Solar panels for dummies

[Lesherp]

I would like to have solar before our big trip in May. We camp a lot where there is no electric hookups and hate the noise of the generator. I think I have read everything here but am not sure what to buy or exactly how it works.

Technology is changing constantly, so I imagine some of the older information may no longer be pertinent. From what I have gathered I will need a couple of panels , brackets to attach them to the trailer, some kind of super adhesive tape to glue the brackets to the trailer, a controller, a way to connect the two (wire) and probably some kind of fuse.

I live in the Pacific NW where there is limited sun part of the year, and a lot of trees. It looks like we will be traveling to the SW in winter and/or spring now that we are retired so we would really like to have solar. I have a generator, but would like to eliminate using it even at home if that is possible. I am for the most part a, get your most bang for the buck kind of guy, even if that means buying something a little more expensive to begin with.

I would appreciate any suggestions as to exactly what equipment I should purchase. How many watts should the panels have? Is there a difference in controllers? Would one better meet my needs? Type of wire. What kind of fuse to use. Has there been any problems with the adhesive tape talked about in the posts?

If I understand correctly power from the panels is run to the controller and it is wired directly to the battery. At this point I get a little confuse as to how it all works. What happens if I am connected to shore power also. Will I need turn one off or disconnect something?

[Bill]

Lots of good questions. Let me start with some thoughts, and many other members will follow up.

How many watts in the panels? Stay away from the little panels, like 15 watts or 25 watts. General concensus seems to be that two or three 80 watt panels is pretty good. You would have trouble carrying more than that, though it could be done.

Your panels could either be roof-mounted as you describe, or portable ground-mounted. Roof-mounted are easy to use, but depend on parking your TM in a spot that will be sunny all day. Although you get lots of electrical power, your trailer becomes uncomfortably hot inside, especially if you are camping in the desert. Ground-mounted enable you to park your TM in the shade, moving your panels into the sun and pointing them south no matter which way the TM happens to be facing. Lots of discussion in the Solar Power forum.

You need a controller, whose function is to stop the solar system from over-charging your batteries when they are full. A simple and cheap controller is perfectly adequate for the small systems we are discussing. More expensive controllers (called MPPT) will extract more charge from each hour of sunlight, but for a small system are so expensive that it is cheaper just to buy another solar panel if you need more capacity.

You can run the solar charger system and any other charger at the same time. No need to think about switching one off and another one on, etc.

Try going to Arizona Wind and Sun http://windsun.com/ for a lot of good info. Although they sell solar setups from an associated web site, their mission here is to educate potential solar users so they know what to buy.

Hope this helps.

Bill

[ThePair]

I don't have solar, I don't plan in the near future on getting it -- no need for me, currently.

However, I would look at these guys: http://shop.rvsolarnow.com/RV-solar-Kits_c8.htm

Why? They're solar-in-a-suitcase systems, which look like they'd need minimal modification to wire into a battery (with a disconnect). Portable = aim it at what little sunlight you can find, without having to worry about parking the TM in a particular location/orientation. Don't bring them when you don't need them, etc. Not too pricey, either, best I can tell. Expandable, if you find that your initial estimate of need isn't enough, you can add on another portable panel.

It's something I would seriously consider, just passing along another option!

(again, I don't have solar and have had no dealing with this company, just thought the product showed promise for our kind of set-up)

[rumbleweed]

+1 on windsun.com

Very unbiased info with simple to understand explanations

[Scott O]

The RVSolar site looks very interesting. As someone with the factory solar panels, there is a real need to have a system which can be tilted and moved around. The sun is rarely where you need it! As an aside, it seems I remember someone who designed and roof-mounted their own system a couple of years ago. The instillation seemed to be interesting at the time. Maybe a search would find it...

[Lesherp]

I am thinking that the portable unit might be the best way to go.

It seems like set up time would be minimal. The chances of being able to have your panel in the sun would be greater. With the extension cord you would be able to place and orient it up to 40 feet from the trailer. I talked to the manufacture and the only difference between the economy and pro is the controller. The pro displays battery voltage, output, amps, total amp/hours produced, and percent of battery charge. I think my clipper monitor will do most if not all of that.

I was concerned about leaving the panels unattended. The handle is attached with tamper proof screws so a security cable can be used. The alarm padlock that comes with the pro can be purchased for $25 if wanted. The mounted units would be a little more theft proof but I think this would be acceptable a lot of the time. When it isn't just use them when in camp.

I would not have to worry about hail or cleaning that were the negative factors I saw in roof mounted panels. The only advantage I see to mounted is charging when traveling.

[Bill]

As an aside, it seems I remember someone who designed and roof-mounted their own system a couple of years ago... Maybe a search would find it... Most of this board's experience with roof-mounted panels goes back to Rocky_Mtn_Ray, who first did it in 2003. There is more recent experience with roof-mounted panels, and a Search of the Solar Power forum will indeed turn it up, but pretty much all of it goes back to Ray, who researched it intensely.

http://www.trailmanorowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1034

I have to agree that in very many cases, portable panels will do a better job, for the reasons stated. There are a lot of discussions on this topic as well.

Bill

[Lesherp]

From reading it seems that it is best to have the controller as close to the battery as possible. Is this a drawback of the design of the CEA units? How important is it?

[rumbleweed]

Most panels put out around 17V taking into account loss between the panel and the controller. The controller then takes adjusts the voltage down to the proper charging level. Any drop between the controller and battery ( caused by wire length between them) results in a further drop in charging voltage that impacts charging capability. If you park your TM in the shade and want your panels to be efficient, I suggest portable. A simple inexpensive collapsible support can be built from PVC.

[scrubjaysnest]

From reading it seems that it is best to have the controller as close to the battery as possible. Is this a drawback of the design of the CEA units? How important is it?
It will only be a drawback if the controller doesn't have remote temperature correction. To get the best out of the system use the largest wire you can afford, no smaller then 10awg for a 40 foot run. If the controller has built in temperature correction then locate it within inches of the battery's for best results.

+1 for the windsun.com site

[Lesherp]

The more I think about this the more complicated I seem to make it. At first I thought the CEA 130 watt folding portable RV Solar System might be the ticket. However it is only 130 watts and has a PWM controller that is attached to the panels that would be maybe 40' from the battery. This is not optimal at a cost of $600.

I than considered making my own portable unit with Kyocera KD 140GX ($285) with Blue Sky SB251i MPPT ($180) with additional cost of wire etc. It seemed like, from what I have read, this setup would maybe be 30% more efficient with an MPPT controller pulse extra 10 watts. The problem I had with this is that the panel is 59" by 26" and 28 lbs. I think handling and storage might be cumbersome. I began to think two 85 Watt panels might be better ($200 each an extra $115)
.
If I am going to have two panels I am now considering one roof mounted and one portable. When considering advantages and disadvantages of portable vs roof mounted I was leaning toward portable despite the fact that my batteries discharge when I'm traveling with the refrigerator running on DC. Another advantage would be that electricity used the night before traveling could be restored in transit. For an extra $80 I could put a 140 Watt on the roof so depending on the sun at the camp site and electricity usage I might not even need to set up the portable panel.

I would end up with 225 watts and some versatility that I think might be worth the cost and effort. Panels and controller would run $665 and I am hopping the rest of what I would need would be under $200. It that reasonable thinking?

Does anyone see any problems with doing this?

I have not worked out how to wire it yet and would probably need some consultation.

Here is the controller I am considering. Will work or if there is a better option?

http://www.solar-electric.com/sbchco2512vm.html

I see almost all the panels have CM4 connectors but that you can get some with a junction box. Any thought on what would be better.

Here are the panels I am considering.

http://www.solar-electric.com/so85wa12voso.html
http://www.solar-electric.com/kykd140wa12v1.html

[Brittany Dogs]

And when all is said and done, a Honda 1000 or 2000 just hums away quietly, at about the same price.

I understand your desire to go green and if you have a lot of sunlight every day, the recurring cost is less than an inverter generator and solar is silent. I just happen to live in an area of the country where the generators make more sense than solar panels. So my thinking is skewed.

[B_and_D]

And when all is said and done, a Honda 1000 or 2000 just hums away quietly, at about the same price.

I understand your desire to go green and if you have a lot of sunlight every day, the recurring cost is less than an inverter generator and solar is silent. I just happen to live in an area of the country where the generators make more sense than solar panels. So my thinking is skewed.

What if you can't buy gas?

[LoveToCamp]

I have not installed this, yet, but I bought a 100 watt panel. (http://www.ebay.com/itm/COMPLETE-KIT-100-W-Watt-100W-100Watts-Photovoltaic-PV-Solar-Panel-12V-RV-Boat-/400320440364?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d34f5282c) for $220. My dad had an 85 watt on his TT, and never ran out of power (single 12v battery). Unless it was raining all day, he recharged almost completely, to completely every day.

Seems like a good price, and sufficient output that I can go for weeks without other charging. I'll find out this summer, as I have a 10-day planned, all dry camping.

I got the 3M tape (don't have it in front of me - will edit when I get the details) online. This is what The Car Show uses to mount their panels. Clean the roof with rubbing alcohol before using, and they say it lasts for years. After installation, seal the edges with white silicone.

[Bill]

Let me toss one more comment into the mix to simplify your choice. You mentioned the possibility of buying an MPPT controller. You should know that although MPPT can get a few more watts out of a solar panel setup, and they are very valuable in large solar applications, they do not pay for themselves in a small solar system.

To illustrate, suppose an MPPT controller can get an extra 10% out of a set of solar panels. If you have a large array (for illustration, say 10,000 watts), then the MPPT controller will get an extra 1000 watts out of those panels. When you balance the extra cost of the MPPT controller against the added value of 1000 watts of capacity, MPPT wins. But if you have a small system - say 100 watts - then MPPT will get you 10 added watts. Again you have to balance the added cost of the MPPT controller against the added value of 10 watts of capacity, and MPPT loses. If you really really need those extra 10 watts, then it is cheaper to buy a 110-watt or 120-watt panel.

Stick with a simple controller such as a PWM.

For more info, check the Arizona Wind and Sun website http://www.solar-electric.com/, which sells both kinds of controllers.

Bill

[Lesherp]

Thanks for the information Bill. I had seen some discussion in other threads on this but must have misinterpreted conventional wisdom on this. I thought most were going with MPPT. Interestedly I called Arizona Wind and Sun yesterday and the fellow I talked to recommended I go with a $400 MPPT Morningstar controller over the Blue Sky MPPT controller I was considering if I wanted to be satisfied with the system. He told me he could not recommend going any other way even after I told him that that additional cost would price me out of buying. When I was done talking with him I was unconvinced and confused. I told him I was considering two panels with different watts. So this may have been a reason for his recommendation as he said one of the things this controller would do is equalize the power coming from the panels. Wouldn't they all do that? I now wonder if using two panels of different watts would create a problem if I decided to use a WPM controller. It looks like I need more information. I am not sure I want to call them back as I am not confident I am getting good advice. Any thoughts?

If I am reading correctly the panels I am considering I will be under 15 amps. I just looked at the WPM Morningstar controllers (just one brand the carry but from what I can tell a very respected company) I see two that look like they might work. They are both about the same price with different features and I am not sure how to determine the best one. Any suggestions?
http://www.solar-electric.com/modubachco251.html
http://www.solar-electric.com/pros15solcha.html

[scrubjaysnest]

We have the sunsaver 10 on our two 80 watt panels. It worked great last year out west where could easily reach the 10 amp capacity. Here on the east coast the best we have seen is 9 amps. Even under heavy cloud cover the two panels will produce about 1 to 2 amps which handles our slight needs. I over sized for us on the east coast because of the sun/shade mix we typically see. Ours was a kit from ebay, two panels, 30 feet of 12awg wire and the controller. I replaced the wire with 10 awg marine grade between the panels and the controller. From the controller to the batteries I used 8 awg marine grade. While on the trip last year I connected 1 panel without the controller to a friends camper. I used 15 feet on the 12 awg that came with the system. We monitored his batteries and after 4 hours in full sun in Telluride Co; he had a better charge then with his Honda 2000 genset.

[rumbleweed]

I am surprised with the comments from wind and sun. They have always been great to work with. You should not have issues with mixed panel capacities as long as they are both 12V panels ( vs a 24V and 12V mix). Bill is correct on the controller. The MPPT is more efficient but on a small system adding a larger panel vs more efficient controller is more economical. One suggestion. Get a controller with a capacity a little higher than what you need now. This allows for the addition of another panel in the future. The cost of a slightly larger controller is less than the cost of a second controller if you expand later.

[Bill]

OK, I'm confused as well. Your conversation with Wind-Sun makes no sense to me. By the way, are you sure he didn't mistake your two-different-panel statement to mean two-different-batteries? One of the controllers you linked to was a two-battery controller, for which you have no use.

To try to reduce the complexity of the situation, I spent an hour on the Wind-Sun site looking at controllers. This should be a pretty good cross-section.

MPPT controllers:
Blue Sky 2512I - 25 amp - $182
Morningstar SunSaver15 - 15 amp $223.60
BlueSky SolarBoost SB2000E - 25 amp $253.50 - includes digital meter

PWM controllers:
Xantrex C12 - 12 amp - $77.22 - LED "meter"
Sun Saver SS20L - 20 amp - $78.00
Xantrex C35 - 35 amp - $83.54 - LED "meter"
Morningstar ProStar15 - 15 amp - $85.80

Except as noted, none of these includes a meter, though a meter is often an extra-cost option. I wouldn't bother with a meter unless you are a geek like me.
ALL of these controllers have four stages of charging - bulk, absorption, float, and equalize. As Wind-Sun says in one of its articles, some manufacturers refer to this situation as "four stage charging", while some call it "3 stage charging plus equalize." They are exactly the same.

Having read through all of the specifications and manuals for all of these controllers, the only significant difference I can find is that the MPPT controllers will extract "up to 30% (daily average 10-15%) more power from your panels".

All of this assumes that your panels are nominally 12-volt, not 24-volt, and that you are charging a single battery (or battery bank if you have 6-volt batteries). Using different size panels, or different manufacturer panels, makes no difference.

For an RV application such as we are talking about, I cannot imagine why anyone would recommend (or buy) a $225 MPPT controller over an $80 PWM controller.

Final question to the group - does anyone here keep up with the Wind-Sun solar forum? I used to, but I gave it up several years ago.

Bill

[brulaz]

...
For an RV application such as we are talking about, I cannot imagine why anyone would recommend (or buy) a $225 MPPT controller over an $80 PWM controller.
...


Bill, you are letting your financial good sense over-ride your inner geek.

What I would like is an MPPT controller complete with computer inter-connect and software to monitor every aspect of the system. Anything else is a mere appliance. :D

[Bill]

Ahh, Bruce - geeks always have too many projects, and we have to spread our available funds widely! But believe it or not, full networking capabilty is available on a couple of these controllers

Bill

[rumbleweed]

Yes but to be of real value, it should have bluetooth capability so it can be monitored real time by your smartphone as you rest in your hammock

[Lesherp]

Thank you all for your time and efforts here. I told the man at Wind-Sun I was looking at getting two 12V panels one 85 watts and the other 140 watts. One to be mounted and one to be portable and told him I was considering the MPPT Blue Sky 2512I - 25 amp controller and wanted to know if this would work. I never said anything about my batteries. I can't imagine why he would think I needed the $400 Morningstar TriStar 45 Amp MPPT Solar Charge Controller if any controller would work with panels with two different watt ratings. Maybe he misunderstood me, maybe his first day at work, who knows.

I am still leaning towards having the versatility of a roof mounted panel for charging in transit and a portable panel I could deploy when clouds or parking in the shade limits its output. They would have a total of 225 watts with 12.75 amps. and if I understand correctly there would be no problem putting them together using the Morningstar ProStar15 - 15 amp.

I have limited electrical and wiring knowledge. Wiring one panel seems straight forward. Wiring two panels requires them to be connected and one wire from each panel running to the controller. When hooking up my portable panel it seems like I would have to figure out a way to disconnect one of the wires running from the mounted panel to the controller, connect it to the portable panel and connect the other wire from the portable panel to the controller. I suppose I could just have a connector terminal on the end of both wires and bolt them together but there must be a better way. Lol, like I said limited knowledge. Any suggestions?

I am still weighing the pros and cons of roof mounted, portable or a combination. I have two 6 V batteries and a clipper battery monitor. Do you think parked in a sunny location and with conservative energy consumption the140 watt roof mounted panel would be sufficient without deploying the second panel ? How effective do you think whatever I might be getting from the 140 watt panel in partial sun or shade and the 85 watt panel in sun will be?

[Bill]

Wait a minute. The wind-sum web site confirms that panels above 120 watts are quite often "high voltage panels", meaning 24 volts or more. During your conversation with Wind-Sun, unless you identified the specific panel you have in mind, he might have assumed it would be a 24-volt panel. As I mentioned above, many controllers, including the 2512I and others in my list, won't accept a 24-volt panel (although the Tri-Star 45 amp controller will). In addition, although you can mix 12-volt panels of different wattages, and you can mix 24-volt panels of different wattages, I don't think you can mix a 24-volt panel with a 12-volt panel. You need to check this before you go further.

Why don't you tell us what you have in mind? Until you do, we are kind of shooting in the dark.

Bill

[Lesherp]

These are the panels I am considering.

http://www.solar-electric.com/kykd140wasom1.html
http://www.solar-electric.com/so85wa12voso.html

[rumbleweed]

You can hard wire the roof mounted to the controller through a "Y". Base of the "Y" gets hardwired to the controller. One top branch of the "Y" gets hard wired to the roof mounted panel. You then add a low resistance good quality connector to the other top leg of the "Y". The remote panel then plugs in there. I am using the morning star pro star 30 ( extra capacity if I need it) at home with a total of 280 watts of 12v panels. I have had good luck with it.

[Bill]

These are the panels I am considering.

http://www.solar-electric.com/kykd140wasom1.html
http://www.solar-electric.com/so85wa12voso.html

OK, good, you've done your homework. Both of these are 12-volt panels, and they should mix just fine. We're back to the original question - why an expensive MPPT controller instead of a less expensive PWM controller. I still have no idea.

Bill

[Lesherp]

Bill,

I am thinking he may just not be very good at his job. I may not have specified that they were both 12 V or he could have assumed a 140 Watt would be 24. You would think he would have advised me to go with two 12 watt panels if he thought that was what I was suggesting. Maybe he had little experience with small RV type projects and just always recommends that controller. From what I am reading here it sounds like it was misinformation. Do you think there is any chance he knew what he was talking about?

Rumbleweed,

I kind of have a basic understanding of electricity but little experience working with it. Can you give me a little more information about the y's and connectors you are suggesting I use. I am not at all sure what kind of Y you are talking about. I understand it would split the wiring allowing two panels to be plugged in to the controller, but I don't have a clue what to look for. I would not know a low resistance good quality connector from a poor quality high resistant one. Can you give me more specific information, like a brand name? If I am understanding you correctly this would wire the panels in series rather than parallel. I think most of the diagrams I have seen wired to WPM controllers have been parallel. Does it matter?

[Bill]

No, Rumbleweed will agree the panels get wired in parallel. Think of a big letter "Y". The + (plus) terminal of one panel goes to one of the top branches of the "Y", and the + terminal of the other panel goes to the other top branch of the "Y". The stem of the "Y" goes to the + terminal of the controller.

Now make another "Y", and do it again on the - (minus) side of everything.

Bill

[rumbleweed]

Bill is right. You don't buy a "Y" you just connect wires in a "Y" I will try to draw this up later. There are many good quality polarized connectors. Power Pole is one example,

Bob

[Panamapat]

I would like to have solar before our big trip in May. We camp a lot where there is no electric hookups and hate the noise of the generator. I think I have read everything here but am not sure what to buy or exactly how it works.

I’m a big fan of solar power and have a medium size setup at our remote cabin (2-240 watt panels, MPPT controller, 4-6v golf cart batteries, Trimetric battery monitor). When we got the 2720SL, we wanted to camp in remote areas but did not want to use our backup Honda generator we have at the cabin. We ended up taking a combination of changes to maximize our ability to boondock with our Trailmanor.

1) Batteries – we replaced the two tired 6-V golf car batteries with new ones from Sams club (220 A-H) as the older ones capacity was down to around 100 amp hours.

2) Lighting Battery Load – replaced all of the incandescent light bulbs in the camper with LED bulbs from Amazon and cut the lighting load by 90%. (from 10 amps down to 1 amp with all lights on)

3) Heater battery load – the heater pulls around 6 amps and with cold weather really draws down the batteries as it runs quite a bit. We added an Olympian Wave-6 catalytic heater which uses no battery power.

4) Battery Recharging – two approaches; 1) added a 100 watt portable solar panel and 2) added a dedicated heavy duty charging circuit (using welding cables) from the 4Runner battery/alternator all the way back to the 2720SL battery bank.

5) Battery monitoring – added a Trimetric to keep an eye on the battery charge level – really takes the guesswork out of the state of charge.

The combination has worked well for us. We typically use no more than 40 amp-hours in a 24 hour period. The solar panel usually recharges the battery so long as we have full sun most of the day (max 6 amps per hour). With no sun, we can go around 3 days before we need to recharge the battery as we don’t like to let the battery discharge much more than 50%.

When the 4Runner is plugged into Trailmanor via the heavy duty plug and charging cables, the battery recharges as much as 45 amps per hour with engine idling. The 4Runner consumes around 1/3 gallon per hour idling. I’ve not had to use this option very often as solar usually does the trick. This option is also handy for fully recharging theTrailmanor battery bank when towing. Even with the refrigerator running in battery mode (10 amp draw), the battery bank usually arrives fully recharged.

I can provide more details and pictures if interested.

Pat

[Lesherp]

I now am considering another option. While I was doing some research I ran into a company called AM Solar that has free shipping and is only about 100 miles from where I live. They have a 150 watt panel and their rocker foot mount comes with the 3M tape (don't have to buy more than I need) and it looks like this mount would make it easy to dismount the panel for portable use when that would be advantageous. I think 150 watts could very well be all I need and would give me the flexibility of leaving it mounted or setting it up where there is sun. The disadvantage of the 150 watt panel over what I was considering, a fixed and a smaller portable panel, is that it is 58" X 26" and 26 lbs. It would always require 2 people if you wanted to make it potable. However, I would get a controller that would allow me to add a smaller portable panel later if I decide I need it. I do have a few questions though.

If I put handles on each end it seems like with the trailer down it would not be that difficult for two people to reach up and take it down. I have never handled one of these panels. Does anyone see any problem moving and setting it up??

I am planning on mounting the controller in the battery compartment at the rear of my TM. I am thinking I will use 10/2 AWG tinned marine wire. How much wire will I need for the run from the rear shell to the compartment??

I am considering using the cord management kit that hareyrv used with power pole connecters at the panel for connecting a 50' wire for portable use.

http://trailmanorowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11022

I would like to know how others have run and attached their wire to the trailer. Do you think I could somehow use this wire running to the battery box and add an additional length with power pole connectors for portable use??

I can't figure out any functional difference between the Morningstar ProStar controller and the Sun Saver model. It looks like I can get the 20 amp Sun Saver for a little less than the 15 amp ProStar. Would one of these better meet my needs??

http://www.solar-electric.com/pros15solcha.html
http://www.solar-electric.com/ss-20l.html

AM solar caries the Sun Saver and states that can be mounted in the battery compartment. I am hoping to get everything I can from them and save on shipping.

The 150 watt panels have tyco connectors (not MC4) does this present any problems I am not aware of??

http://www.amsolar.com/home/amr_1363129012196/page_33_20/go150_solar_panel.html

Hopefully at some point soon I will figure out what I want and how to do it and actually get started. Thanks for everyone's help and suggestions. :new_Eyecr

[Redhawk]

From what I understand the MPPT controllers are more efficient , they made sense when panels were more expensive, but now with the prices way down per watt, they aren't necessary unless you are limited to a smaller panel. I installed a Prostar 15 and Kyocera 140 panel last year and the performance was impressive compared to the factory 85 watter with the cheap controller. I made sure that I could add another panel later if I wanted, but that would be crazy for me. I don't use any inverters.

[nightowlgk]

As soon as I get time to go out camping with my TM, I will report on my 4 x Unisolar PVL-68 68W, 12V Thinfilm Roof Laminate (PVL-68T) = $396.00 TOTAL..... that I got form Solar Blvd.

[Lesherp]

I am looking forward to what you find as I have not purchased anything yet.

I am still thinking I will go with the 150 watt panel and configuration I described in post #32. However, it looks like the wire management kit channel can be opened and closed. So now I am thinking of running 25 ' of wire from the panel to the controller and using this same wire for portable use. If I go with the MC4 connectors I could always use different wire if turns out to be too inconvenient, or ad an extension of wire if too short.

[rickst29]

Most panels put out around 17V taking into account loss between the panel and the controller. The controller then takes adjusts the voltage down to the proper charging level. Any drop between the controller and battery ( caused by wire length between them) results in a further drop in charging voltage that impacts charging capability. If you park your TM in the shade and want your panels to be efficient, I suggest portable. A simple inexpensive collapsible support can be built from PVC.
Morningstar "ProStar" series charge controllers (they're PWM controllers) have a scheme to assure proper voltage at the battery, as long as the voltage coming in from your panels is sufficient:

In addition to the usual remote temperature probe (purchased separately), they provide a pair of terminals which may be used to measure voltage at the battery. (This pair is separate from the high-current charging leads). You can use wires as small as #18, because the current which the Controller allows to occur on this "measurement" path is extremely low.

The ProStar, upon seeing some amount of voltage loss between its output and the actual voltage being applied at the battery, as measured on the parallel "measurement" circuit responds by increasing it's output voltage. This causes the correct charging voltage differential to be applied at the battery, and come back to the Controller on the parallel "measurement" wires.

It's a Cool trick, but they make you pay for it. (The ProStar PWM charge controllers cost quite a bit more than the Sunsaver PWMs.)

[LoveToCamp]

Last weekend I installed a new 100w solar panel (http://www.ebay.com/itm/COMPLETE-KIT-100-W-Watt-100W-100Watts-Photovoltaic-PV-Solar-Panel-12V-RV-Boat-/400320440364?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d34f5282c) ($221). It was late evening when I got it connected (started early evening), yet there was still good charge coming in. I was in the shade between houses. The controller only has lights, no digital readout, but my Charging light was steady, meaning full charging in process. My battery lights only had one of three lit.

The next late-morning, I went and checked it. All three battery lights were on, indicating full charge. I have a Battery Bug on my battery, and it was showing 14.4 v.

I am very happy with this, as it sure looks like it will keep my single 12v battery charged for weeks at a time (I will dry camp most of the time). Our biggest draw is the heater fan, and I won't use that much during the summer (some nights it will get down to 30°, I am sure), but winter camping didn't drain my battery for two consecutive nights.

I have put LED bulbs in, so we don't use much electricity. Oh, wait! I got DW a Samsung Note tablet for Christmas, so I will have to re-charge that daily with my inverter (350w car-power style), as she is hooked on some games. Guess I should have gotten two panels!

The first picture is the panel, along with the channel I used to run the wire down the side. I sealed the front and back seam with silicone, just to keep most of the rain off the mounting tape.

The second picture is the controller, which is covered by the front shell while in-transit, and is sheltered by the front bed when camping.

[Lesherp]

LoveToCamp that seems like a great price.

I just finished installing mine today. I am heading to the beach on Sunday and the sun is supposed to be out while we are there. I can't wait to see how my 150 W panel performs. I did end up mounting mine on the back of the TM with attachments that will make it is easy to remove and move into the sun if necessary. Gave myself 25' of wire with MC4 connectors and another 25' extension I can add if I need it. I set it up so the extra wire stores in the same area as the cord that connects you to shore power and runs up into my battery area above it.

I'll get some pictures taken and post them in my pictures and albums for anyone that might be considering a mounted panel that is portable. I think it is going to work well.

[rickst29]

I'll be using three different 'Morningstar' models as examples. Suppose that you buy the Panels which LoveToCamp selected, but you buy a pair of them (@ 100 watts each). BTW, I am seriously considering this exact purchase. ;)

WindyNation's panel specifications show Vmpp (voltage at the maximum power point) of 18.00 Volts, with current of 5.56 amps.

Using a PWM controller, you get all of the current (minus wire losses, of course), but your Controller will apply power to the batteries at only 14.5 volts. 14.5 * 5.56 * 2 panels = 161 watts. With (possibly) further power losses on the battery cable.

Using a Morningstar "Sunsaver MPPT", you would connect the panels in series (with Vmpp at about 36 volts, and the current cut in half on the panel-to-Controller leads). Power from the panels is about 36 * 5.56 = 200 watts, minus a (smaller!) voltage drop at lower current. This cheaper MPPT is limited to 15 Amps on the battery side, so it's maximum power output capability is 14.5 * 15 amps = (217 watts). With just two panels, totaling 200 watts, this exceeds the capability of the panels - you get all 200 watts, before losing some energy along the battery cables.

But this particular MPPT has only 17 watts of "headroom" left. After your panels (or Panel, you could use a higher-powered 24V panel with this MPPT) you would need to upgrade to a Controller with more battery current capability. (Assuming, of course, that your batteries can accept higher charge current without damage.) For more than 217 watts, you'd either go back to a high current PWM, or move "up" to a really expensive MPPT (in the Morningstar product line, probably the Tristar MPPT 45).
- - - - -

In this example of 12V panels which could be used either way, MPPT provides 24% more power under standard "peak" conditions. That's nearly half of a panel, with no installation issues (in fact, the Series installation is slightly LESS complicated.) Because the panels are wired in Series for an MPPT, there is also the possibility of putting at least some energy into the batteries at lower panel voltage (shady conditions,and morning/evening hours). For example, when the panels have both fallen to 12 Volts, the MPPT can use the 24 Volt combined Voltage to generate at least some current into the batteries (at 14.5V). The PWM controller has to simply disconnect. However, don't treat this as a big factor: generally speaking, in lower-light conditions, the power output goes down via loss of current, rather than a loss of voltage.

[brulaz]

...
For more than 217 watts, you'd either go back to a high current PWM, or move "up" to a really expensive MPPT (in the Morningstar product line, probably the Tristar MPPT 45).
...


Or the 30 amp Rogue 3024, designed and "hand-crafted" in Oregon so it works really well in low light conditions.:p
http://www.roguepowertech.com/products/mpt3024.htm

Actually I see now he has a newer model coming out: MPT3048

This thing, and a couple of solar panels, has been on my geek wish list for years. One of these days/months/years ...

[rickst29]

Fascinating, and that upcoming device would meet my preferences beautifully. It would provide lots of "headroom" for a bigger array. It's now Bookmarked into my group of "possible things for TM".

It's very nice to see that it will include remote battery voltage sensing, that's an unusual feature. (You still loose and "waste" some power along the charge cables to the battery, but if there is extra power available at the controller - while staying within battery charging temperature limits - then this provides for a more effective charging cycle.) Also, more "complete" control and display capabilities, without an expensive remote monitor, might help to keep the total costs down.

[Lesherp]

We arrived at the beach with a fully charge battery even though it was an overcast day. Previously when we traveled the refrigerator running on DC it would drain the battery. We had full sun every day for the 3 days we were there. We ran the heater every morning . It would take 35 minutes to get it warmed up and left it on another hour or so. We even ran it one evening. Used lights (read until about 10 PM), hot water heater (even took showers), water pump, and listened to the radio quite a bit. The batteries were always fully charged by evening. Pictures of the instillation are in my albums.

At this point I consider the solar instillation a compete success. :cool:

[tgpmd1]

2) Lighting Battery Load – replaced all of the incandescent light bulbs in the camper with LED bulbs from Amazon and cut the lighting load by 90%. (from 10 amps down to 1 amp with all lights on)

Which lights did you purchase from Amazon?

[Panamapat]

Which lights did you purchase from Amazon?

Best ones - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002BMXVFG/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


For outdoor lights - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007638HZE/ref=wms_ohs_product?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Lesherp]

I could not be happier with my solar. Two weeks out and full batteries by the end of every day. I am at the Grand Canyon now and am only getting about 2 hours of direct sun a day and still full batteries. I sure don't miss running my generator.

[rickst29]

And in related news, my front shell install is running - in 80% shade! (There's almost no Amps until the sun gets higher, of course). Pictures in my "Installation on the Front Shell, Questions" Thread. Here. (http://www.trailmanorowners.com/forum/showpost.php?p=102576&postcount=9)

Are you taking any of the trails going down from the South side? If you intend to, but haven't done it yet, then I advise the going down the Kaibob (less crowds, better views) but coming up the Bright Angel - because it's got water for the return trip, and the Kaibob doesn't. ;)

[Lesherp]

We are on the north rim. Hiked Kiabab trail yesterday part way down. One more day and off to Mesa Verde.

[LoveToCamp]

As posted earlier in this thread, I installed a Windy Nation 100w system (http://www.windynation.com/products/solar/solar-panels/100-watt-solar-panel-10-amp-solar-charge-controller) earlier this spring. Just finished a week in Utah. What a great system!

We had a full battery (one 12v) every day by noon (earliest I looked at it). Had the Fantastic Fan running about 16 hours a day, along with charging DW's tablet and two cell phones (she just can't seem to get away from electronics, even when there is no cell signal), and evening lighting (LED bulbs). Could have used more electricity, if we had anything that would use it. But, with no regard to electricity conservation, we never were concerned with using all of our power.

I paid $219 for my system, but it is now listed for $170. I highly recommend the system!

[Lesherp]

That sounds like a great deal! The 150 W system I put in cost me over twice that. I think I could have gotten by with less W's but I live in Oregon and will be using it a lot in cloudy conditions.

Just got back from 6 week trip. We had many limited sun sites with a number partly cloudy days and always had full batteries at the end of the day. Ran the heater almost every morning and did not try and conserve electricity. Some mornings I know the fan on the heater ran for over an hour. DW used her hair thing. We charged the computer a lot. We also ran the pump often to transfer fresh water with the bridge as we never had hookups. A nice hot shower when "camping" (hardly seems like camping anymore) was one of the reasons we got the TM. This trip convinced me that solar was worth the effort and cost.

It will be interesting to see how it does with only overcast skies. We are in the blue sky season now. It is hard to beat Oregon in July, Aug. and Sept. Low to mid 80's and sunny! We are off to the river and mountains in a couple of weeks.

Boy, I don't see how anyone could go wrong with the system you got.

[LoveToCamp]

Lesherp, sounds like you have a system that works well for you, also!

I am so glad I put the solar panel on! I didn't have to use the heater (it only got down to low-60s at night), but I will this fall. Not having to worry about running out of power when dry camping is wonderful!

Now, if only there was a good way to get more water without hauling it!

[kieranmullen]

I am wary of screwing anything in to the top so I did not get the moutning brakets for the panels. It seems the largest area of free space is opposite the antenna on the front.
Questions
1)To best to affix? Liquid nails?
2)How to route cable down? thanks!

[rickst29]

They allow air to flow underneath the Solar Panels (to keep them cool). Of course, you use screws to attach the panels to the individual brackets - but don't use them to attach the bracket base to the TM roof. How to attach them without screws?

Per this Thread, other Threads, and my own installation, and 3M's explicit recommendation: 3M double-sided "VHB" tape, type "R32". There are many different types, corresponding to different amounts of strength versus flexibility. "R32", relatively thin, with high shear strength, is probably the best choice. Buy it on EBay - whatever length x width you need for all of your mounts.

For making cables "pretty" and wind-resistant on one of the vertical runs down the side of a shell, I used a length of plastic "cable concealing" mini-conduit from Home Depot: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Wiremold-Legrand-5-ft-Non-Metallic-Hinged-Cord-Cover-C50/100005270http://. You can use polyurethane glue, or a few tiny screws into the bottom of the open runner, to make sure that it stays put. Then run the cables inside, and snap it shut. You will want to use a "union connector" piece, as reinforcement, at the bottom - otherwise the channel will get torn open by opening and closing the TM.

At the bottom of the Shell, following TM's lead, I tied the "+" and "Ground" cables together with loops of electric tape, creating a 2-wire "bundle". Then, I tied that bundle to the lift arm, using several cable ties. My installation pictures are at: http://www.trailmanorowners.com/forum/showpost.php?p=102764&postcount=9

[kieranmullen]

Thanks for the info. I will get back to home depot and see if they have that tape or an auto parts store.

Any good source for a mounting bracket? The solar place is all the way on the other side of town.

Also does one have to do a home run on the undercarriage (I imagine zip ties would work) or can you tap anywhere there is 12V ? (sorry if it is a stupid question)

[nightowlgk]

My blue sky 2520i mppt unit w/ trimetric meeter is showing 8amps in full CLOUDS! Incredible. Full sun:18amps.

4x68w. Unisolar peel and stick modules.

[kieranmullen]

where that total system cost you? Do you have any pictures of your setup?

[nightowlgk]

Check out my unisolar thread. Can't accomplish a link at this time. But the pic links are there.

First trip out with the 2720 and new solar panel setup. Very good results.

1 x Blue Sky Solar Boost 2512i 25A, 12V 3 Stage Charge Controller () = $178.06
4 x Unisolar PVL-68 68W, 12V Thinfilm Roof Laminate (PVL-68T) = $396.00
------------------------------------------------------
Federal Express (1 x 50lbs) (Home Delivery (1 days)): $19.82
Sub-Total: $574.06
Tax: $44.49
Total: $638.37

Plus my 2 FullRiver 6v 200Ah batteries. Bought slightly used for $200. These are held down to the floor under the dinette.
Trimetric 2025RV Battery System Monitor w/Shunt: 500 Amp , Cable: 35 Ft. Meter to Shunt Cable Price: $199.50 for all.

2- 4-way MC3 Y cables for the panels in parallel.

Total system cost w/ batteries and misc. cables: $1300.

When I arrived at the campground the Trimetric showed 43% battery power remaining. I had a phantom draw - TM closed up since December.

Would that be the Carbon Monoxide Detector??

I forgot to turn off my master switch that I just installed under the batteries, reachable from the outside.

One day of sun brought the batteries back to 100%!! Average power generated 13-16 amps. I'm very happy.

There is no noticeable wear from the TM roof seal on the panel from 4 hours of driving.

IMG_1527.JPG

IMG_1562.JPG

IMG_0423 (Copy).JPG

IMG_0428 (Copy) (2).JPG
__________________
2002: 2720 (3rd owner, garage kept)
TV: 2006 Honda Odyssey w/ WD hitch, tranny cooler
Past: 1987 Coachman Class C
Mostly dry camping

[rickst29]

My blue sky 2520i mppt unit w/ trimetric meeter is showing 8amps in full CLOUDS! Incredible. Full sun:18amps.

4x68w. Unisolar peel and stick modules.
Fantastic performance, indeed!

[kieranmullen]

I saw the pics on the other thread. http://www.trailmanorowners.com/forum/showpost.php?p=101861&postcount=10

Looks like you mounted those 6V under the couch or something. It is a nice storage area for all of our junk! I would be wary of the roof seal and I would not feel secure enough doing it. The flexible solar does seem to be quite long.

Does one need to do a run all the way back to the battery to charge it or can one put a charge in via any 12V line?

[kieranmullen]

Confirmed with volt meter? I was told they are wildly inaccurate.

Fantastic performance, indeed!

[rickst29]

Thanks for the info. I will get back to home depot and see if they have that tape or an auto parts store.

Any good source for a mounting bracket? The solar place is all the way on the other side of town.

Also does one have to do a home run on the undercarriage (I imagine zip ties would work) or can you tap anywhere there is 12V ? (sorry if it is a stupid question)
1. Home Depot, and any generic auto parts store, will NOT have this tape. They might have too-weak tapes for sticking on accessories (e.g. rear-view mirrors); don't buy them. Go EBay, and buy either an entire roll or by-the-piece. Here's a by-the-piece offer from ebay - enough for two panels. Basically, It's the predecessor of type "R32": http://www.ebay.com/itm/3M-VHB-9473-DOUBLE-STICK-TAPE-2-X-6-STRIPS-10PCS-/400517994715

2. The Best Solar bracket set is (again) an EBay item: www.ebay.com/itm/Solar-Mounting-Z-bracket-Set-/271151594191. Take special note that this one has a base (against the TM roof) which is twice as large as most others. You want that! Each requires a 4 inch x 2 inch piece of tape, so your tape purchase (#1, VHB type "R32") needs to be 2" width. You will throw away the longer self-piercing screws, using tape instead (or keep them for some unrelated future project). The shorter aluminum bolts, washers, and nuts, attach the mounts to your solar panel frame.

3. Please excuse me if I misunderstand what you said - but your talk of a "Home Run" sounds as if you imagine the panel output ground wires to go directly to TM frame ground - they do not! Both of the panel output wires must go into a Solar Charge Controller (expensive MPPT, nearly 95% efficient, or cheap PWM, which wastes 30-40% of the peak output power.) The Controller output wires go battery terminals ("+" and negative ground). The controller runs with balanced current in/out on each of the two pairs; using a TM "frame ground" from the controller would constitute a wiring error.
I used a cheap $25 PWM controller, from EBay seller "Renogy" (the seller from whom you are getting the brackets; before purchasing, you might note the feedback rating and number transactions by this seller). This one came as part of my "complete 200W kit": http://www.ebay.com/itm/30A-PWM-Solar-Charge-Controller-360W-Solar-Panel-Regulator-12V-24V-W-Timer-30I-/281074783069 As Nightowlgk noted, his MPPT - and it's one of the cheaper ones - costs close to $200. But it does get 40% more of the panel output power to the batteries and TM power-consuming appliances, approaching 95% efficiency.

[rickst29]

Confirmed with volt meter? I was told they are wildly inaccurate.You saw that he's using a high-quality Trimetic meter with shunt - absolutely not a $3 Harbor Freight multimeter. ;)

[kieranmullen]

Thanks for the brackets. If we were talking about just using tape, it would appear better to go with some brackets that go the full length of the panel instead of 4 clips that are only 4 inches each no?

I have a PWM controller but I have read that it does not make much sense on a 1 battery setup. I was talking about a home run all the way back to the battery is that needed or can one tap the 12v line anywhere?

[rickst29]

Thanks for the brackets. If we were talking about just using tape, it would appear better to go with some brackets that go the full length of the panel instead of 4 clips that are only 4 inches each no??In theory, yes. But full-length mounting brackets are ferociously expensive, and 32 square inches of this VHB tape (pressed in well, and against clean and chemical-free surfaces) creates an extremely strong hold. If you look over at my thread, you'll see that I was "chicken" and added another bracket pair to each panel (total of 6 brackets). That was unnecessary.
I have a PWM controller but I have read that it does not make much sense on a 1 battery setup. I was talking about a home run all the way back to the battery is that needed or can one tap the 12v line anywhere? You have read something scribbled by an incompetent idiot. Most of these panels put more than 17 volts (mine put out about 19 Volts) and you will destroy your battery very quickly, by charging it with such voltage.
That's what these charge controllers do: They cut down the voltage going into the battery (to about 13.6V within "trickle charge" mode, or about 14.5V in a time-limited or temperature-limited "bulk charge" mode).
The PWM controllers work like a incandescent light dimmer: they turn output power on and off, thousands of times per second, so that the battery sees a much lower "overall" voltage. (But, at home on 120VAC, your light dimmers only switch about 100 times per second. An electric stove, running at 240VAC but dialed down to any setting except "Hi", does the exact same thing, but switches much less often - you can hear the clicks when it turns on and off, every few seconds. PWM Solar Charge Controllers switch much faster.) Whatever power your panels create, during those thousands/millions of short time periods when the charge controller has disconnected, is lost and wasted.
Smart "MPPT" controllers work very differently. If the battery isn't fully charged, then they will take whatever power the panels create (e.g., 5 amps @ 19V = 95W) and try to convert it all into more current at less voltage. For example, in "bulk" mode, a "perfect" MPPT (100% efficient) would convert that power flow into about 6.55 amps @ 14.5V - giving all 95 watts to the battery. The PWM, in contrast, gives only 5 Amps at 14.5V (about 72 watts, a loss of 24%).
The Solar Charge Controller "+" terminal needs to have a big fuse and needs to go directly to the battery. If you "tap into" some other power line, you create TWO power sources on that circuit (the TM battery via the DC Distribution panel and fuse, PLUS the Solar). Under daylight conditions, that wire will be running current into and through through the DC Distribution panel "backwards" - and the fuse will no longer be effective. (For example - suppose that it is the wire between the 20A fuse for the water heater, and the water heater itself. The Water Heater if it develops a problem, can receive up to 20A from the TM side, PLUS whatever power your panel(s) put out - and the TM fuse would not blow.

It's as if your 20A fuse was replaced by a 40A fuse. Don't do that! *
- - - -
In addition, your TM would remain "hot" when you disconnect the battery terminal and 120VAC cord - it's easier to remember the solar disconnect when the PWM Controller "+" terminal is staring you right in the face, on the same battery terminal as the TM's own connector. (Put the Solar terminal on top of the TM terminal, and you CAN'T fail to take it off. :rolleyes:)
*The Fridge is a special exception, because it has an internal 20A fuse of its own. But even going into the Fridge, you would need to fuse each possible wire at a maximum of 20A, and such a "bridge" is complicated to configure correctly. Anway, it's skanky, less safe, and thoroughly unnecessary. You already need the PWM Controller to avoid killing the battery, I strongly recommend that you do it the right way.

[LoveToCamp]

To mount my panel on my roof, I purchased a pair of 3-foot aluminum angle brackets, 1" sides. I wanted a longer mounted surface than rickst29 has. I got the brackets at Home Depot. (Had to order the 3M tape online.)

Yes, you need to do a home run with the wires from your panel(s). You will run those to your controller, then run wires from your controller directly to your battery terminals. Any other way can harm your controller, or eliminate most of the current from the panel to the battery.

I put this kit (http://www.windynation.com/products/solar/solar-panel-kits/100-watt-solar-panel-complete-kit-rvs-boats-and-grid) on my 2417, and had no power worries for a week of dry camping. Will leave tomorrow for another week, and have no concerns about power.

A pic of my installation. You can see the mounting rails and the cable channel.

http://www.trailmanorowners.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=161&pictureid=852

[kieranmullen]

There are about 300 Types of VHB tape from 3M What I have found out that the 1" size with the firm foam instead of a conformable foam has a higher tensile strength. The confirmable foam is good for wrapping around objects. A 5 yard roll will then drop from 80 to $30 a roll. I wanted to post here for consensus.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/search.shtml?BV_UseBVCookie=No&searchQuery=15c283&op=search&Ntt=15c283%7C15c283&N=0&GlobalSearch=true&sst=subset&typeaheadSearch=

I can pickup this week from local grainger supply. NAPA does have 3m but not VHB.


Per this Thread, other Threads, and my own installation, and 3M's explicit recommendation: 3M double-sided "VHB" tape, type "R32". There are many different types, corresponding to different amounts of strength versus flexibility. "R32", relatively thin, with high shear strength, is probably the best choice. Buy it on EBay - whatever length x width you need for all of your mounts.

[rickst29]

Your have made an excellent choice, although I would have bought #4930 (the stronger, more expensive one) in small quantity (precut) from Ebay. Type 4930 is the predecessor of Type R32. "Thinner is better" for tensile strength, and 3M makes VHB tapes all the way down to .15 thickness. But a tiny bit more thickness allows for roof flexing when raising or lowering the shells. Shear strength is pretty much the opposite of "shear flexibility", but you need only a tiny bit of flexibility - and LOTS of strength. IMO, .25ml (which we have both used) is optimal.

The main goal is to prevent the panels from slipping and then falling off sideways. There is almost no issue with the panels being pulled directly upwards (tensile strength), because the forces while driving, or in strong wind, are sideways. Tensile strength tends to be greater than shear strength- but with this tape, especially the thin versions, their values go up (or down) together.

[kieranmullen]

I ended up getting a roll of 4950 on ebay. I am going with the aluminum rails instead of the brackets so I needed more tape.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/140967252422?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/3M-Double-Sided-VHB-Tape-24A642?Pid=search

[sandy3124]

I have also been think about installing a solar system. Could i place my batteries in the large storage area at the rear of my TM then allowing me to make the panels portable from the rear of the TM. My fuse panel and breakers are at the rear of the camper anyway and i also have a huge storage area under the bunk that can be accessible from the inside. Everything could be wired and mounted within a couple of feet of the batteries. Then when I am traveling the panels can be store in the compartments.

[scrubjaysnest]

I have also been think about installing a solar system. Could i place my batteries in the large storage area at the rear of my TM then allowing me to make the panels portable from the rear of the TM. My fuse panel and breakers are at the rear of the camper anyway and i also have a huge storage area under the bunk that can be accessible from the inside. Everything could be wired and mounted within a couple of feet of the batteries. Then when I am traveling the panels can be store in the compartments.
You don't say which model TM you have. On our 2720SL we have both batteries in the back. There is also a thread discussing a battery mod in the rear of one of the larger models. So it should be doable.

[Padgett]

Just a question I have not seen mentioned. Central Florida gets a lot of thinderstorms ("Central Florida's frequency of summer thunderstorms equals that of the world's maximum thunderstorm areas: Lake Victoria region of equatorial Africa and the middle of the Amazon basin."). Some of these storms have hail, some large (in thutty yars in Orlando I have had more hail damage than wind). How do solar panels hold up or is it better to remove when not in use but outside ?

[LoveToCamp]

I posted a couple days ago about hail and solar panels, but I don't recall which thread. BUT, if you look at post #64, above, you can see my panel is mounted flat on my roof. It went through some serious 3/8" hailstorms in SD and CO last summer. Roof of TM was slightly blemished, but no damage to solar panel.

I looked at some of the solar sites, and they say something like ½-inch hail will not damage the panels. I know my two hailstorms our solar panel survived were pretty heavy. To come through with no damage was a very good surprise. Those things are very tough! I won't worry about it again. If my panel is damaged, my TM will be totaled (just ask MarcoPolo about hail damage to a TM).

[scrubjaysnest]

Just a question I have not seen mentioned. Central Florida gets a lot of thinderstorms ("Central Florida's frequency of summer thunderstorms equals that of the world's maximum thunderstorm areas: Lake Victoria region of equatorial Africa and the middle of the Amazon basin."). Some of these storms have hail, some large (in thutty yars in Orlando I have had more hail damage than wind). How do solar panels hold up or is it better to remove when not in use but outside ?
Our hail storms don't amount to much(size) compared to out west. Saw a report about a year ago where a major hail storm in AZ did a lot of damage. Out of the 400 or so panels the solar company had installed out there only two were damaged by the storm. A quality panel made with tempered glass will take a lot.

[Padgett]

OK, understand the theory but not entirely the practise. Anyone have an opinion about this kit (http://www.amazon.com/Renogy-Solar-Panel-Bundle-200Watt/dp/B00B8L8MD2/)or are there other factors I should be looking for ? Is flexibility an advantage ?

[clan_salmons]

I just purchased a Renogy 100 watt bendable panel. 3 lbs and <1/4 inch thick. I got the output I was expecting. I will try to write it up on a separate post this evening.

[Dchisenh]

Hey Clan_Salmons,

I have been wondering about those panels. I read the review on AMSolar's website about those types of panels and it dampened my initial enthusiasm. I've been wondering how accurate their concerns/problems are, seeing that most of their business comes from standard glass/framed panels. The two big concerns are their performance in heat and likelihood of getting scratched. Growing up just east of Richmond myself, I'm sure you'll be able to give them a solid heat test around July and August there in Lynchburg. What do you think about how the cells are attached to the backing? Does it look like they could be scratched? If they look like they'll stand up to the elements, in theory they'd be excellent for a TM (ultra lightweight so they won't interfere with raising the shells, a little bit of flex to conform to the slight curvature of the roof). Also, how did you attach it? I was imagining some double-sided 3M tape would do the trick quite nicely and bypass having to puncture the roof with screws/rivets.

-Dan

[Padgett]

Since Floridians always seek shade if available I was thinking more of making the panels portable so could face the sun regardless of how the TM was located. Of course then there is the issue of a $150 or $200 panel growing legs or being blown away particularly if only 3 lbs.

[Redtail Cruiser]

These might be what you're looking for

http://www.amazon.com/Renogy-Foldable-Suitcase-Battery-Charger/dp/B00HR8YNK6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1402087619&sr=8-1&keywords=suitcase+solar+panels

[clan_salmons]

Here are my thoughts so far on the Renogy 100w Bendable Solar Panel.

First off is my needs. I have a pair Trojan 6v T105's so I've got a good reserve. We are very frugal with our power. I've replaced all incandescent bulbs with LEDs (florescents are next on my list) and have phantom charges down to .1 - .2 amps. As soon as I find where the powered radio antenna taps in, it is going to go as well. We camp to enjoy the outdoors, so no TV, no radio, and if I can get far enough away, no phone. If you could see how many books we have in our house, you would understand.

Padgett, you nailed it. We always head for the trees so I wanted a portable setup. I am willing to chase the sun a bit. Our last trip was a week boondocking in a poplar forest with trees 80 - 100 feet tall. A few hours mid day and that was about all the sun we had.

I've paired the panel with a Morningstar SunSaver SS-10-12v PWM Charge Controller. Only 10 amps, but adequate for what I want. It's temperature compensated and reverse polarity protected. I did not notice any heat output from the controller under full load. It's weather resistant so I am mounting it in a small outdoor electrical box attached to my battery box. I mounted short wires to the charger with MC4 connectors so I can drop them out of the outlet box. I am using 25 feet of 10 gauge wire to give the solar panels some reach.

The solar cells are mono crystalline mounted to a plastic sheet and are thin enough to bend. How they cut those crystals that thin is beyond me. The panel is 1/8" thick except at the wire connectors. And it really does weigh about 3lbs. If you do decide to purchase them, please note that there were NO instructions with the panel. The output wires were at least labeled positive and negative. There is a clear plastic film covering the solar cells. Remove it. I confirmed this with Renogy. Since I want this to be portable, I will reinforce the wire connections on the panel. Also note that the panels have a 5 year warranty on materials and workmanship, but no warranty on the output. Glass panels generally have 25 year output warranties. Since mine will not be in continuous use, I didn't consider this to be a major obstacle.

My Clipper monitor was registering 5.9amps output from the panels in full sun. 6amps if you add back the phantom load of he TM. Of course the PWM charger was holding down the voltage, so I figure my net yield from the panels was between 80 and 85 watts. The charger went into an equalization cycle and at one point had the voltage up to 14.4 volts. The batteries can handle that and more, but it's hard to find a charger that will push T105s to full capacity. Especially at a <$60 price point. A MPPT charger would do better, but it was overkill for my setup.

The panels do get quite warm, but since I am not mounting them, that shouldn't be a problem. Even if voltage dropped a bit from heat, it was still adequate for the charger to send a full load. When I contacted Renogy they recommended taping them down so I guess they feel that since the solar cells are so thin, they will radiate their heat from the front of the panel.

As far as durability, we shall see. Renogy claims you can walk on them, but I wouldn't unless I was barefoot and then heat would send you dancing. These panels can handle a little scuffing. There is a thin plastic coating over the solar cells, but they can definitely be scratched. My wife is going to make a carry bag and use one of the sheets of foam that came with the original box to protect the solar cells.

In the photo, I have the panel propped up against a box. I'll have to come up with a better method to secure it in wind. There are small grommet holes at the edges available. I have some 3m VHB and 3m Dual Lock Fastener tape, so I've got some playing around to do.

The Renogy Folding Solar Suitcase was my other option. In the end it came down to how much it weighed and where I wanted to store it. The bendable panel just gets tossed on the bed. If I am at an electric site, I will probably store the panel UNDER the bed mattress.

I will try to post some more photos in my album when I get everything finalized.

[scrubjaysnest]

We run a pair of 80 watt panels with the same controller and see as high as 10 amps so the controller does the job. We are thinking about about morningstars ts 45 since you can adjust the output and get a more desirable 14.8 volts that is especially important for your 105's. The pair of 12 volt Exide stowaways we use seem to be happy with the 14.5 limit on the sunsaver so far. For us 7 to 10 days without recharge gets us down to about 60% soc. The two batteries have a capacity of 210 aH versus your 105's of 225 aH.


Look for a blue wire coming from the antenna as that is the color of the power lead for ours.

[rickst29]

We run a pair of 80 watt panels with the same controller and see as high as 10 amps so the controller does the job. We are thinking about about morningstars ts 45 since you can adjust the output and get a more desirable 14.8 volts that is especially important for your 105's....
The Rogue MPT3048 (more expensive) seems better deal, because a good panel display is already included (and so is a PC adapter, for setting control parameters and reading operation measurements into a Rogue-supplied Windoze PC program). Although their MPT2024 ($250) is adequate for a "24 volt" panel array, the additional cost to buy the PC adapter separately bring to just $50 less than the price of the bigger one, built with better parts - and the on-board display of the 2024 looks a lot less comprehensive.

[scrubjaysnest]

The Rogue MPT3048 (more expensive) seems better deal, because a good panel display is already included (and so is a PC adapter, for setting control parameters and reading operation measurements into a Rogue-supplied Windoze PC program). Although their MPT2024 ($250) is adequate for a "24 volt" panel array, the additional cost to buy the PC adapter separately bring to just $50 less than the price of the bigger one, built with better parts - and the on-board display of the 2024 looks a lot less comprehensive.
Built in panel display isn't much good in the back of our SL right above the batteries. Don't really need the display anyways as I already have a high end Fluke DVM along with a clamp on ammeter.
Others might want to check it out though.

[rickst29]

The front panel display is significant only for installations which expose the panel to the interior, such as I will be doing on my 2619: On the front "base box"wall, under the sliding bed. Batteries for the 2619 were up front on the tongue, rather than inside the 2720 rear compartment.

[Padgett]

I have a Renogy "starter" kit purchased a few months ago and a second panel purchased with the latest sale. This makes 200W with controller for right on $300.

However when ordering the second panel I noticed something that I either missed before or is new (controller is a 30A PWM):

"Please Note: This is a Positive Ground Charge Controller. If grounding is necessary, it must be completed on the positive line. If the controller is to be used on a vehicle which has battery negative on the chassis, loads connected to the controller must not have an electrical connection to the vehicle body."

a) didn't think it was grounded- no continuity from either side of the pamel to the aluminum frame.
b) see no mention of this in documentation received in July.
c) controller has no ground connection (see picture) body is plastic

Anyone know what they are talking about ?

[scrubjaysnest]

I have a Renogy "starter" kit purchased a few months ago and a second panel purchased with the latest sale. This makes 200W with controller for right on $300.

However when ordering the second panel I noticed something that I either missed before or is new (controller is a 30A PWM):

"Please Note: This is a Positive Ground Charge Controller. If grounding is necessary, it must be completed on the positive line. If the controller is to be used on a vehicle which has battery negative on the chassis, loads connected to the controller must not have an electrical connection to the vehicle body."

a) didn't think it was grounded- no continuity from either side of the pamel to the aluminum frame.
b) see no mention of this in documentation received in July.
c) controller has no ground connection (see picture) body is plastic

Anyone know what they are talking about ?

Check from Batt (+) to Solar panel (+) for continuity. A lot of the neg ground CC have the batt (-) and solar panel (- )tied together on negative ground systems. I like the Morningstar SS 30 PWM since it has remote temp comp as an option. I went with a TS-45 but for small systems I believe the SS 30 is a better choice.

[Padgett]

Not sure why it would matter, worked with a lot of positive ground english cars in my yout (Lucas electrics: the component is wired to protect the fuse) and as long as isolated, the circuit does not care which side the switch is on.

Am I missing something ?

[tentcamper]

When I was looking to get my solar. I saw that cc and was concern with how to mount the it with the shell on the TM being neg ground. I decided to stay away from them.

I have read some good feedback for the low price eco-worthy 20 amp Mppt controller. After I play with my solar and if I need a little more amps. I might go with it.

[Padgett]

Not sure, I have instruments and the ecoworthy would be an unplanned $125. Also I do not care for the exposed terminals.

My philosophy when entering the unknown has been to buy something inexpensive and use that to determine if I need "more".

Have sent an e-mail to Renology asking what exactly they mean but suspect they are away. Will see what they say.

[tentcamper]

I understand. I also am just cutting my teeth with solar, so i'm not looking to do anything until I figure out my concerns.

[rickst29]

The warning applies only to the "Load" terminals, which you shouldn't use for anything anyway. Any 12V load which you want to support (internal or external to the TM living space) should be connected a a hot +12V wire "downstream" of the TM Power Converter's fuse board, which is itself "downstream" of the batteries.

Just connect the panels in parallel (all "+" terminals leading to the "+" PV input on the controller, and all "-" terminals leading to the "-" PV input. Then, "+" battery output goes THROUGH A FUSE, then connects to "+" to a "+" battery terminal. "-" battery output goes to a "-" battery terminal. Ignore the "load" terminals completely.
- - - -
In addition to the fact that "PWM kinda sucks", this particular device doesn't manage it's charging mode choices very well.

[Padgett]

Thank you. Like I said, a way to find out what I really need. Besides if "PWM kinda sucks" so does the WCO and so does the Bargman connection.

For $300 here in the Sunshine State (and if you believe that...) I have a 200w system and if it generates 120W to the battery, that should be plenty. Besides I pull the battery and put it on a wall wart when not in use anyway.

ps "2619 w/ 5k axle" doesn't sound quite stock. What drop angle does it have ?

[scrubjaysnest]

I was checking my two smart chargers the other day, one went to 16 volts:eek:
The other was rock solid at 15.0:D

[Skyjim73]

Not sure why it would matter, worked with a lot of positive ground english cars in my yout (Lucas electrics: the component is wired to protect the fuse)


Padgett - Thank you for a hearty chuckle! Had enough friends with old English sports cars to remember the T-shirts:

"Lucas, Prince of Darkness"

Q: "Why do the English drink warm beer?"

A: "Because they use Lucas Refrigeration!"

Jim

[rickst29]

OT: Yes, my 2619 build "with the 3124 axle" was special-order.

I own exactly the same stuff as you do. The Renogy 100W Mono panels generate peak Watts at a fairly high voltage (18.9); When the PWM Controller cuts the effective Voltage to about 14.5V, it can't use the higher Voltage to increase the Amps like an MPPT Controller - it just throws that power away, by shutting off and on rapidly. That's exactly like a traditional light dimmer switch in your house (rapid switching), or the temp controller on an electric stove (slower switching).

Calculation: The panel specs say 100W max, as 18.9V * 5.29A. The maximum which we could get during "bulk" charging (using the supplied PWM Controller) would be 5.29A * 14.5V, approximately 76.7W for each . But I've borrowed a high-quality DC meter from an electrician friend, and it shows that I'm really getting a quite bit less amps on my battery charge line - about 9.6A for both panels together, just 140W. YMMV, and I'm using fairly cheap batteries.

If 120 (or 140) Watts * sunlight hours is sufficient to meet your daily power demands, then an upgrade to MPPT would be a total waste of money (except for bragging rights and "kewl" factor). You'd just have an intelligent, fancy controller deciding "those batteries are almost fully charged, time for float stage" an hour earlier in the day - throwing away the rest of the afternoon's remaining "power input opportunity", unused.

With my new "electric-only" fridge, and my CPAP machine, I might benefit from such an upgrade. But 140 net watts is huge, (TM's option is less than half our size, and costs 3x as much as we spent.) "Normal" TM camping in sunny locations doesn't need a higher rate of charging than your kit provides. AND, if you (or I) find a need to upgrade in the future - we just put a thick blanket over the panels, disconnect the 4 wires from the current Controller, and remove it... no rework of the panels at all, except to possibly connect 'em in series instead of parallel. I strongly recommend that you use the current kit, and upgrade only if you find your battery consistently going too low.

[rickst29]

Not sure why it would matter, worked with a lot of positive ground english cars in my youth.Many decades ago, a friend of mine had one- and nearly every time it rained, the lights would go on and run the battery dead. :new_evil:

[Padgett]

BTW it is not true that the English drink warm beer, they drink it at room temperature: 45 degrees. (Lucas heaters)

[scrubjaysnest]

Interesting you are only getting 14.5 volts; both the SS 10 and the TS-45 I upgraded to push 9 to 10 amps @ 14.8 volts. That is from our two 80 watt panels. The Exides I have want 14.7 to 14.8 volts so I dropped the TS-45 back from 15.0 volts. Even at that voltage and current from the CC I'm still right at the ragged edge for the desired absorb of C/20 or 105 aH/20 h = 5.25 amps. We get very close with clean panels in ideal sun light. That is why I am thinking about picking up a 140 watt panel; largest 12 volt panel that meets the current panel Vmp. After the fact I think two 150 watt, 24 volt panels with Morningstars' pro 30 amp might be a better choice today.

[Wingedryder]

Hope I didn't interrupt this thread for something unrelated.

However, I'd like to know a little more about the hard panels that were pre-wired/installed by either factory or dealer on top of our 2013 TM. Questions such as wattage per ea. of the two panels, and whether or not they are indeed charging my battery while the shells are collapsed, either in storage or while plugged into the TV (as long as my installed battery cut-off switch is in ON position) - if anyone with a newer TM (already equipped w/rigid solar panels) might know, pls let me know. Thnx!

[LoveToCamp]

Winged, I ordered my panel post-delivery, but the TM came completely wired for solar. All I did was connect my panel to the special connectors that were zip-tied by the rear-street torsion bar.

When I installed my battery cutoff, I was able to do it without interrupting the charge line into my batteries. Should be a relatively simple matter to see if your solar is wired directly to the battery, or if it is part of the cutoff. Should be independent of the cutoff, I believe.

[Bill]

... whether or not they are indeed charging my battery while the shells are collapsed, either in storage or ...

WingedRyder -

Are the panels mounted on the front or rear shell? (Sorry, I have not been able to find a picture.) As I'm sure you realize, the panels must be exposed to direct sunlight in order to generate a charge. So if you have indoor storage (or outdoor storage with shadows on the panels), they won't charge. Similarly, if they are mounted on the rear shell, and the front shell covers them when the TM is closed, they won't charge. But if they are on the uncovered part of the rear shell, or on the front shell - and exposed to the sun - they should charge whether the TM is open or closed.

This should be true regardless of whether the tow vehicle is plugged in.

Bill

[tentcamper]

You can hard wire the roof mounted to the controller through a "Y". Base of the "Y" gets hardwired to the controller. One top branch of the "Y" gets hard wired to the roof mounted panel. You then add a low resistance good quality connector to the other top leg of the "Y". The remote panel then plugs in there. I am using the morning star pro star 30 ( extra capacity if I need it) at home with a total of 280 watts of 12v panels. I have had good luck with it.

Why would you not just mount the one panel and run wires to a connector near the controller, which is placed near the battery. Maybe a 25' run. Add the second portable panel to connector that is soldered into the controller side of the first connectors? Have the "Y" at the controller input. Not sure you would have to buy a y connector but solder in branches and, hard wires the base of the splinter to the controller.

There are lots of good water proof connectors out there.

[Wingedryder]

Winged, I ordered my panel post-delivery, but the TM came completely wired for solar. All I did was connect my panel to the special connectors that were zip-tied by the rear-street torsion bar.

When I installed my battery cutoff, I was able to do it without interrupting the charge line into my batteries. Should be a relatively simple matter to see if your solar is wired directly to the battery, or if it is part of the cutoff. Should be independent of the cutoff, I believe.

LoveToCamp: That was nice that the TM came prewired for solar panels (makes me thinketh the dealer may actually have installed my panels - there were a lot of "we" sell our units with this & that, so this may have been an item I took for granted that the factory installed and assumed the dealer was also taking credit for). Re cutoff switch: As I think back, I hooked up mine using cable leads bolting them together w/battery connector end, rather than by splicing. In which case I would have also captured the solar wire to the cutoff. I may wanna redo that in order to leave the solars panels connected whenever cutoff is switched 'off'. Thanks for that!

WingedRyder -

Are the panels mounted on the front or rear shell? (Sorry, I have not been able to find a picture.) As I'm sure you realize, the panels must be exposed to direct sunlight in order to generate a charge. So if you have indoor storage (or outdoor storage with shadows on the panels), they won't charge. Similarly, if they are mounted on the rear shell, and the front shell covers them when the TM is closed, they won't charge. But if they are on the uncovered part of the rear shell, or on the front shell - and exposed to the sun - they should charge whether the TM is open or closed.

This should be true regardless of whether the tow vehicle is plugged in.

Bill

Bill:
1) My panels are mounted to the REAR shell top, streetside - exposed whether or not shells are collapsed (Sorry, I have no pics either). And, yes, I understand solar panels require actual sunlight to operate.

2) Though my TM has been covered this winter, I'm interested in the possibility of leaving battery connected, with TM uncovered for solar 'drip charge' to the battery over winter. I have no shore power at the lot, and lifting battery out from under dinette bench and over the front slide-out wall with front shell raised for access, after parking for the season is a chore. AND, I have an elec tongue jack. It helps to position trailer with a slight rake for snow/rain run off toward the rear of roof, but of course the slant makes it even more difficult to raise either shell to access the battery inside (I didn't think about losing ability to raise/lower tongue when battery is pulled or switched off, as it was during camping season when I upgraded, ha!). The 2720 is a learning curve, that's for sure, and obviously there are a few compromises I didn't think about before-hand. I just remember how easy it was to pull the battery at storage time on my previous camper, where it was mounted on the exterior frame front.

3) My additional question is this: Assuming battery is receiving some charge from the solar panels while traveling with some sunlight present, wonder if the solar panels could be enough to help alleviate discharging either TM or TV battery during stops, as talked about here on the forum, when running the frig on 12V?

[rickst29]

3) My additional question is this: Assuming battery is receiving some charge from the solar panels while traveling with some sunlight present, wonder if the solar panels could be enough to help alleviate discharging either TM or TV battery during stops, as talked about here on the forum, when running the frig on 12V?

Simple answer: Any power which the Solar system provides, at the charge controller's battery terminals, DOESN'T have to come from ANY of the batteries. It may be providing everything the Fridge needs, or a "large proportion", but it might also be a lot less (depending on Charge Controller programming "limits".)

A more complex answer follows:

Don't think of the battery "receiving some charge" at the same time it is being discharged, because their is a gap in voltage between between these processes. Instead, think of wht happens at the +12V bus within the power distribution center -- that's where the TV battery and alternator (via bargeman) and the Fridge +12V lead, and the net power drawn from the battery AND charge controller all come together.

With no Solar power and the TV turned off, the TV discharges at 12.8V - and goes down from there, as it's State Of Charge decreases. The same thing will happen at the TM batteries, but the two battery sources don't fall together: As current increases, there's usually more voltage drop along the TV--> Baregeman --> TM +12V "bus bar" path, than there is along the TM battery --> 12V "bus bar" path. While power is being drawn from the Fridge, the TM battery gets discharged a bit more quickly than the TV battery, obeying the constraint that voltage at the bus bar (battery voltage - voltage drop on the corresponding path) is equal. aso that the voltage right at the bus (battery voltage minus voltage drop).

But, when the Fridge 12V circuit is opened (turned off), the Fridge will stop drawing power - and power will be drawn from the TV battery, directly to the TM batteries, until they have equal voltage. (Ignoring everything else, and some power gets lost in wires, too.) While the voltage differential is large, the current is substantial, but it declines as the batteries become more equal.

Now add Solar, via the Controller. The Controller will try to feed power into the TM battery terminals with some constraints- power delivery can't exceed either the maximum power of the Array, *or* the maximum power which can be delivered at the maximum Voltage for that charging mode. (The fastest, most powerful charging rules, called "Bulk Mode" or "Absorb Mode", will try to reach 14.5-14.8 Volts, depending on the Controller programming. But the power might be further limited by a "max current" and/or "maximum Bulk-Mode time" limits). Then, it typically drops to maximum of 13.3V or less, and might also be power/current limited - which would be non-optimal mode for the situation where the charger thinks that the "nearly full" batteries should be limited to only a small amount of current, but a huge amount of current is being drawn by the Fridge - and not going into the batteries at all.

The batteries won't begin to drain until their voltage is "pulled down" to less than about 12.8 Volts - and, with 120-130W being drawn by the Fridge Heater, but that will happen if your Solar Charge Controller is delivering less than 120-130W. If your Solar system delivers more than that, you will stay it it's float charge Voltage -roughly 13.3 Volts.

At less than 12.8V on the bus bar, your TV battery will also become involved - exactly as before - but both sets of batteries are greatly protected by the whatever Current (and Power) which your Solar Controller is pushing onto the battery terminals. If it's less than 120W, all of your batteries will still go down - but they'll go down slower than they do without Solar assistance.

[Bill]

3) My additional question is this: Assuming battery is receiving some charge from the solar panels while traveling with some sunlight present, wonder if the solar panels could be enough to help alleviate discharging either TM or TV battery during stops, as talked about here on the forum, when running the frig on 12V?Yes, it will certainly help alleviate, though whether it will totally prevent is of course dependent on the capacity of the panels and the amount of sunlight falling on them. However, I would urge you to install an isolation relay to protect the tow vehicle battery during stops. And that way, besides protection of the
TV battery, all of the solar charge can go into the TM battery and loads.

Bill

[Wingedryder]

Yes, it will certainly help alleviate, though whether it will totally prevent is of course dependent on the capacity of the panels and the amount of sunlight falling on them. However, I would urge you to install an isolation relay to protect the tow vehicle battery during stops. And that way, besides protection of the
TV battery, all of the solar charge can go into the TM battery and loads.

Bill

Thnx Bill, that's at least the tree I was barking up. I know there are variables here such as capacity of the panels (which I can't discern from the literature I've been provided) and amt of sunlight available for absorption. Which is why I had hoped someone else with a newer TM w/the already installed solar panels like mine might respond with their thoughts/experiences here on the Forum.

Re an 'Isolation Relay' - if I remember past discussions correctly, addition of an isolation relay to protect the TV battery can be a rather expensive proposition, in which case, I'm inclined to merely keep the frig off while traveling. Seems I'm getting used to a boatload of nuances with the TM, so one more is no big deal, I guess.

rikst29: Seems my Biz grad degree and parmaceutical industry background have ill prepared me for the theory behind your electrical explanations, sorry to say. But thnx, I appreciate your efforts anyway.

[LoveToCamp]

rickst29, thanks so much for the explanation. I don't grasp all of it (bus bar drawdown), but it does make sense. Someday, probably after I am done using a TT, I may understand more about electricity. Seems like it should be simple, but I have never tried to understand all the nuances. I appreciate the explanations you give. I pick up a little more each lesson you give. :)

[Bill]

... capacity of the panels (which I can't discern from the literature I've been provided) ...
I think TM was installing 80 watt panels, at least for a while. Can you measure the overall size of the panels (length and width)? This should lead us to a pretty close estimate. Is there no writing, no labels, at all on the panels?

Re an 'Isolation Relay' - if I remember past discussions correctly, addition of an isolation relay to protect the TV battery can be a rather expensive proposition ... Not necessarily so. If you buy one of the expensive isolators discussed earlier (>$100), you have to mount it under the hood somewhere, and make
2 connections to the device - Power In From Alternator and Power Out To Trailer. If you are willing to make two more connections, you can get a relay for $5-$10. Once installed, this is a very reliable approach. I did this on my first Explorer, and put 160K miles on it before I traded it in.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Directed-Electronics-610T-Directed-Relay/21190763
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Install-Bay-30-40-Amp-Economy-Relay/28829772

One of the extra connections is to ground - any ground under the hood.
The other extra connection is 12 Volts when key in is ON. You would pick this up in the fuse box, which is easily accessible.

Several of us can provide more installation details if you would like. Or keeping the refrig off is perfectly good, too, if that works for you (it does for us).

Bill

[rickst29]

My "cheapo" PWM controller likes to fall into Float mode and stay there, without regard to battery voltage being pulled down by subsequent heavy loads. The power was thus limited to no more than 13.2/18.9 * 200 Watts (just enough to run the fridge, with no extra for charging the batteries while the Fridge was running. My "200 Watts" of PV panels became only 140W at the battery terminals of the Controller.) If it stayed in Bulk mode, it would have offered about 14.4/18.9 * 200W (another 12 Watts or so.)

My new controller is MPPT, it converts nearly all of the power delivered by PV at "excessive voltage" into more current at the right voltage. It's "bulk mode" will deliver a full 200W (i.e., significant battery charging at the same time a Norcold Fridge would be running at roughly 140W).

My new one has also much more advanced programming, it's happy to start a new "bulk mode" cycle when the battery voltage is being pulled down by high loads. (This "switch-back" is limited only by timer considerations and temperature at the battery terminal post.) I can also change ALL of it's programming parameters, by connecting it to a Windows computer program and using the program to set whatever values I like.

Of course, my new Fridge runs at only 70-90W. But for everyone else, the PWM power loss versus high Norcold power consumption is a big deal - roughly 1/3 of your PV power is not going to get through the Controller. Everything else must come from batteries (and the TV alternator, while actually driving).

[Wingedryder]

Thanks Bill & rickst29!
I'll have to ponder your latest posts a bit, not being the electrical engineer that I know Bill is, and prolly rickst29 as well.

I'm at least a little more encouraged. Though the relay idea may not be the first mod I tackle, appreciate knowing it could be a practical remedy for not discharging TV or TM battery w/o spending $$$$! I recall that my solar panels (2) are 80watt panels (still covered for storage, so can't measure right now). Beyond that, I have no clue what to expect from them, nor do I know the type of controller, though I'll dig a little deeper in my pile of TM literature.

Thanks again for the responses, guys - I gather there aren't many on the Forum with experience with as new a TM.

[tentcamper]

Just wondering, with fixed panels if there are any issues of two charging systems trying to charge at the same time? Is there any thing special you need do such to isolate between the two different power supplies. ie, the panels controller, the TV alternator or camper converter? Will they work in tandem without one of the power supplies stepping down because it senses the voltage of the other power supply?

[Bill]

Though the relay idea may not be the first mod I tackle, appreciate knowing it could be a practical remedy for not discharging TV or TM battery w/o spending $$$$!Be sure you undertsand that an isolator or isolation relay will prevent discharge of the tow vehicle battery when you are stopped (thus assuring that you can start the tow vehicle), but will not prevent discharge of the TM battery by loads, such as refrig, in the TM.

I recall that my solar panels (2) are 80watt panels (still covered for storage, so can't measure right now).Good to know. As noted above, 160 watts (nominal) of panels won't power the refrig top full power, but will certainly prevent it from sucking the TM battery dry as you travel.

Bill

[LoveToCamp]

Art, I have a fixed panel, and have no problem charging from solar and TV while driving. No special setup needed.

[tentcamper]

Thanks.

[FujiPedaler]

I pull my batteries for winter storage.

So just to let you know, you can remove your battery before you close up. Then with the TV bergaman still attachedp , you can use your power jack to adjust the "rack" of your TM for storage.

[Wingedryder]

I pull my batteries for winter storage.

So just to let you know, you can remove your battery before you close up. Then with the TV bargman still attached, you can use your power jack to adjust the "rake" of your TM for storage.

That's great! So I can then lift the shells, pull the battery while level, before I close up; then, attached to the TV via the bargman, I can still use the power jack to raise/lower the TM's front end! Why didn't I think of that? Many thanks, FujiPedaler! Guess I need to get used to thinking more 'IN SEQUENCE' w/the TM;)

[Wingedryder]

Art, I have a fixed panel, and have no problem charging from solar and TV while driving. No special setup needed.

Thanks LoveToCamp,
That's music to my ears...I never had to worry about travel stops w/my former tent-trailer even though smaller frig running off 12V. Though no solar panels, I dreaded having to make special mods to enable traveling w/the frig running off of 12V w/my TM supplemented w/solar panels. At least I'm not afraid to try it now!;)

[raygor]

I am a solar newbie but camp one to two times a year without power. So I went with this portable kit and only take it on the few no power trips. It is a 100 watts and comes all in a fabric case with controller attached and a 15 foot cable with clips that I put on my battery. So far it has worked great for the little juice I need for lights and toilet flush. I did replace my interior lights with led, which also helps. The product is called: RenogyⓇ Foldable Solar Suitcase Battery Charger 100W and it's about $280 on Amazon with free shipping.
http://www.amazon.com/Renogy-Foldable-Suitcase-Battery-Charger/dp/B00HR8YNK6/ref=pd_sim_lg_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=0EZRGV39BJJ89HKGJ2MK

Rick

[gjmaker95]

@ rickst29 &/or Bill:

I have an '05 TM 3023, all stock everything except the battery bank which I upgraded to two 6V Trojan golf cart batteries. We're doing a canyonlands tour this summer and I want to add solar panels to the mix, assuring that I have enough capacity to run the fridge at full power during the day while we're off hiking and mountain biking. I also like the idea of having the ability to run the fridge while driving out/back and around Moab, Zion, etc. I am considering the following 300 W kit by a company recommended by another TM poster in this thread):

https://www.solarblvd.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_272&products_id=2869

1st question: Since this kit ships with a 20 Amp 12V PWM, will the voltage loss through the PWM still run the stock fridge at full power on the battery setting while towing or while parked?

2nd question: do you or anyone else in this post know of some "quick release" brackets I can use to mount these on the TM rooftop? I only ask as out west finding sun on the roof of the camper won't be too much of a problem, but I live on the East coast, and would like the option of using the solar array as a portable system as well, as many of the best campgrounds here are well shaded.

Any help/suggestions are appreciated.

[gjmaker95]

@ rickst29 &/or Bill:

Also, I attached a pic of the setup for this system, which includes z-brackets for mounting on the roof. I am a bit reticent to drill holes into the roof of my TM to mount these brackets. One poster mentioned using a special, strong 3M tape and caulking around the edges. In your esteemed opinions, which is the best mounting method to be sure that these panels won't land themselves on an interstate when travelling at safe highway speeds?

[gjmaker95]

Whoops, the image link didn't go through, trying again...https://www.solarblvd.com/images/300kit.png

[Padgett]

Main thought is that you mention a 300W kit but only a 20A (240W@12vdc) controller.

Second, where are you going to put them ? I have mine on the rear module and with minimum clearance on the bag seal when closed, mine extend over the edge slightly and are 47" long. The ones you propose are 58.4" long. Might be better off with three shorter 100W panels than 2 150s.

ps tried sideways. Was worse.

[scrubjaysnest]

@ rickst29 &/or Bill:

I have an '05 TM 3023, all stock everything except the battery bank which I upgraded to two 6V Trojan golf cart batteries. We're doing a canyonlands tour this summer and I want to add solar panels to the mix, assuring that I have enough capacity to run the fridge at full power during the day while we're off hiking and mountain biking. I also like the idea of having the ability to run the fridge while driving out/back and around Moab, Zion, etc. I am considering the following 300 W kit by a company recommended by another TM poster in this thread):

https://www.solarblvd.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_272&products_id=2869

1st question: Since this kit ships with a 20 Amp 12V PWM, will the voltage loss through the PWM still run the stock fridge at full power on the battery setting while towing or while parked?

If you have the original Norcold it draws 1 amp per volt or at 14.5 volts that would be 14.5 amps. The short answer is no the 210 WH the reefer uses will be to close to actual panel output.
The panel rating:
Electrical Data
Maximum Power Output: 150 Watts
Max Operating Voltage (Vmp): 18.0 Volts
Max Operating Current (Imp): 8.33 Amps
Open Circuit Voltage (Voc): 22.4 Volts
Short Circuit Current (Isc): 8.75 Amps
Module Efficiency: 14.70%

I'll run the math and get back with that.

But it is more complicated then that. These panels are rated at Vmp 18.0 volts and 8.33 amps * 2 is 16.66 amps. As the sun gets towards solar noon panel output should go up but since the temperature of the cells goes up output will actually drop.
Net result will be reefer temp will be maybe cool to almost cold; you will not have put any charge into the batteries.
While towing the camper between the TV and panels you will be fine and should arrive at the CG will full charge on the batteries. We always run the reefer on propane at the CG except the few times we have shore power then it will be on AC.

2nd question: do you or anyone else in this post know of some "quick release" brackets I can use to mount these on the TM rooftop? I only ask as out west finding sun on the roof of the camper won't be too much of a problem, but I live on the East coast, and would like the option of using the solar array as a portable system as well, as many of the best campgrounds here are well shaded.
Take a look the solar install of BigFootFord over on the RV.net forums. When he did his install he used hinges and pins. I'll try to get you a link.

Any help/suggestions are appreciated.[/QUOTE]

[scrubjaysnest]

@ rickst29 &/or Bill:

Also, I attached a pic of the setup for this system, which includes z-brackets for mounting on the roof. I am a bit reticent to drill holes into the roof of my TM to mount these brackets. One poster mentioned using a special, strong 3M tape and caulking around the edges. In your esteemed opinions, which is the best mounting method to be sure that these panels won't land themselves on an interstate when travelling at safe highway speeds?

Those of us that have used the tape have used 3M VHB 4941. Since I added hinges I also used pop rivets and 3M 5200 caulk. That may have been over kill.

As Padgett said panel mounting is going to be a trick. With that size you can get one on the rear shell so the other will have to mount on the front shell. Because of the high amps you will have to use large wire sizes. Most likely 8 AWG to a combiner from each panel and 6 AWG to the CC. If you were out west camping all the time I would say wire the panels in series to save on wire size. That will require something different in a CC. East Coast camp forces us to wire in parallel because of shading and there for bigger wire.

[scrubjaysnest]

Here is the link I mentioned over on RV.net, it isn't BigFootFord by the way, it's Fire_Instructor.

http://s185.photobucket.com/user/Fire_Instructor/library/Rockwood%20Solar%20Install%20%202011?sort=6&page=1



As for the math it is something like this:

225 AH * 14.5 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel+charge controller derating * 0.10 rate of charge = 424 Watt array nominal.

The above math is for figuring minimum array size to get a 10% rate of charge to the batteries. In this case 22.5 amps. I used 225 AH as that is typical for GC-2's. The 14.5 volts is typical bulk charging voltage.

My system at 280 watts is about 7% roc and yours will be similar.

Panels in full sun from about 10 AM to 3 PM will produce near their rated output. Out side of that time the reefer will pull power from the batteries.

[Padgett]

a) Have seen that 10% ROC several times. Where does it come from
b) For dry camping the fridge worked just fine for me on Propane and used surprisingly little in five days
c) Now have two GC2s and are staying charged. Is just a matter of replacing what you use. I don't use much.

[scrubjaysnest]

a) Have seen that 10% ROC several times. Where does it come from
b) For dry camping the fridge worked just fine for me on Propane and used surprisingly little in five days
c) Now have two GC2s and are staying charged. Is just a matter of replacing what you use. I don't use much.
The recommended ROC comes from the manufacture battery data sheet. It is based on the 20 hr rate.
Divide the 20 hr rate, GC-2 battery typical is 225 AH by the recommended rate of charge and a 10% rate is c/10, 225/10 = 22.5 amps and the trap in this is the 5% roc; 225/20= 11.25 amps. We have to remember 5% of 100 % is 20 so that is where the number to divide by comes from.

[Padgett]

Well for one thing you should never use more than 50% of the charge. Secondly once I get the lights replaced with LEDs, my power drain from the batteries should be very low.

Figure if when dry I use propane for the fridge and any heat (cabin/water) needed that just leaves the Thetford (occasional) CO2 detector, computer (10W), TV tuner (8w), 27" Monitor (55w max), and fans (6W each). Add in a few LED ligts (2W) and we are talking about 100W peak consumption for maybe 4 hours per day or about 32AH. Figure 1/4 that the rest of the time or 40AH and another 8AH for momentary incidentals (shower) and we are talking a daily budget of around 80AH.

Round that up to 100AH for S&G and that is what I need to replace each day in about 8 hours of sun: 12.5A/150W. If I use more, an hour of the genny should be pleanty. Seems like a reasonable starting point. Once I complete my AC modifications and replace the 1141s with LEDs (en route), I'll run some baseline use tests.

Did I miss something ?

[rickst29]

@ rickst29 &/or Bill:

I have an '05 TM 3023, all stock everything except the battery bank which I upgraded to two 6V Trojan golf cart batteries. We're doing a canyonlands tour this summer and I want to add solar panels to the mix, assuring that I have enough capacity to run the fridge at full power during the day while we're off hiking and mountain biking. I also like the idea of having the ability to run the fridge while driving out/back and around Moab, Zion, etc....
When the TM is in camp, and not being driven around, the standard 3-way fridge should be run on Propane (not battery-sucking electric). My compressor-based Fridge is something else entirely. Is there a reason you can't run propane? If you CAN run propane, then you loads are probably not going to need 300 watts of panels. What other electrical devices are in the mix?

[Padgett]

Just looked it up (it's on the Internet so must be right) and for a "deep cycle" battery like a GC2, depletion to 45% is permitted so a daily draw of 125AH is OK (55% used) for long life.

So for two GC2s my 100AH/day is reasonable.

Personally I really like AGMs but in this case the wet GC2s made more sense since my rear compartment is vented. For me it is a space as well as an energy budget. Whether two 100W panels rigidly mounted on the roof is a good idea, I'll just have to find out but solves a number of issues & mounted on the rear module are out of the turbulent air flow & debris when moving (panel height is almost equal to the height of the front module when closed).

[rickst29]

....Most likely 8 AWG to a combiner from each panel and 6 AWG to the CC. If you were out west camping all the time I would say wire the panels in series to save on wire size. That will require something different in a CC. East Coast camp forces us to wire in parallel because of shading and there for bigger wire.
The PWM controller which comes with the kit switches the Solar Connection on and off, at Mhz speeds, to create the "average voltage" of 14.5V (or 13.7, or 13.4, depending on mode and battery type. If he were to mount the panels in series, at Vmpp ~ 36V, the controller would respond to the huge excess voltage by spending a much larger portion of time in "Solar Disconnected" mode. He'd basically be running with just one panel.

Because the panels must be wired in parallel (for the supplied PWM Controller), The kit includes the necessary "Y" adapters. I'd put both on the Front shell, although the panels are A LOT bigger and heavier than my 100V panels.

(Quick aside: The torsion bar adjustment screws for the "front end" pair of bars will need to be turned WAY in, in order to lift all of that weight easily. The pair for the back lifts, supporting the air conditioner, will probably need no change at all - or they might even need a bit of loosening, with the front bars taking a much higher portion of the weight. The goal is to have the shell roof nearly "level" when dropped, with just a bit of "height" left to push down at the four corners.)

[Padgett]

Well the key is in post 117: " I am considering the following 300 W kit ".

I would strongly recommend three 48" 100W panels on the rear module which can go longitudinally and would make wiring simple as well as providing shade for the rear bedroom (Roof really gets hot in the noonday sun here - why I must work on the AC before 11am.) Suspect for those that can hear it would also be quieter in a rainstorm.

[scrubjaysnest]

I missed it was a PWM CC, but one note here during bulk mode the PWm is nothing but a closed switch until the battery gets enough charge the voltage raises to the bulk SP voltage typically around 14.5 volts. With the reefer on I don't see the CC ever getting out of bulk mode because of how much current the reefer draws.
For any solar installation PWM or MPPT CC you always try to keep losses under 3% as a rule of thumb. Budget always plays a big role though.

[Padgett]

My leadins from Renogy (part of the kit) are 20 feet long & enough for Across to side. Down side, Around window to leg, Down leg, Over to levelling jack, and Up through hole in rear compartment to controller with a foot or so left over.

Of course if you are mounting the controller on the other end from the panels...

[rickst29]

Main thought is that you mention a 300W kit but only a 20A (240W@12vdc) controller.
That calculation is slightly off - he actually won't get that much. The PWM should first operate in "bulk mode" (exactly as scrubjaynest described: "straight through a close switch"). Voltage will be controlled by the batteries, running at a level level much lower than V(mpp), and current will be slightly higher than the rated I (at mpp). Highest power occurs when the circuit is at nearly the "Absorb" setpoint (maybe 14.4 - 14.6v for SLA), and the slightly-above-max amps is being delivered. I'll SWAG 14.4V * 8.4 amps each, if wire losses are small and conditions are "perfect".

Then, when the battery circuit reaches the "Absorb" setpoint Voltage, OR the "Maximum Bulk Charge time" is reached, the Solar Controller will activate "PWM mode" to avoid over-voltage, while delivering up roughly rated I(mpp) [minus wiring losses] at the battery voltage. With a big battery bank or considerable loads downstream, this is also a high-power mode. If there aren't any loads, and the batteries aren't willing to take a lot of Amps, power will drop. This mode is governed by a "maximum time" parameter, after which the Controller should test for going into Float Mode.

Next, upon testing the battery line voltage for a moment while not charging, the Controller will go into "Float" mode if the battery is below the "Float" setpoint. (But if Voltage is MUCH lower, it might go back to "Bulk", or stay in "Absorb" for longer.) The Controller should deliver a current-limited Voltage of 13.4-13.6V. In my own device, Float Voltage is 13.6V and maximum Float Current is 2.0 Amps.
- - - - -
The rated Max Amps on his panels is only 16.6 (2 panels, 8.3A each). "Absorb Mode" in his configuration, with typical Lead-Acid battery bank settings will be just 239 Watts Maximum (Bulk Mode). That's with perfect wires and "standard conditions", hardly ever reached in the "real world", at the exact moment when the Voltage is highest. Bulk Mode could be slightly more Amps, perhaps reaching a theoretical max around 8.4 Amps (maybe even 8.5). 14.4 VDC times 17.0 Amps yields almost 245, before subtracting for wiring loss. But over a charging cycle, the Voltage varies quite a bit - the battery line WON'T be running at 14.4V (it will probably be down in the range 13.6 -> 14.0 most of the time.) And so, even before wiring losses, I wouldn't expect a charging cycle to average more than about 13.8V. 13.8V * 17A ~ 235W, before any wiring losses. If wiring doesn't lose more than 5% net (which will require bigger wire than #10 between the "Y" Adapters and the Controller), he's down to about 220 net watts.

If his battery bank and daytime loads "need" more than about 180 Watts, then I think he will need a 4th panel, or a switch to a more expensive MPPT Controller. (MPPT "creates" higher current than the Array provides, converting the power delivered at "excessive" Voltage, and adding it to the I(mpp) which is coming from the Panels. "MPPT Mode" replaces "Bulk" mode, and (in the real world) most of the time spent in "Absorb" as well. It will consider falling into traditional PWM mode, only if the battery connection (and downstream loads) aren't accepting any of the "extra" Amps at the "Absorb" Voltage.

220W "max possible watts over a charge cycle" from 300W "Panels rated at Vmp" is a pretty good ratio (73%, before wiring losses.) In contrast, my own Panels (running at 18.9 Vmp) have a slightly worse ratio, measured at an actual 135W peak, and an average of about 120W for Bulk + Absorb. I haven't taken measurements on my new MPPT layout yet, but if it doesn't yield at least 170W peak (early June, 5000 ft altitude), then I will be a tiny bit disappointed. Wiring the panels in Series cuts my wiring loss in half on the long Solar->Controller circuit, but my MPPT is only about 96% efficient at doing the conversion from ~39V down to ~14V.

[rickst29]

My leadins from Renogy (part of the kit) are 20 feet long & enough for Across to side. Down side, Around window to leg, Down leg, Over to levelling jack, and Up through hole in rear compartment to controller with a foot or so left over.

Of course if you are mounting the controller on the other end from the panels...
Twenty feet, instead of "nearly forty", will be half the Voltage Drop. and lost current. :D But with a PWM Controller, neither the shorter distance NOR the use of heavier wire will make a significant difference- nearly all of the power which is no longer "lost" with I-squared-R "Voltage Drop" in the wires will be "thrown away" at the PWM Controller. Only the slightly higher Current matters.

[Padgett]

Any suggestions for a test rig to determine actual power from the panels ? Am showing 22V coming in to the controller and batteries are showing 14.1vdc but expect that is a surface charge. Just not sure how to do a load test with the batteries in the circuit.

Have losta instruments just not much experience with solar.

[rickst29]

I don't have a meter which can handle all those Amps in line, but my Controller keeps logs of all the Voltage and Amperage readings auto-magically.

For "usable power", measure the Volts on "Battery +" output line form the Controller, relative to any TM Ground, and also measure the Amps (on that same wire). Be sure to measure in "Bulk" Mode, when the Solar Controller isn't limiting current for battery protection reasons. BTW, 22V is awfully high for a "12V silicon panel" on the Solara side. If I saw anything near that with my own, I'd be looking for a loose connection or misbehaving Solar Controller - because (with mine), that would be right around "Open Circuit" voltage of the panel, with almost no power being absorbed into the Controller. :eek:

[scrubjaysnest]

I'm planning on getting the records from the TS-45 since I put it in service. Got the software now and a usb to serial adapter working. Just need a cable to go between the adapter and the TS-45. That will allow me to compare my fluke and sears clamp on ammeter readings.
Best way I know to test is turn of the solar, let the batteries rest over night without load and verify they are fully charged. Then load the batteries and draw down to ~50% soc. Hook up a DVM and ammeter. Turn the solar back one and get readings about every half hour or so until the batteries reach Full charge.
You won't get the factory numbers for the panels because they test them under STC settings in a lab.
But 22 volts input to the CC maybe right for fully charged batteries and if Vmp for the panels is that high. For my 80 watt panels Vmp is 18.1 and the Kyorcea it is 16.9 volts. At full charge since they are in parallel input voltage measures 18.1, for the Kyorcea by it self the input is 17.2 volts.

panel watts = Vmp * Imp.

[rickst29]

....22 volts input to the CC maybe right for fully charged batteries.
Yes, but your Controller should not be subjecting "fully charged" batteries to 14.1 Volts. As you say, it could be a temporary "surface charge" effect from earlier "bulk charging" which will settle down over the next few hours.

[LoveToCamp]

I think this thread title needs to be changed. This discussion is getting way beyond what us dummies can follow. :D Although, I am still getting some useful info from some of the postings.

[gjmaker95]

When the TM is in camp, and not being driven around, the standard 3-way fridge should be run on Propane (not battery-sucking electric). My compressor-based Fridge is something else entirely. Is there a reason you can't run propane? If you CAN run propane, then you loads are probably not going to need 300 watts of panels. What other electrical devices are in the mix?

I have a problem in that in using the fridge on propane, I can smell exhaust fumes in the camper. I've done everything I could figure, including Bill's and other's suggestions, and I can't eliminate the problem. I figured adding enough solar capacity to run the fridge on battery while towing and while parked (with the ability to charge the battery) would be cheaper than replacing the fridge, and allow me to camp in more remote/less developed campgrounds.

As far as other electrical, I have converted all the standard incandescent bulbs to led's inside and out, have three 12" and one 16" duel bulb fluorescent lights on the inside, the CO detector and various personal electronics devices to charge from time to time (portable bluetooth speaker, cell phones, tablets, rechargeable batteries for flashlights, walkies, etc.), and the pump for the toilet and water supply. We don't use the outside lights on the camper while camped, but rely on flashlights and headlamps along with the campfire.

[gjmaker95]

Because the panels must be wired in parallel (for the supplied PWM Controller), The kit includes the necessary "Y" adapters. I'd put both on the Front shell, although the panels are A LOT bigger and heavier than my 100V panels.

(Quick aside: The torsion bar adjustment screws for the "front end" pair of bars will need to be turned WAY in, in order to lift all of that weight easily. The pair for the back lifts, supporting the air conditioner, will probably need no change at all - or they might even need a bit of loosening, with the front bars taking a much higher portion of the weight. The goal is to have the shell roof nearly "level" when dropped, with just a bit of "height" left to push down at the four corners.)

That was my plan. Mount them both on the awning side of the shell and adjust the torsion bars accordingly on that side.

However, at the moment I am more concerned that the planned wattage and controller won't suit my needs according to the calculations discussed in the thread. Being the impetuous imp that I can be at times, I pulled the trigger and bought the kit without waiting for y'all's response. They haven't arrived yet, but I may just keep them and add to the system to make up what I need to run the fridge on battery while at the CG. What do you think?

[gjmaker95]

I measured the back shell roofline while closed and the ones I mentioned would overhang a bit too. The larger problem is the width. My camper has a roof vent over the rear bed in that part of the shell and the panels are too wide for that installation location.

[Padgett]

Guess they are all different. I have no vent in the rear module so easy to put three 48" 100W panels there (only have two, think is all I need).

BTW when adjusting the tortion bars, I always adjust all four a quarter turn at a time then try.

[scrubjaysnest]

I have a problem in that in using the fridge on propane, I can smell exhaust fumes in the camper. I've done everything I could figure, including Bill's and other's suggestions, and I can't eliminate the problem. I figured adding enough solar capacity to run the fridge on battery while towing and while parked (with the ability to charge the battery) would be cheaper than replacing the fridge, and allow me to camp in more remote/less developed campgrounds.

As far as other electrical, I have converted all the standard incandescent bulbs to led's inside and out, have three 12" and one 16" duel bulb fluorescent lights on the inside, the CO detector and various personal electronics devices to charge from time to time (portable bluetooth speaker, cell phones, tablets, rechargeable batteries for flashlights, walkies, etc.), and the pump for the toilet and water supply. We don't use the outside lights on the camper while camped, but rely on flashlights and headlamps along with the campfire.
I missed what Bill and others have said but any time we notice fumes from the reefer on propane it is time to clean the exhaust tube above the burner.
The ammonia line runs through here and collects a lot of carbon. This isn't as easy as it was on our old pup.

[Padgett]

Any time you smell fumes of any kind, something is wrong. That should be in big letters on the front of the owner's guide.

My trailer is odor free and I work to keep it that way.

[gjmaker95]

I missed what Bill and others have said but any time we notice fumes from the reefer on propane it is time to clean the exhaust tube above the burner.
The ammonia line runs through here and collects a lot of carbon. This isn't as easy as it was on our old pup.

What process/tool/device would you recommend for cleaning the tube? It's not particularly accessible and has a fairly narrow diameter.

[rickst29]

There are several possible causes, and the subject belongs in an entirely different Thread. But I'm putting them here anyway. If you are similarly "fumigated" by running the stove for several seconds (with the ceiling fan off, not cooking anything) then you may be extremely sensitive to burned propane by-products, although nearly all of the result (CO2 + Water vapor) should be odorless. In that case, these steps won't help.

First, make sure that the exhaust fan works correctly. 4 possible problems/solutions occur with this issue:

#1: Exhaust fan doesn't run, no power at the exhaust fan terminals. Turn it on (at the switch), replace failed switch, or fix "broken" wiring.

#2: Exhaust fan doesn't run, but there is +12V at one of the terminals (and ground at the other). Replace the fan, and don't use a quiet, low-CFM computer fan: Get a "screamer", capable of more than 50 CFM.

#3: Exhaust fan runs, but doesn't blow air outwards. Fan wiring is backwards - switch wiring of the fan terminals so that air flow is OUT and DOWN through the floor.

#4: The "Clothes Dryer Exhaust" tube is too "pinched, collapsed" to allow for effective airflow through the fun. Adjust the tubing to allow sufficient flow.

- - - - -
#5: Most Important, after the fan is running reasonably well: You are probably also having significant flow of exhaust air into living space, through large "gaps" between the Fridge unit back plane and the TM "Fridge Box" panels. Use all-aluminum duct tape (the kind they use to seal furnace air leaks). Do Not use everyday "duct tape", or anything else which isn't made to handle high temperatures. Seal vertical gaps between the Fridge and Surrounding cabinetry; Seal all wiring holes mode between the fridge compartment and the under-sink area. And finally, most important, tape the big empty spaces at the sides of the TM-provided aluminum sheet (above the Fridge Body), so that the entire area above the Fridge is sealed to sides of the "Fridge Box", and the bottom side of the counter.

Although not totally air-tight, that "sealing" of the larger gaps should almost completely isolate air in the rear of the Fridge from the living space, preventing exhaust from coming in so rapidly.

There's yet another way to mess with the air flow in the rear of the Fridge: Install "alternate" outbound exhaust fans fans at the upper TM vent, eliminating the need to run the bottom fan in camp. But, having done it, I now think that it is NOT worth the trouble. You still need the bottom fan installed and operable for travel, when the upper vent is blocked by the lowered front shell. The fan pair must be wired to a power switch, and the wiring must allow for disconnect (to take the "removable panel" off without ripping wires).

[rickst29]

And, on a sunny day, it will keep the Fridge from running your TV battery down during lunchtime, or other long breaks.

If you allow the Solar Charge Controller to dish out 14.3 or 14.4 amps, the fridge should consume 140-150 Watts when running the DC Heater. Your "300W Kit" can be expected to deliver 170 Watts or more, as long as the sky is clear and the Sun is high. (Not September, and not after 4 PM.)

To put both panels on the "Street" side (awning side), arranged end-to-end, is IMO a very bad idea. Off-Balance weights are tougher on the shells, that's one reason the AC is centered. I think that you should put them on opposite sides of the front-back center-line of the forward shell: a bit forwards of the roof vent over the Stove, and only 3-4- inches from the "street side" and "curb side" edge seals.

I've no idea how much energy the "bluetooth speaker system" wants.

[gjmaker95]

@rickst29:

Thanks for all that, Bill turned me on to the fan, I had no idea it was even there. Turns out the fan is bad. Pulled it and ordered a new one on Amazon that pulls less than 1/2 the current. Hopefully it also pulls enough cfm that it will eliminate the smell. I've stuffed fiberglass insulation all around the edges of the upper 1/2 of the back of the fridge and around the aluminum diverting panel at the top of the space. Once I install the new fan this week I will know if it's pulling enough cfm to evacuate the fumes. If not, I will get one that has a bit more pull and drop that in there before my trip out west.

I am curious about your comment that implied that the fan running during travel when the TM is folded up. Is this safe/recommended to run the fridge on propane when towing?

Regarding the solar panel setup. Now that the fridge will work on propane, the need for that much wattage is gone. I think 'm going to send that kit back to the manufacturer and look for a more reasonable setup. I thought of mounting them as you suggested, but the TV antenna on the driver's side gets in the way, requiring the panel to overhang the back of the forward shell. However, I would love to have enough wattage to run the fridge on battery while towing. What do you recommend?

Finally, I can't thank you, Padgett, Bill and others who posted enough. I was about to haul this over to Camping World and pay way to much per hour to have them fix it. If any of you are going to be in the canyonlands this June/July, I would love to treat you to a cold one (or two!) around a campfire. Y'all rock.

[gjmaker95]

Turns out there's nothing wrong with my fridge that RTFM-ing or using my POO (my kids acronym for "Powers Of Observation") couldn't have fixed. So, now I am wondering how much solar wattage would I need to just be sure that I can run the fridge on the battery setting while driving 8 to 12 hours on the road.

[scrubjaysnest]

Answer isn't that simple. First of all with the TV hooked up to the TM and at an idle without the reefer on how much voltage is at the TM battery terminals?
Also what current is going to the battery? You may want to have the head lights on and select tow/haul if that is an option.
Next test is with the reefer on what current is going to the TM and what current do you measure at the battery and what voltage at the battery.
With the second test if you see 20 amps from the TV to the TM and say 6 amps at the battery you may not need to add solar for that reason.
Now you stop somewhere for lunch say; you will need a way to disconnect the the TV, easiest is pull the 7 pin connector but then you need to remember to plug it back in. This is to prevent discharging the TV battery unless it comes from the factory with some kind of isolation system.

Now back to the solar question; the reefer needs ~ 210 watts by itself. That implies about 300 watts of solar, really depends on panel + CC efficiency.
The test above will reduce the solar required a little but panel efficiency will be down for two reasons. Flat on the roof and cell heating.

[gjmaker95]

Well, that answers my question. I will make some measurements and know from there. Thanks!

[Padgett]

Just one point. If have the three way fridge should only be using DC when travelling (or just put 8-10 lbs of ice in the freezer. If a compressor fridge (no propane) should use about half as much DC

Personally, when travelling, things that need to stay cold are in a 44 qt 12v cooler in the TV.

[tentcamper]

For us it all come down to:

Where we are going to camp that night with electric/no electric hook ups?
- If we are going to have electric hookup. We are not concern about not having a full charged battery and expect to fully recharging the battery from the converter before our next leg of the trip. We will travel running the 12V fridge and the fan on.

If we are going to dry camp that night? It depends on: How far we are going to travel and out side temps?
- If it's not far or the outside temps are below 80. We don's run the fridge while traveling.
- If we are traveling far (5+ hours) and outside temps are above 80. I run the propane fridge with the fan on. I try to fill up near the previous day destination before arriving, so i'm starting with a fuller tank. I run the propane until I need to fill up. I then turn off the propane tank which shuts off the propane fridge. The rest of the trip is done without running the fridge, but the fan is still running. I Keep thinking I need a 3-way switch for the fan to save that power for the dry camping?

[gjmaker95]

Well, after more careful measurements I've determined that I can go with the 300W array that I referred to earlier (the $100 return shipping charge helped me make that decision) Because my AC is on the front shell, I'll mount the panels on the rear shell on either side of the roof vent that's there. The panel dimensions are 58.4 in × 26.2 in × 1.5 and I have 32" from the roof vent to the trim strip on the edge of the shell so I should be able to mount them there fairly easily.

I've read in other posts here that mounting the charge controller close to the battery is better. How close, and do you all have any suggestions on how to run the wiring on the rear shell? It came with 70 feet of 10AWG wire and in particular, I am wondering what to use to secure the wiring to the rooftop, and where/how to run the wire in the main box of the camper. Would it be better to run it underneath or inside?

[Padgett]

Not sure about a 3023 - do you have a compartment at the rear under the bed accessible from the outside ?

On my 2720SL I am running the cables down behind the street side bed window, over to the rear arm, down the arm, and into the rear street side compartment where my batteries are. I have also mounted the controller on an aluminum plate there.

Home Depot has a Cordmate II Kit (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Legrand-Wiremold-Cordmate-II-Kit-C210/202264878)with enough to do the job.

[LoveToCamp]

I have mounted two panels now, on two different TMs. I used a white wire channel from Home Depot to run my wire from the roof to the bottom of the shell. From there, I used zip ties to secure the wire to other wires, the support arm, and underneath the trailer.

I put silicone on the leading edge of my channel, to add strength to the installation.

[gjmaker95]

Thanks for those tips, Padgett & LoveToCamp. I was thinking of going to HD today and checking that out. My 3023 does have a large storage compartment in the back, but I have a long run to my batteries as they are mounted up front on the tongue of the camper. I have two 6V Trojan T105's (225 AH each) that I need to run the cable to. Not sure yet where I am going to mount the controller as I understand it has to be as close to the battery as I can get it.

As far as fastening it, what size/type of screws d you recommend for attaching the panels to the roof? The kit came with Z mounts and bolts, but I am thinking I may need to use some sheet metal screws on the top edge where the square tubing runs and then some LockTite heavy duty construction adhesive on the inboard mounts. What do you think? Recommendations on screw sizes/types?

LoveToCamp: I am interested in the reason you use the angle rail rather than the Z mounts. Was that to get a lower profile installation?

[gjmaker95]

Answer isn't that simple...
Next test is with the reefer on what current is going to the TM and what current do you measure at the battery and what voltage at the battery.

Measuring the voltage at battery and such is no problem. Sorry for this basic question, but how do I measure current coming from the TV when it's hooked up to the TM? I don't have any way to get the leads from my multimeter into the line to measure that.

[Padgett]

I am thinking about buildng a Bargman break out box to make the sort fo thing easy. Really just requires a Bargman socket pair and some #10 wire to connect. It does help to have a clamp on DC ammeter (can get one for about $40 on Amazon - note AC clamp ons are cheap but ones that do DC also are not-so.)

[gjmaker95]

That sounds like a neat DIY project, Padgett. However, at the moment I am just trying to get this rig set up with solar power for our trip to the Grand Canyon this summer. I guess I may have to just do the trial and error thing and set up the solar panels on the rear shell, run the wire I have and see what I get. I'll run the fridge on DC on our outbound leg with the solar panels hooked up along with the TV and see what I get when I stop for gas and on our first night. If I have a full charge at the end of that day's run then I won't worry about having to run the fridge on propane while towing. I'll also try to track the battery levels after full day of sun, clouds rain, etc. I am pretty confident that with 300W of panels wired in parallel I will have more than enough juice to keep the system topped off day to day no matter what I throw at it (AirCon notwithstanding!). We're not running high amp stuff like toasters or coffee makers so I think we'll be okay.

[LoveToCamp]

"what size/type of screws do you recommend for attaching the panels to the roof?" NO! NO! NO! NO!

No screws through the roof in my installations. Nor in the installations that The Car Show (Colorado dealer) does. Which explains "the reason you use the angle rail rather than the Z mounts". I wanted no holes in my roof, so I asked The Car Show how they mount theirs. Thus the angle-aluminum.

Mount the "L" to the panels with bolts, then put 3M VHB tape (I used half-inch for my first mounting, then got 3/4" for my second TM installation). Be sure all surfaces are clean (alcohol-wiped) and dry, then apply the 3M VHB tape. I got 5 yards of the 3/4", and it was a bit pricey. But much, much cheaper than a leak in the roof. After mounting with the tape, I ran silicone around the rail. I have my bolts where I can remove them, remove the panel, and have access to the inside of the rail for silicone. Between the silicone and the VHB, my panels have not shifted a bit, and no water has come inside. The length of the "L" brackets gives plenty of bonding strength: more-so than screws through "Z" brackets.

Did I mention I didn't penetrate the roof with screws? :D

I mounted my first charge controller on the front of my lower box, just aft of the battery box. Used VHB on that, also. This way, it is covered while traveling (no rain, splashback), and also sheltered when camping. Mine only had idiot lights, so there was no concern of it not being visible while shut (new TM has it inside, so I can't see it, either), nor was there much reason to look at it frequently while camping. More lights indicated more power to the batteries, but after first trip I only looked once a day, to make sure it was working. Never had low batteries after installing the panel.

[scrubjaysnest]

Measuring the voltage at battery and such is no problem. Sorry for this basic question, but how do I measure current coming from the TV when it's hooked up to the TM? I don't have any way to get the leads from my multimeter into the line to measure that.
Get a clamp on DC ammeter from Sears or some Radio Shacks have them.
With the truck at a idle in park, head lights on and tow/haul selected if your TV has that option; just set the ammeter to the 40 amp scale and clamp it over the positive lead to your batteries at the the batteries. That will tell you what the TV is doing.
DONOT put your DVM is series with the battery lead it doesn't have a high enough amperage range.

Panels can be mounted using aluminum L brackets or make up your own Z brackets from aluminum L. AS others have said DONOT USE SCREWS to attach the angle to the roof. 3M VHB works fine if you are not comfortable with that alone use it with pop rivets and 3M 4200 or 5200 caulking. Dip the rivets in the caulking before inserting in the hole. Also run a bead of caulking on the bottom of the angle but not over the 3M VHB tape.

Your wiring can come out the Cord Mate II and be run inside the frame to the controller. Where ever the wiring goes over the stabilizing jack screws use split cable loom, available at auto parts Tractor Supply and other places to reduce rubs. Use also where the wire enters and leaves the frame.
I think with your batteries on the tongue 8 AWG wire from the panels to the CC would be better but see how what you have works out.

Since I wasn't sure about the UV resistance of the Cord Mate II, I sprayed it with whit Krylon enamel.

[gjmaker95]

@ LoveToCamp:

Thanks for that information. After measuring the Z brackets that came with the kit, I actually ordered the 1" version of the 3M VHB, but since I haven't gone to HD for anything yet I can see if they have the angle rail in 1". Won't matter if they don't as a little overhang on the adhesive tape shouldn't make a difference, right? I like how you mounted your CC in the front of the TM, I'll do the same as it has a low profile.

@ Scrubjaysnest:

Thanks for those tips as well. I will try to pick up an ammeter while in route this summer to make some measurements. Also appreciate your tips on mounting the panels. I'm thinking I'll follow LoveToCamp's lead and go with the tape and silicone. I don't like the idea of drilling holes in the roof at all. I really appreciate the tips on running the wiring, I wouldn't have thought of those issues. It's going to be a busy week :D

[Padgett]

Mentioned before but one I have is this (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009CNYJG2/). AC & DC current. 40A and 400A scales. Can also measure capacitance of run & start caps.

[gjmaker95]

I have mounted two panels now, on two different TMs. I used a white wire channel from Home Depot to run my wire from the roof to the bottom of the shell. From there, I used zip ties to secure the wire to other wires, the support arm, and underneath the trailer.

I put silicone on the leading edge of my channel, to add strength to the installation.

What kind of nuts and bolts did you use? Those bolts look pretty long, and it almost looks like you used wingnuts to attach to the bolts. I actually like that idea, as it would make removal quite a bit quicker.

[LoveToCamp]

Yes, I did use long bolts and wingnuts, for ease of installation/removal. I just used something in the neighborhood of 3/16", 3" long, or so, fine thread (don't recall specs, I just get what I think will work). Much easier to manage a wingnut (not talking about myself being the wingnut) than a small nut when working in a tight space.

I would also surmise that the overhang of VHB could be a negative, as that makes it harder to do a good seal with the silicone. I wouldn't want the silicone on top of the VHB before it reached the TM roof. Not as short of a span for the silicone.

[gjmaker95]

I would also surmise that the overhang of VHB could be a negative, as that makes it harder to do a good seal with the silicone. I wouldn't want the silicone on top of the VHB before it reached the TM roof. Not as short of a span for the silicone.

Are you saying that you don't think the silicone would bond with the VHB? From what I'm reading about the VHB, the molecular bonding is quite superior. I would mainly be applying the silicone to keep weathering influences from influencing the bonding of the VHB, right?

[LoveToCamp]

Did not consider that the silicone may bond very well with the VHB tape. I was thinking liquid onto adhesive not sticking well, but I could be wrong. It has happened a time or two in my life. ;-)

If the bond is strong, that should be no problem. I just would prefer silicone to adhere to two solid surfaces, for additional strength. I look for all the strength I can get when attaching a flat sail to my trailer. I seriously doubt that I have much lift with the panel mounted behind the elevated front shell, but I also don't want to see it flying behind me like a kite.

[gjmaker95]

@ LoveToCamp:

Definitely the last thing I want to experience as well. Turns out the tape is 1", so I made sure to get 1" L bracket lengths at HD, so I should only have to caulk/seal the edges of the joint. I will get them on today and let them cure over the weekend.

[scrubjaysnest]

I had 1 5/8 inch angle and used the 1 inch VHB. Panel is still with us at Bandelier NM in NM.

[LoveToCamp]

I plan to install a second panel (with multiple overcast days, one didn't bring us back to full-charge every day). Since I only have room for one on my back shell, I have to put the second panel on the front. Both will be 100w polycrystalline. (As an aside, can Mono and Poly be combined into the same controller, at the controller?)

I am not an electrician, so I am asking those of you who know how electrons like to party: Can I run the wires from the front panel (Panel 2) directly to my charge controller, and have my wires from Panel 1 and Panel 2 join at that point? I see no difference in doing that than using the splice junction I could get from WindyNation, if my panels were side-by-side.

Kosher? Or disaster?

[Padgett]

Other than panels in parallel must be the same voltage there should not be a problem.

BTW my 2720 could handle three in parallel on the rear module but I stopped at two. 200W was a close match to the 215AH GC2s.

[Craigrrr]

I have used this Vhb 3m tape 5952 http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B007Y7H5W8?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00#customerReviews on my previous solar panels on popup camper. I have seen a lot of folks here use the 4930. 4950 I am in the hot desert sun and wonder if there is a reason to switch to the other 3m vhb tape or if you guys think this is a good tape. I never had a panel fly off or even walk off for that matter :)