thermopane windows. Anyone try this?

The campground water supply froze up the last few nights we were there. They fixed it the 1st couple of nights and then shut it down for the season. There was only electric at the campsites, so water was hauled in totes and the fresh water tank filled. We used a porta-potty at night and campground facilities druing the day to keep the black tank relatively empty. We dumped our gray water out in the woods via a long garden hose during the day, when temperatures were above freezing.

Here is a picture of our campsite at the Big Horns in Wyoming in Sept., 2003! http://carol.trailmanorowners.com/bighorns.jpg

A few weeks later in the Tetons where we had full hookups, we disconnected the water and sewer hoses at night when below freezing temperatures were expected overnight. It was definitely not as cold in the Tetons and we had also picked up an extra electric heater on our way. We plugged the extra one into a separate electric cord plugged into the grounded campsite 110 circuit breaker outlet so we wouldn't keep popping the internal circuit! We just had the extension cord put under the velcro flap near the refrigerator and had the extra heater on a camp table inside. The combo of the 2 heaters kept the propane heater pretty much off and we didn't have to listen to its loud fan.

We have decided that cold weather camping is too much of a challenge for us in the TrailManor, so we're going to stick to warmer weather camping from now on!

Carol

[Windbreaker]

Ditto, GVdriver and Carol! My moma taught me to stay in doors in cold weather!

[B_and_D]

CC Turtles - sounds like you sort of had fun, even though it was a challenge! Thanks for your input on the snow camping. Sounds like staying below the (heavy) snow level is best. It also sounds like your Toyota 4x4 did well on the snowy road.

Carol - what kind of an electrical cord arrangement did you have to connect the heaters outside via a separate electrical cord? Did the campground have the big round plug (30/50 amp)? If so, how did you plug the TM and another cord into that?

We camped in Columbia (gold country, CA) over Thanksgiving, and used an electric heater instead of the propane TM furnace. We used a clip-on electric fan to help circulate the air. The fan not only distributed the heat (the privacy curtains went away after the first night) but also helped the condensation problem. We also ran the fan in the rear bed area during the day to help dry things out.

Haven't got to the 110V outlet addition yet, but have done some other things to the TM, like put some hanging shelves inside the wardrobe cabinet, building a corner TV stand for the rear bed, etc. Still need to reinforce the dinette bed in the 2720 for where our son sleeps..seems like the newer models have a leg that folds down to support the bed (I think Larry showed us this when we visited him) but ours doesn't, and we improvised kind of a "luggage stand" type thing to go underneath, but there has got to be a better way.

We're going to venture out again camping soon, here in CA, but will try to stay out of the snow!

[Carol]

Carol - what kind of an electrical cord arrangement did you have to connect the heaters outside via a separate electrical cord? Did the campground have the big round plug (30/50 amp)? If so, how did you plug the TM and another cord into that?

We camped in Columbia (gold country, CA) over Thanksgiving, and used an electric heater instead of the propane TM furnace. We used a clip-on electric fan to help circulate the air. The fan not only distributed the heat (the privacy curtains went away after the first night) but also helped the condensation problem. We also ran the fan in the rear bed area during the day to help dry things out.



B_and_D - The post had both 30 amp round plug in and a standard 3 prong 110 15 amp plugin with a circuit breaker. If there is no circuit breaker, make sure you have a surge protector for the line. Since the TM has all internal 110 outlets on one circuit, the breaker will pop if too much stuff is running at one time, like 2 heaters or a heater and a microwave oven, etc. This method worked well for us.

We will have to look into the fan for the bed area, if we can figure out how to hook it up and secure it back there - a clip on sounds feasible. We were already running an oscillating fan in the main area and still had condensation there when we only were running 1 electric heater.

Thansk, Carol

[CC_Turtle]

I saw another TM at our same campground and they had some sort of silver material in all of their windows... i wonder if that helped with the insulation? I was going to ask them.. but forgot... has anyone heard of this material?

we also had to roll a blanket and lay it around the edges of the back bed.. to keep it warmer... but after a few days we ended up sleeping on the couch.. because it was so much warmer up there.. we used the bed for storage which actually worked ok since we had so much winter clothes!

teresa

[G-V_Driver]

There is a silver insulating and sun protection material sold for such use. When installed, it is approximately 1/2" thick, so it has reasonably good insulating qualities. It is somewhat compressible, and can be rolled up and stored fairly easily. Many airplanes use it with good results. Several companies offer kits for all most of the business-category airplanes. If you decide to use the material, there are a few things to consider:

It comes in rolls, and you would have to cut it to fit the TM windows. Not hard to do with a simple pattern, but the unfinished edge doesn't look all that great. The edges can be bound, but it takes some sewing.

Installation is normally accomplished either by wedging the material into the window frame or by use of velcro fasteners. Since TM's don' have window frames, velcro is the more obvious choice. If so, you must either make the pattern larger, so there will be some overlap on the walls to attach the velro, or you must mount the velcro pads around the outside edge of the windows.

If you want to pursue it, I will try to find out the name of the material, or you can look on the web at any pilot supply store.

[grkman1]

B and D

I would love to know how you did the corner TV stand in the backbed. I thought about this before, to run the cable in the bath to the cable hookup. If you have a picture of it, Id like to see how you did it.

We camped last March in Boston where the temperature went down to 27 at night. Nothing froze, except out water pump because it is attached to the outside wall of the 2619. I should have left the bunk open for the air to warm, but didnt.

A few minutes with a hair dryer and we had water again. the water bibs at this park were insulated and had a heating wire. We were able to fill out water tanks during the day, then roll up the hose to prevent it from freezing

We also got water condensation around the front bed due to the velcro flaps. I am wondering if we used some type of insulation from the outside to stuff it in those area if it would have prevented some of this. Of course the windows also had a lot of condensation, so maybe the covers that G-V driver was talking about would help.

Thanks for the info. Id like to go camping in the Pocono Mts of Pennsylvania in March during spring break and can use any tips you have.

thanks

[Chris_Bauer]

Since we were in one place for over a week, we ran the cable for cable TV into the bedroom from outside and plugged in the TV next to the wardrobe. It was so great to see the news in bed in the morning that when we moved on and had no cable, I connected the cable to the inside antenna connector out the flap and around the back to the bed area for local TV reception. I have an extra long cable.

I too am interested in the corner TV stand. Also, I am thinking of ordering the additional countertop drawer to use as a nightstand in the bed area, a great place to put the alarm clock, my coffee cup and the remote :o.

[arknoah]

I think that TrailManor should look into thermopane windows - it would help in the summer as well for reducing heat gain. The other area we found was very cold was the velcro seal areas - the insulation between the vinyl isn't the greatest!



Carol,

I agree 100%. When we first purchased our TM in 2000, I was surprised it didn't have dual pane windows. Condensation on the windows can be a problem, as is the transfer of heat through the windows -- just feel how cold they are in the early spring or late fall!

[G-V_Driver]

I learned more than I really wanted to know about cold wx camping a few years ago when we remodeled the house and needed a bed for " a couple of weeks max" per the contractor. He would keep one of the bathrooms available, but dust and other concerns would require sleeping somewhere else.

By the time we finally moved back in the house after 59 nights! in the camper, I had concluded that visqueen (plastic sheeting) and duct tape are invaluable. Both are cheap and available at any hardware store or Walmart. The most effective way to keep the trailer warm inside was to drape the plastic sheeting to the ground all around the perimeter of the trailer. The goal is to create an airtight space under the trailer, including the beds. It takes about an hour, and a box cutter (eek!) is handy, but it isn't particularly difficult. You should cut the plastic so there is about 12" margin lying on the ground to weight down with firewood, rocks, gravel, etc. With the TM's with the slide-out's, some thought should be given to arranging the material in order to vent the propane tanks. I recommend black visqueen for draping, due to passive solar heat gain.

Once the plastic is in place and air-tight, the little room under the trailer will have an amazing impact on comfort inside the trailer. A sheet of clear visqueen taped over the inside of the door (at night) and windows willl also create a dead-air space that is almost as good as double-pane windows for short-term use. It will eliminate the condensation and provide some insulation as well.

I've learned my lesson and don't ever intend to need any of this again, but thought I'd pass it along for those of you who haven't :)
I also found that a strip of duct tape over the crack where the rear bed meets the roof shell is very handy on my TM.

[Cateye]

I noted interest in methods to mount a TV/DVD in the bedroom area of the TrailManor. I also struggled with this problem and arrived at a solution that seems to work for us. The problem is mounting a stand or shelf SECURELY and without interfering with the operation of the TrailManor. The solution I arrived at uses a "takedown" shelf assembly made from aluminum tubing, bracketry and aluminum plate. The assembly can be described as a self supporting shelf with legs that extend a short distance under the end of the mattress. The top or shelf that holds the TV extends roughly 2 feet over and above the mattress. Rigidity is achieved with braces that do not interfere with the mattress. This makes viewing of a small screen very easy. It is light weight and can be assembled/disassembled without tools in a few minutes and stores flat. It is also very secure and "out of the way" while sleeping. FYI

[G-V_Driver]

I haven't done this yet, but here's the plan for the TV shelf in our 3124KS. I'd be interested in receiving any input from those more knowledgable than me (which probably includes almost everybody on this board.) :)

The materials required are a rectangular piece of finished 3/8" plywood, two hinges, two lengths of light chain and four small eyebolts. The concept is a fold-down shelf that attaches to the rear side of the closet at a height that will accommodate a small TV and clock while allowing plenty of room underneath for bedding and my XL feet.

The shelf will be as wide as the closet depth and deep enough to hold the TV. It will hinge (pivot) outward from the closet frame at the desired height. The chains will attach to the outward corners of the shelf and to the top of the frame. When unfolded, the shelf will extend at 90 degrees and be supported diagonally by the chains. I'd like to get a 45-degree support angle, but may have to settle for less.

When the closet is stored in the aisle for travel, the shelf will simply lie flat against the side of the closet, which happens to be the side that is on top, with the chains in the space beneath. I will probably rig some kind of wing-nut retainer (like the plastic one on the upper door) to keep the shelf from flopping, and to keep it out of the way when we don't use it.

I intend to run the cable from the cabinet in the LR up over the door and down the upper side wall so it won't interfere with traffic flow. A couple of small plastic clips would hold it in place and allow it to be easily removed for travel.

Your comments are welcomed. I plan to sell the kits for $99, but would make a special deal to TM'ers on this board. . . Like a cup of coffee at the next event ;)

[rockerga]

I know this is an old post but as an "owner to be," yes, I do not even have mine yet but with severe cold weather experience with my sons Pop-up I have a question regarding cold weather camping in a TM:

In his Pop-up when hooked-up to an electrical source he would turn-on his heater (radiant only) and then turn the "fan only" on his A/C to circulate the air. This had two advantages: the first being to "circulate" the air of course throughout the trailer and the second part was to reduce if not eliminate condensation. It kept the entire Pop-up front to rear as toasty as you could ever want.

Is the TM not able to utilize both systems like that?

[mjlaupp]

Quick answer - YES!

[rockerga]

GREAT! Thanks for the response and a quick answer was more than sufficient. Scared me there for a moment. I did not want to believe that an older pop-up had a better solution for cold weather camping than TM.

[rockerga]

Great! The wife and I like fresh air so I would assume then a crack in the window with the heater going and the A/C on "fan only" should keep us toasty and with the crack in the window alleviate excess condensation. As one of our initial purchases we are considering buying one of the "Maxxair" power vent fan covers so we would have good ventilation whatever the weather. Any news scoop on these??? Sounds even more like a neccessity from listening to these boards regarding the "air-tight" TM. The "saving" of propane is a consideration of course but for weight and safety (I never liked space heaters) coupled with only 2 - 4 day camp-outs to begin I believe we'll just use the propane we have to learn how long it will last as we go. In longer overnight winter travels (Will be Winter 2006 before we can do that) we'll know the duration of the propane from our usage this winter and weigh the value from that versus a "safe" space heater.

Thanks again as usual for your great experience helping us "newbies."

[Bill & Lisa]

I will not repeat the comments in the reply I posted to your new thread on the maxx air vent covers but let me add that if you haven't looked at "space heaters" in a while you will find that they have drastically changed. Today's ceramic heaters are inexpensive (~$20), small (8"or less per side) and light weight (3-4 lbs). The are inherantly safer than the old glowing metal strip heaters. Your local Walmart will have 8-9 models to chose from.
Bill

[rockerga]

Thanks! No I have not looked at them for ages, but thanks to the education(s) I am receiving here I will go look now!

Thanks again for all your assistance to a "newbie." In addition I will utilize the "search" better before I stir old subjects up! I PROMISE!!!

[Bill & Lisa]

Not a problem. There is a TON of info here. I just wanted to let you know I addressed the other parts of your post in a different reply :)

[Senorsedona]

First off, I agree with G-V Driver, Not even the thought of snow in my TM.

Small cube electric heaters do a great job, also when it is REALLY cold a Mr Heater does fantastic.

The silver window covers were probably the foil with plastic air pockets sandwiched between layers of foil. I have them for all my windows. They do a excellent job in the summer and equally well in the cold. Not dualtherm, but it does the job. And is much lighter & cheaper.

See you below the snow line.........

Jack

[BobRederick]

Has anyone found a good carbon monoxide sensor or oxygen sensor that would warn the user if levels become unsafe?

I am thinking of those who recommend the Mr Heater as well as use of the cook stove or a coleman type gas lantern. All put off carbon monoxide (lethal) except the Mr Heater which has a more complete form of combustion giving off carbon dioxide (harmless). All of these devices use room oxygen to burn propane and that in itself is a problem.

I have had many occasions in the Coleman tent camper where the cook stove or the lantern would give me a light-headed feeling when camping at altitude. This happens soon after lighting the device. I never know just how far to open a flap to let fresh air in and am hoping a sensor might make this more safe. Any good user experiences with one of these sensor devices out there or possible recommendations?