The dream became a reality!

[Firefly]

Hello all...

We can officially say we belong to the "TrailManor" family tonight because we just brought "our baby" home! It was a long trip from northern Illinois to southwestern Ohio...but it was definitely worthwhile! Atleast we know how she tows and it was just like you all said...like a dream!

We first found this board a few weeks ago and it has been invaluable in learning about and finding the perfect TrailManor for our family! We didn't didn't know what a TrailManor was until a couple of months ago and we only saw our first one (in person) a week ago. Can you tell it was love at first sight? ha :D

We found a 2001 - 3124KB at a dealer in northern Illinois via the internet. They had taken it in on trade and had never seen one before (in over 20 years in the RV business). It was quite the novelty in their showroom! It was in pristine condition and we brought it on home. They winterized it for us so we'll ge to play with it tomorrow and then it will go into storage for the next 6 months. (hurry up spring!) 8)

Now the search begins for a good tow vehicle. My Caravan won't cut it. We borrowed my Grandfather's Ford F-150 (v-6) pickup for the trip and it pulled the TM easy breezy!

I'm sure we'll have a lot of questions to ask you seasoned professionals but here's the first one:

For those of you who bought used TrailManors from dealers, did they offer you an extended warranty? Is this a good idea? The cost of the one they offered us was $980 for 3 years. ???

So...thanks again to all of you for all the great posts! We learned a lot and hope to learn much more in the future!

The Jankowski's
Tami, Garry & son Griffin (8 yrs), Raven (11 yr old black lab)

[BOB_STRONG]

Tami & Gary,
Glad to see you found your Trailmanor at last. Finding a good used one is not very easy. I don't know much about the the added warranty except for what I have seen in the Trailer Life Magazine. There are a lot of or's or buts in the contracts. Lots of times, the company that sold the warranty is not around, and most of the time you have to find a participating authorized dealer who will fix anything under warranty. If there isn't an authorized dealer in your area, then this could possible be a big problem. I know you have 2 Trailmanor dealers in Ohio, and one right over the border in Kentucky. If they participate, who knows?????

So I would be very careful. It's just like some friends who bought the extended warranty and they found out real quick how bad it was once they read the fine print

I bought an extended warranty on my Durango, but that was thru Chrysler and was good at any Dodge or Chrysler dealer throughout the USA.

So the word is CAUTION.

Good luck with your new purchase, and happy camping in the Spring

Bob Strong

[Firefly]

:) Thank you, Bob! I think that is good advice.

We were told that it was very expensive to replace appliances and so forth (for one thing)...so we were just curious if anyone had experience much appliance failure. Or anything else major?

We're closer to the dealer in Erlanger so I'll call them and ask a few questions about repair work.

Tami & Garry

[spoutman]

Tami & Gary,

Welcome to the TrailManor family. There are very few of us here in southwest Ohio. I have an 89 model 28 (like a 3023 but 2 feet longer and it has duel axles.) I tow it with a 2001 Dodge Ram 1500 Quad cab with an 318 v8, automatic, 3.55:1 rear end ratio. It tows my TrailManor like a dream. I don't even use a weight distributing hitch. One suggestion: The next time you are driving south on I-75 thru Tennessee, stop at Lake City and take a tour of the Trailmanor factory. I have toured the plant twice.

Welcome again,

Spoutman

[Chris_Bauer]

Congratulations!! Enjoy your new hobby, and remember: " It really is the greatest thing on wheels" :D.

[Firefly]

Dear Spoutman,

Thanks for the welcome! Glad to know there's some TM owners in our neck of the woods. I never see any!

As for the factory tour...Garry and I were just talking about how we need to do that since we have family who live fairly close to Knoxville. It could be a dual purpose trip! :D

I'm excited about finding a new tow vehicle. I'm not ruling out anything but we're leaning towards some kind of truck. The V-6 seemed to do a great job. Do you think a V-8 is necessary....say for maybe going through mountains or something? Just wondering. ???

Tami & Garry

[BOB_STRONG]

Tami & Gary,

I was wondering if your Trailmanor that you bought was from Sky Harbor Rv in Russell, Ill?? I saw on RVtraderonline a 2001 3124 King and it was in excellent condition from what I could see. The price was good, too. It had 2 hanging cabinets.

Love to know if that's the one!!!! If it is, I think you got a good deal.

Bob Strong

[Firefly]

;D Yes...Bob! That's the one!

It sure seemed like a very good price to us and we have heard how long it can take to find a good used one.

The folks at Sky Harbor RV & Marine in Russell, IL were excellent!! We would highly recommend them to anyone!

I'm glad you feel we made a good buy. I checked the nada pricing before calling them and thought...WOW...we should act quickly. So we did!

[grayghost]

hi tammy and gary - we first went to erlanger to check out the tm - then a trip to lake city, tn for the tour. we live in western ky near paducah and at the time were told there was a dealer opening up about 45 min south of us, but guess that fell through, so we bought ours from cross county in mattoon, il.

are you near cincinnati?

eileen and tom

[Bill]

I'm excited about finding a new tow vehicle. I'm not ruling out anything but we're leaning towards some kind of truck. The V-6 seemed to do a great job. Do you think a V-8 is necessary....say for maybe going through mountains or something? Just wondering.
You've towed around the midwest - pretty flat country, and easy for a V-6 to handle. But now that you have your TM, you won't stay in flat country - the TM brings out the exploring instinct! My opinion, and my experience, is that if you get into any kind of mountains at all, you won't be happy with a V-6. And your V-6 won't be happy, either - it will be working REALLY REALLY hard as you slog up the grade in second gear at 35 mph, being passed by every car and 18-wheeler out there. Overstressing your engine and transmission is just plain false economy.

Unless you are sure you will stay in the flatlands, I suggest getting a V-8, though I know some others will disagree. But even more important than that, be sure to get a factory-installed towing package. The extra coolers, and the higher rear-end ratio will do a lot to extend the life of your vehicle and make towing more pleasant. The Class 3 hitch receiver that is part of the towing package would be quite expensive as an aftermarket add-on. And the pre-wired and moisture-sealed 7-pin electrical connector is SO nice.

And have fun in the mountains!

Bill

[Firefly]

Eileen and Tom...we aren't too far from Cincy (about an hour and 15 min). We live Bellbrook, OH which is just southeast of Dayton. I guess Plapp's Pro Outdoors (In Erlanger, KY) is our closest dealer. They were very nice. They had two 2003 models on the lot when we were there...a 2720SL and a 3124KS. They are getting ready to expand though and the owner said they would be carrying more models in the future.

Bill...what you said about the V-8 makes sense. We do want to venture out now that we have the TrailManor. We have lots of family in California and would like to make some trips out there. I guess we were thinking if a V-6 would be more fuel efficient but it would be "false economy" if the TV couldn't do what we needed it to do. :-\

Good point. Thanks.

[spoutman]

Tami & Garry,

I did the same thing as you did. I purchased the TrailManor in Indiana across the river from Louisville. I had to have a friend of mine to tow it home. Then I had to hitch up the Trailmanor to my Ford Ranger to position it on the pad behind my house. I stumbled upon the Dodge at the right price with the tow package and sold my Ranger. The Dodge pulls the TrailManor with no effort. It is nice to have the power when you need it. My gas milage is approx 3/4 of a mile per gallon less than my city milage without the TrailManor. I have taken mine as far as Mt. Pleasant Iowa and Oshkosh Wisconsin running right with other traffic. Another suggestion. The prodigy brake controller is great and it you look you can find them for around $100.00. BTW I am on the westside of Cincinnati.

Spoutman

[RockyMtnRay]

Let me add a few thoughts to what Bill has said about the tow vehicle power issue. I live in Colorado and regularly tow a 2720 over high altitude Rocky Mtn passes. For the past 2 camping seasons my TV was a Jeep Cherokee with a 4.0 Liter, 190 HP engine that put out 220 lbs-feet of torque. I bring up torque because this is a far more important measure of a TV's engine's ability to tow a trailer than is its horsepower. The Jeep engine, though larger and more powerful (in terms of torque) than nearly all V6s available was severely hobbled by a 3.07 rear axle ratio (great for fuel economy and quiet highway cruising but horrible for towing) and insufficient radiator cooling capability. The bottom line is that poor Jeep's engine was working its heart out (I had the gas pedal floored an awful lot of the time) pulling my 2720 through the mountains...and your 3023, when loaded, will be at least several hundred pounds heavier than my TM.

I've done a lot of TV vehicle investigation this fall and reached several conclusions about what you need in a good TV for mountain towing.

First, the number of cylinders in the engine really aren't important....what is important is its maximum torque rating...and that that maximum occurs at around 3000 RPM where it can actually be used. The minimum value for torque is 300 lbs-feet if you want to successfully tow in the mountains. To get to that torque, you realistically need an engine somewhere in the 5 Liter (300 cubic inch) size range give or take about .5 Liter...which basically means having a V8 as few, if any, 5 or 6 cylinder engines are made that large. Incidentally, an engine's horsepower rating is semi-meaningless for towing since horsepower is usually measured very near the engine's red-line RPM. Running an engine near the red-line RPM for an extended period (like towing up a long grade) will drastically shorten its life. In addition, a real easy way for automotive engineers to up the horsepower on an engine is to raise the red-line RPM by a thousand RPM or so...but it's still the same engine making the same maximum torque!

The 2nd most important factor in the TV drivetrain is the rear axle ratio. What you want is a rear axle ratio that puts the engine at its maximum torque at typical safe towing speeds (roughly 60 to 65 mph) when the transmission is running in Drive without Overdrive (towing in O/D is extremely hard on automatic transmissions). A rear axle ratio somewhere between 3.73 and 3.9 meets this requirement. Generally such an axle ratio is part of a towing package. By comparison, most vehicles today are equipped with 3.07 to 3.3 axles because those lower gear ratios (paradoxically known as "higher geared" (as in higher speed)) produce noticeably better fuel economy (typically 2 to 3 mpg better).

Finally, and of roughly equal importance to the axle ratio, is having plenty of cooling capacity for both the engine and the transmission. That means a heavy duty radiator and a separate transmission cooler. Both are normally part of towing packages.

Bottom line: If you want long engine and transmission life...and the ability to successfully tackle 10 mile long 7% to 10% mountain grades in 90 degree heat...you need to think much more in terms of buying enough power and torque and make fuel economy a very secondary consideration. But take heart that you're not pulling a big box style tradtional travel trailer and feeling lucky to get 7 to 10 mpg!

I took my own advice by the way...my new TV is Toyota Tundra pickup with a 4.7 Liter DOHC V8 that puts out a respectable 319 lbs-feet of torque at 3200 RPM...and it has a 3.91 axle ratio to get that torque to the tires. And if I find that still isn't enough, I have the option of bolting on a supercharger that will add another 75 lbs-feet of torque!

[Firefly]

Spoutman...

I'm so glad we weren't the only ones who put the "Cart before the horse"...so to speak. We wanted this TrailManor and I was determined to find a way to get it home. Like I said...Grandpa's pickup worked just fine. The poor thing is a 1995 with 37,000 miles on it. I'm quite sure it's never been out of Greene County, drivin more than 50 mph or towed anything heavier than an empty hay wagon....let alone a trip to Chicago going 70 mph, towing 3,000 lbs with the radio blaring! haha We blew some cobwebs out of that old girl!

Ray...

Wow! You have WAY surpassed me on engine knowledge. :o Garry is going to have to get on here and read your last response. It all sounded good though!

Thanks! :)

[BOB_STRONG]

Tammi & Gary,

Yes, you sure did get it at a bargain price. The Trailmanor sure looked in immaculate condition from the pictures on RVtraderonline. You sure were lucky to find it. I think you got such a price because the dealer just wanted to get rid of it since he knew nothing about Trailmanors. I couldn't believe that there were 2 hanging cabinets in the unit. Nice idea. Any other Trailmanor dealer would have killed to get a used unit like that. Where we bought our Trailmanor, they can't get any used ones in. People are always calling to see if they have any. This guy sure missed the boat!!! His loss was your gain.

I agree with everyone else about the V8. I have the 3326 King and I am glad that I bought my Durango with a 360 V8 and the towing package. With all of the mountains we have in Pa,, the V8 comes in handy. Also the rear end is a 3:90 which is good for towing. Even though I have the V8, I still get good gas mileage pulling our Trailmanor.

Bob Strong

[Firefly]

Hi Bob...

I'm glad you think we did alright! That makes us feel good from someone who knows TrailManors.
You're probably right about the dealer...he probably just wanted to get rid of it. The employees sure liked it though! The young guy who did our orientation ( I think I knew more than he did about it) just loved it!

We actually just set it up in our driveway for the first time. It was so easy!!! We've been out there cleaning the road grunge off a few places but it's really immaculate.

It's funny you should mention that cabinet over the stove. When we went in this TrailManor for the first time, I told Garry something wasn't right. I told him the cabinet over the stove didn't match the others. The guys all told me I was crazy but I knew. Sure enough...I found a receipt where the original owner had sent off for cabinet brackets from the factory. I didn't see a receipt for the cabinet though. I don't really like the cabinet there so for now...I took it down. I like the more open feeling. ::)

I was thinking about a Durango. I've always liked those.

[spoutman]

Tami,

The great thing about the newsgroup is the ability to learn from others experiences. Bob Strong's Durango sounds like a real towing machine. If I remenber correctly in 95, Ford's 6 cylinder was a 300 cubic inch straight 6. In the late 70's they were used in trucks up to the F500 series. Then in the eighties Ford went to fuel injection on this engine. They have a LOT of low end torque and might give you a false impression of a 6 cylinder engine. One suggestion, try towing the TrailManor with different vehicles that you are interested in before you buy. Talk to rvers etc. The dealer will look in their books and tell you what a vehicle will tow but, they cannot tell you how it will "feel". For example I tried an 2002 F 150 that Ford stated would tow approx 7000 lbs. My trailManor weighs in at 4120 lbs fully loaded. The 2002 F 150 was horrible and I'm a Ford man. I also towed my TM with my friend's 2000 Toyota Tundra rated to tow 7200 lbs. It was IMPRESSIVE. Two vehicles with very close tow ratings and totally different feel when towing. I have a very steep hill approx. 3/4 of a mile away and that was part of my test. I don't want to tell you what to buy but, if you have a tow vehicle that doesn't feel right, it can make the drive to and from a real chore. You may also want to load up your TM and have it weighed at a truck stop, grain elevator or builders supply etc to give you a good starting point. I hope this helps and doesn't upset everyone. Don't listen to everything the manufatures tell you. Use it as a reference point. Try to experience it for yourself. Also look at www.trailerlife.com. They have tow rating from the truck models by model year.

Good luck,

Spoutman

[Firefly]

:) Thanks Spoutman!

I think that is sound advice!

The TM goes into storage this Tuesday and we won't get it back out for 6 months. So this gives until spring to find something. We want to take our time and do our homework on a tow vehicle.

Rushing into buying the TM was enough stress for awhile! :o We're just thankful it was a keeper!

[azroadrunner]

Tami & Gary,

You are going to love your new TM. I know this because we love ours. We pull our 3124KS with a 350 (5.7L) V8. I bought the truck new in 1995 and picked all the items I thought I would ever need such as a towing package, 4 wheel drive, limited slip 3.73 rear end, AT and then the creature comforts such as AC, leather bucket seats, radio w/CD & Tape, etc. I caution you about calling it a "poor thing". Ours has been back to the midwest several times and to Florida once. 94,000 miles and still runs and pulls like new. Our first trip after bringing it home from the Phoenix area was to the top of Mt Graham. It is approximately 60 miles to Riggs Lake from our home in Thatcher. The climb is from 3200 ft at home to 9,000 ft at the lake. The road is paved except for the last 15 miles where it is a narrow forest road. Both trailer and tow vehicle made it like the champs they are. You can see our pictures at: http://community.webshots.com/album/97243979KjfxxA

Jim

[Windbreaker]

I'm glad you posted the photo link again, do they have any hook ups there? I saw your truck was parked where the hookups should be. Looks like a nice place other than that. If no hook ups, dump station not far?

[Firefly]

Hi Jim...

Thanks for the input! :)

I think you may have misinterpreted the "poor thing" remark!

This 1995 Ford F-150 belongs to my 90 year old Grandfather who is a retired farmer. He has recently developed Alzheimers and can no longer drive but his beloved truck still sits in the barn.

I said "poor thing" because this great truck has never been used to it's full potential. It was a like a horse that had never been ridden! It's a 1995 truck in "like new" condition. Someone is going to get one heck of a deal whenever my Grandmother decides to sell it. We can't buy it because it's just a regualr cab...no room for kids and dogs.

Garry and I were both raised to buy vehicles, baby them to death and drive them until the wheels fall off! :D

Hopefully we can find a good, used tow vehicle that has enough power to tow our TM anywhere we want to go.

Now that we are armed with all of this good information...I'm going to go look at some different trucks today. I feel like I'm much better prepared thanks to all of you!

[Civil_War_Buff]

Tami & Garry,

I am certain that if you like your TM half as much as I like mine, you will have a great time camping in it. Fortunate for us on the west coast, we can camp all year around. I have looked at the pics of yours and the rig looks great.

Enjoy,

Larry

[Firefly]

Thanks Larry!

We're definitely jealous of your year round camping capabilities!! :'(

[azroadrunner]

Windbreaker, sorry, but this site is located in an area that is extremely remote. The last 15 miles of the road going to the lake is forest road. Mostly dirt and very rocky, narrow and steep. Takes about 40 min to go the 15 miles. There is no electricity at the site. At this time the spring has gone dry so there is no water. Although you see where I parked in the picture, what you don't see is that it took me about 30 min to get parked. Part of that is because I was alone. I was alone because I wanted to get there early enough to get a spot. Deanna came up after getting off work. There are only 3 sites that our rig could fit into. No dump facilities in the area. I dump at home. This is a very pretty and remote site. You have to love it to endure getting there. Not hard, but very slow. Approx 5500 ft elevation change in around 60 miles from our house at 3500 ft.

If anyone wants more info just enter "Riggs Lake" in Google and you'll find more info.

Don't mean to discourage anyone, just want them to know what they are getting into before they start out.

Jim

[lwhansen]

> Bottom line: If you want long engine and transmission life...and the
> ability to successfully tackle 10 mile long 7% to 10% mountain grades
> in 90 degree heat...you need to think much more in terms of buying
> enough power and torque and make fuel economy a very secondary
> consideration. But take heart that you're not pulling a big box style
> tradtional travel trailer and feeling lucky to get 7 to 10 mpg!

> I took my own advice by the way...my new TV is Toyota Tundra
> pickup with a 4.7 Liter DOHC V8 that puts out a respectable 319
> lbs-feet of torque at 3200 RPM...and it has a 3.91 axle ratio to get
> that torque to the tires. And if I find that still isn't enough, I have
> the option of bolting on a supercharger that will add another 75
> lbs-feet of torque![/QUOTE]

OK, I am thinking about getting a Suburban. What engine is best? 5.3, 6.0 or 8.1. I live in New Mexico, so I need a TOW that is very happy in mountains towing a fully loaded 3124KB, 3 adults and 3 kids.

Thanks,
Lars

[RealJeep]

>>What engine is best? 5.3, 6.0 or 8.1.<<<
Anytime you're talking engines for pulling a trailer a diesel is always "best". They don't put them in semi's just because they sound cool. And the best of the best in my humble opinion is the Cummins found only in a Dodge. Not that Dodge would be my first choice in trucks but you can't go wrong with the cummins.

[Civil_War_Buff]

Hey Lars,

I agree with RJ in that a diesel is the absolute best for pulling grades, but if you are set on gas, I have the 5.3L in my Tahoe and on my trip to New Mexico last year with trips through the Gila NF, it was fine. I had 3 adults and a lot of gear in the back as well. I would suggest that you also consider the 5.7L as it has a little more HP if you wanted more.

Larry

[RockyMtnRay]

> Bottom line: If you want long engine and transmission life...and the
> ability to successfully tackle 10 mile long 7% to 10% mountain grades
> in 90 degree heat...you need to think much more in terms of buying
> enough power and torque and make fuel economy a very secondary
> consideration. But take heart that you're not pulling a big box style
> tradtional travel trailer and feeling lucky to get 7 to 10 mpg!

> I took my own advice by the way...my new TV is Toyota Tundra
> pickup with a 4.7 Liter DOHC V8 that puts out a respectable 319
> lbs-feet of torque at 3200 RPM...and it has a 3.91 axle ratio to get
> that torque to the tires. And if I find that still isn't enough, I have
> the option of bolting on a supercharger that will add another 75
> lbs-feet of torque!

OK, I am thinking about getting a Suburban. What engine is best? 5.3, 6.0 or 8.1. I live in New Mexico, so I need a TOW that is very happy in mountains towing a fully loaded 3124KB, 3 adults and 3 kids.

Thanks,
Lars
Being the one who got quoted here, thought I'd chime in...

IMO, you need at least the 6.0 V8...and the highest numerical (ideally 4.10) axle ratio you can get in a 'burban. "Low" Axle ratios (high numerical) greatly improve towing (especially mountain towing) but have a tiny effect on gas mileage. The 8.1 would be nicely powerful but also likely a bit expensive to feed...the 6.0 with a high numerical axle should be more than adequate but a lot more economical. The 5.3 is a tad too small to use in mountain towing with that heavy a SUV plus passengers/cargo plus a 4000 lb (or so) trailer.

RealJeep is right that diesels are the kings of torque and having massive amounts of torque is the key to happy mountain towing. But, AFAIK, the only SUV with a diesel is the Ford Excursion and 2005 is the last year for Excursions. Chevy doesn't (yet) offer a diesel in any model of Suburban...apparently the Allison transmission used with the current Duramax diesel won't fit under the Suburban floorpan with sufficient ground clearance.

RealJeep is also right that the Cummins TurboDiesel is indeed a fine engine...and it seems to do great in mountain towing...but it's not available in any Dodge SUV. The biggest engine in the new Dodge Durango is the 5.3 Hemi and I have been very un-impressed with the Hemi's towing prowess in the mountains...it produces nearly all of its torque at about 5000 RPM...just below redline. So if the Hemi isn't kept at max RPM (hard to do for 10 continuous miles :eek: ), it's pretty gutless. On more than one occasion, my "rice burner" Toyota with a mere 4.7L engine has left a Ram pickup equipped with the mighty Hemi breathing my dust on a mountain grade. :D

P.S. I wrote the quoted material in the fall of '03...before I had done any towing with my Tundra. After a full season of towing, I can say that the stock truck (319 ft-lbs of torque at a relatively low 3400 RPM; 3.91 axle) was adequate for mountain towing of my 2720SL. By adequate, I mean I could maintain the posted speed limit on all grades (not stuck in the slow lane with the semis and big RVs)...but I had to really rev it up in 2nd gear to do this. The supercharger option turned out to be not an option (long story). So I went the traditional route of exhaust headers and freeer flowing muffler...and had the axles regeared to a 4.30 ratio. The combination of now getting about 350 ft-lbs out of the engine and the 10% gearing change has made mountain towing downright enjoyable...the truck is now way more than adequate for mountain towing and can pull nearly all grades in 3rd gear.

[lwhansen]

Being the one who got quoted here, thought I'd chime in...

IMO, you need at least the 6.0 V8...and the highest numerical (ideally 4.10) axle ratio you can get in a 'burban. "Low" Axle ratios (high numerical) greatly improve towing (especially mountain towing) but have a tiny effect on gas mileage. The 8.1 would be nicely powerful but also likely a bit expensive to feed...the 6.0 with a high numerical axle should be more than adequate but a lot more economical. The 5.3 is a tad too small to use in mountain towing with that heavy a SUV plus passengers/cargo plus a 4000 lb (or so) trailer.

RealJeep is right that diesels are the kings of torque and having massive amounts of torque is the key to happy mountain towing. But, AFAIK, the only SUV with a diesel is the Ford Excursion and 2005 is the last year for Excursions. Chevy doesn't (yet) offer a diesel in any model of Suburban...apparently the Allison transmission used with the current Duramax diesel won't fit under the Suburban floorpan with sufficient ground clearance.

RealJeep is also right that the Cummins TurboDiesel is indeed a fine engine...and it seems to do great in mountain towing...but it's not available in any Dodge SUV. The biggest engine in the new Dodge Durango is the 5.3 Hemi and I have been very un-impressed with the Hemi's towing prowess in the mountains...it produces nearly all of its torque at about 5000 RPM...just below redline. So if the Hemi isn't kept at max RPM (hard to do for 10 continuous miles :eek: ), it's pretty gutless. On more than one occasion, my "rice burner" Toyota with a mere 4.7L engine has left a Ram pickup equipped with the mighty Hemi breathing my dust on a mountain grade. :D

P.S. I wrote the quoted material in the fall of '03...before I had done any towing with my Tundra. After a full season of towing, I can say that the stock truck (319 ft-lbs of torque at a relatively low 3400 RPM; 3.91 axle) was adequate for mountain towing of my 2720SL. By adequate, I mean I could maintain the posted speed limit on all grades (not stuck in the slow lane with the semis and big RVs)...but I had to really rev it up in 2nd gear to do this. The supercharger option turned out to be not an option (long story). So I went the traditional route of exhaust headers and freeer flowing muffler...and had the axles regeared to a 4.30 ratio. The combination of now getting about 350 ft-lbs out of the engine and the 10% gearing change has made mountain towing downright enjoyable...the truck is now way more than adequate for mountain towing and can pull nearly all grades in 3rd gear.

Thank you. Your experience is invaluable! Now I am convinced that I need the 6.0 or greater, that means getting a Suburban 2500, and since I want 4x4, it means a K2500. I think it is hard to be picky about axle ratio, when buying used. I have done a national wide search for K2500's, and have only found about 10 of them with low miles in my price range (cars.com, autotrader and eBay). Do you have any idea how much it costs to upgrade the axle to a 4.1? It is hard to find a place that can do the upgrade?

Lars

[Windbreaker]

I don't mean to tell you your business but if you get a 4x4 and change the rearend gearing you will have to change the front end and the transmission also. It might be cheaper to spring for the new. I kinda looked into this some time back and went new.

[fcatwo]

If you go new you might also want to look at some of the TV's that have gone to five speed transmissions. If I lived near RMR I'd have him use my 05 Tundra to drag his TM up those hills a couple of times to see if the more numerous gears in the lower range (top two gears in the Tundra 4 & 5 speed trans are essentially the same) in any way compensate for mines lack of power-train customizing.

[RockyMtnRay]

I don't mean to tell you your business but if you get a 4x4 and change the rearend gearing you will have to change the front end and the transmission also. It might be cheaper to spring for the new. I kinda looked into this some time back and went new.
True. Yes, both axles have to be regeared on a 4WD vehicle...and the front one is often substantially more expensive because (1) the differential is harder to get to and (2) the front axle usually uses CV joints due to the independent front suspension.

Not quite true. Transmission changes are minimal...the only change needed is to the drive for the speedometer. On older mechanical speedometers, that was simply done with a different speedometer drive gear..a $1.50 part. Newer electronic speedometers require a recalibrator device be wired into the circuit between the speed sensor on the transmission and the Engine/Gauge control unit. Wiring in the recalibrator is not difficult but recalibrators aren't cheap...usually around $200.

[RockyMtnRay]

Thank you. Your experience is invaluable! Now I am convinced that I need the 6.0 or greater, that means getting a Suburban 2500, and since I want 4x4, it means a K2500. I think it is hard to be picky about axle ratio, when buying used. I have done a national wide search for K2500's, and have only found about 10 of them with low miles in my price range (cars.com, autotrader and eBay). Do you have any idea how much it costs to upgrade the axle to a 4.1? It is hard to find a place that can do the upgrade?

Lars
Welcome. Glad I was able to convince you of the need for the bigger engine to be truly happy when you regularly tow over high altitude mountain roads. A smaller engine (e.g. the 5.3L) that works "just fine" for a one time tow in Colorado or New Mexico will not be just fine for repeated towing over the high passes. I know first hand how fast the power limitations that were scarcely noticeable on the first trip become a huge source of unhappiness by even the 5th trip across the Continental Divide passes. And now that I've finally got very good power, more than once I've passed a loaded 1500 series Suburban that was clearly struggling to even hold 55 on a long high grade...and I had my trailer behind me and the Suburban did not have a trailer in tow. You would be not happy in the long run in New Mexico with a smaller engine.

Costs of regearing axles seem to vary quite a bit from locale to locale since much of the cost is labor. It really should only be done by a shop specializing in differentials and those are indeed pretty rare...but can be found if you do some searching in the phone book and talking to 4WD shops. Regearing is precision work (measurements to the 10,000th of an inch) and careful, meticulous shops are likely to be more expensive.

The shop that regeared my truck is about the best in my city (of around 400,000 people) and probably a bit above average in price. Their normal charge is $350 labor for the rear axle, $500 labor on the front axle. (I've heard of shops that charge as low as $250 on the rear, $300 on the front). In addition to the cost of labor, there's also the cost of the replacement ring & pinion gears (about $170 to $200 per axle) as well as the cost of "install kits" (shims, bearings, seals, etc.) which also are about $150 to $200 per axle. Add it all up and regearing both axles on a 4WD vehicle will range, depending on the exact shop and parts used, from around $1200 to $1900. It's a pretty sizable chunk of cash and makes it worthwhile to buy a vehicle with the desired axle ratio already installed...if you can find one.

[RockyMtnRay]

If you go new you might also want to look at some of the TV's that have gone to five speed transmissions. If I lived near RMR I'd have him use my 05 Tundra to drag his TM up those hills a couple of times to see if the more numerous gears in the lower range (top two gears in the Tundra 4 & 5 speed trans are essentially the same) in any way compensate for mines lack of power-train customizing.
This would be a very interesting test...in part because the '05 Tundra not only has more gears but the ratios are a bit closer (there's a big jump from 3rd to 2nd on the '03s 4speed). But of equal importance, the '05s VVTI heads/dual intake runners almost completely flatten out the torque curve of the engine at RPMs over about 3500 (the '03 loses about 100 ft-lbs between 3500 and 5200 RPM). At 3400 RPM, the '05 has only about 5 ft-lbs more torque and below that the '03 engine actually has a bit more torque than the '05.

My engine mods have boosted torque mostly between 2500 and 4000 RPM; the axle regearing added 10% across the board. So...my '03 clearly will be able to stay in 3rd (1:1 ratio) much longer on a hill than an '05 can stay in 4th (1:1 ratio). Once the '05 does shiftdown to 3rd, it will easily stay with my '03...though at a much higher RPM. But once my '03 finally does have to shift down to 2nd, the '05 should be able to leave it behind while staying in 3rd.

But now that I have so much more available torque in 3rd (direct drive, 1:1), downshifts to 2nd have become fairly rare even on Colorado's steep and high mountain grades. So, to a degree, having more transmission gears isn't that big a deal if the engine has enough torque for towing on most grades to begin with. But once the downshifting has to happen, then more gears are better.

[Donde1]

I've done no testing on this myself but have been told. Talking about GM (Suburban or Yucon XL) The 8100 has the alison trany just like the Duramax and you have a choice between 3.73 or 4.10 rearend. You cannot get an alison with a 6.0, and you can only get it with 4.10 rearend (talking stock of course). Bottom line the 6.0 gets it's torque from a lower geared rearend at the expense of higher rpms and lower fuel mpg. The 8100 will cost more at 1st however I've been told (please correct me if I've been told wrong) will have substantionaly more torque and with the 3.73 rearend some have told me they are getting better mpg than the 6.0 with a 4.10 rearend.