Camping in the Intermountain West vs elsewhere in the nation...

[RockyMtnRay]

As I've watched the results accumulate in the poll I started on camping style (http://www.trailmanorowners.com/yabbse/index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=1191), it's becoming obvious there's a pretty strong preference (like about 2 to 1) for full hookup camping (RV Park) versus boondock (e.g. NFS, NP camping). And since my opinion of about 99% of all the commercial RV Parks I've ever seen in the entire state of Colorado is "Eeek!", "Yuk!", or "Bleccch!", I'm wondering why in the heck anyone would ever choose an ugly, virtually tree-less, hardly-a-blade-of-grass, cheek-to-jowl jammed together commercial RV Park by a busy highway over a nicely forested, green, cool, spacious NFS campground by a nice stream just to have full hookups.

And then it dawned on me at that the camping situation...like so many other things...is apparently different here in the intermountain west (the roughly quarter of the nation that stretches from the eastern front of the Rockies westward to the eastern slopes of the Sierra and Cascade mountains). This is a region that is largely federally owned (IIRC, over 90% of the land in Nevada is owned by the US Government)...and more importantly, nearly 99% of all the forest and mountain areas are under some form of federal ownership (NFS, BLM, NP, etc.). It is also a region that, outside of the higher, cooler, wetter mountain areas, is downright arid and often desert or nearly so. Outside of the national forests, native trees are pretty rare and sagebrush is a heckuva lot more common.

What that means is **almost** all the nice, forested, green places for camping are on federal land...and all the campgrounds will be run by NFS, etc....but won't have hookups. And, unlike elsewhere in the nation, NFS campgrounds are incredibly plentiful...a look at the table of contents of the Coleman National Forest Campground and Recreation Directory (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0762707879/ref=lib_dp_TFCV/104-0464829-5655967?v=glance&s=books&vi=reader#reader-link) is a big clue: 4 to 6 pages each for most states, but 58 pages for Colorado, 52 pages for Idaho, 40 pages for Montana, etc.)

The corollary is that **most** commercial campgrounds & RV Parks will be located in the much hotter, much drier and dusty, often nearly tree-less valleys. And since there is a paucity of privately own-able land anywhere near the national forests to begin with, those commerical campgrounds will tend to be very small, very crowded operations. Pricey too...expect $35 and up per night with few amenities for any campground anywhere near a forest. Certainly there are exceptions...but they're pretty rare from what I've seen in my travels around Colorado, Utah, & Wyoming.

For several years I've noticed that most of the folks in NFS campgrounds have in-state license plates and the remainder usually are from Texas. Hardly anyone from anywhere else in the nation. By comparison, the one time I stayed in an RV Park (KOA in Estes Park CO), most were from the midwestern, southeastern, and eastern states and I think I was the only one with Colorado plates. (And I was there only because I needed a battery recharge and holding tank dump.)

So, I'm kinda concluding that those from the midwest and east/southeast tend to associate camping, particularly nice camping, with apparently fairly common and attractive private campgrounds/RV Parks. By contrast those of us native to the intermountain west tend to associate nice with NFS campgrounds and ugly with private campgrounds/RV Parks. Comments, thoughts?

[Windbreaker]

Yes and no. There are ugly campgrounds everywhere. There are, with the possible exception of Oklahoma, nice campgrounds, if you know where to look.

If our TM allowed us to spend 3 nights to two weeks in the boonies there would be a lot more of us staying in government owned camps. Most women require the pot a lot more than do men, we (like dogs) have trees.

Look at the poll on changes, black water tanks are a biggie!

Also please consider that lots of folks like people and people made things. Consider that the campgrounds at Disney World are almost always fully booked, months in advance.

I love camping by a river, under trees with lots of good places for walks, nature photo ops, etc. DW on the other hand prefers lots of cute shops, discount malls, crafts, classes and classes on crafts. Guess where we do most of our camping. We get a few dry camp nights just so I will continue to do most of the driving and setup/take down.

Another point is that there are a lot of us who are older, look at the jamberee photos. See any gray hair?
Older folks don't do the wilderness thing the way they use to back in the good ol' days. Don't forget that most of the parks you folks enjoy today were built by us older types, 50 plus years ago.

Enjoy, that's what they are there for! Our kids and grandkids.

[aldebnj]

Hi Ray,

The Poll asked how we camp right now? However, we are looking to change that. That's why I've been asking you questions about the solar panels. We are hoping to add the panels so we can dry camp at some of the beautiful state parks here in the North East. The private campgrounds run the full spectrum from wooded with space to basic parking lots and in many cases $36 is a average. I grew up camping in the state parks but now we have some items that need some sort of power and we need a way to recharge the batteries. Until we get the solar panels, we will have to keep going the full hook up route.

Al

[2619PDX]

Ray:
I have grown up on the west coast. Now live in Portland, Oregon.

To answer some of your questions, in my case, we opt for RV campgrounds when we're travelling and trying to get someplace. It's just easier.

We take two week trips down to Arizona and California. It's easier to stay in RV parks, and quite often, there aren't BLM or NFS campgrounds near some of the more urban area's and interstates here in the west.

You are making a destination out of NFS or BLM lands. Some folks aren't.

I know that whenever possible, we try to stay at state campgrounds or NFS or BLM campgrounds when we go on short trips where the park is our DESTINATION.

However, using our recent 2 week trip to Arizona and Californina as an example - 3500 miles roundtrip. We stayed in private RV parks throughout California, Nevada, and Arizona. There simply was no other choice.

You can't stay at a NFS or BLM campground in Tucson Arizona, or between Reno Nevada or Las Vegas, or near Disneyland or the Montery Bay Aqurium. Ain't none of them available...

However, you can CHOOSE your RV park. They ARE NOT all cheek to cheek, pack em in parks. In fact, with the exception of Anaheim RV Resort and Carmel Valley RV Resort near Monerey, we DID NOT stay in any "commercial", urban style setting RV parks. In fact, we needed full hookups to run the A/C due to the heat where we were, and we never missed not being in a BLM or NFS campground.

In Alturas California my son and I fed some horses who were near our campsite. In Wickenburg, Arizona my wife and son went rock hunting on BLM land that backed up to our campground. In Tucson, we were in a 5 star Resort - Beaudry RV Resort that we highly recommend...

As you can see, there are other sides to the camping coin, than just hard core go to the lake, mountains or coast and get away from folks kind of RV camping.

Personally, I like to do both. It's nice to have those choices in our vast Western US!

Thanks, Ray.

Gregg

[RockyMtnRay]

Windbreaker, Gregg...

Actually I think you guys are both confirming what I said about the diffferences between the intermountain west and the rest of the country...including most of California. IMO, the intermountain west does not include anything in California, Oregon or Washington that's west of the Sierras or the Cascades. It definitely does not include Portland or any other coastal region. Nor does it include anything in Arizona south of Flagstaff. So we're not talking Anaheim or Phoenix or Monterey or, for that matter, any metro area whatsoever other than Salt Lake or Denver. There are almost no outlet malls (other than around Salt Lake or Denver), few crafts-centers, etc. With the exception of I15, I70, I80, and I90 there are no Interstate highways either....and those are each separated by hundreds of miles. Think only interior Nevada, Utah, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado and perhaps eastern Oregon and eastern Washington. In other words, the big empty where the major attraction is the wilderness itself, the forests, and the national parks therein. People journey to the Colorado mountains...and Utah...and Idaho...and Montana primarily for the scenery...not the shopping or the museums or the crafts stores.

If our TM allowed us to spend 3 nights to two weeks in the boonies there would be a lot more of us staying in government owned camps. Most women require the pot a lot more than do men, we (like dogs) have trees.

Windbreaker, I think you have a point here...without an in-campground dump station (and blueboy tote), yeah, about 2 to 3 days is the TM's waste water limit...even if you travel solo as I usually do. OTOH, 6 days is the longest I've ever wanted to stay in one place anyway.

And since I use my TM's toilet strictly for urine, I can usually extend my black water dump periods to as much as 6 to 10 days. Reading between the lines, I'm gathering this might not be so easy to make happen with some wives, eh? ;)

If I didn't take a daily shower, I could make the grey water last a lot longer too....but being able to take a shower inside was one of the primary reasons I got a TM instead of an A-Liner or Coleman popup...and after a day of climbing mountains a shower is absolutely necessary.

To answer some of your questions, in my case, we opt for RV campgrounds when we're travelling and trying to get someplace. It's just easier.

We take two week trips down to Arizona and California. It's easier to stay in RV parks, and quite often, there aren't BLM or NFS campgrounds near some of the more urban area's and interstates here in the west.

I gotta admit I tend to forget that getting to anyplace I want to go to is usually less than a day's travel time (often a matter of only 2 or 3 hours)....versus the multiple days many of you are on the road to get to your vacation destination. Yeah, if I ever start having multiple day journeys just to get to my destination (say, for instance into northern Montana), I too might think about using commercial RV Parks.

In fact, we needed full hookups to run the A/C due to the heat where we were, and we never missed not being in a BLM or NFS campground.

Another issue with two ways to approach it. Certainly, if you're going to go to a hot place, then A/C is necessary, and full hookups are needed (or a generator with attendant hassles). Me...I simply don't go to hot places. If it's hot where I am, I simply go north and/or to the higher lands cause it's never hot at 10,000. When I bought my TM, my dealer really tried to convince me to get it equipped with A/C. He kept saying "you'll need it if you go anywhere to the east or south in the summer". My response: I'll never, ever go east or south in the summer. Hence my TM doesn't have A/C and most likely will never have A/C.

Don't forget that most of the parks you folks enjoy today were built by us older types, 50 plus years ago.

Er....according to the ages in our profiles, you're only 3 years older than I am. :)

[Windbreaker]

You're right on the age thing. I was not in the CCC! But lots of my family's friends were. Even though I'm young, I know lots of folks over 70 who did build not only our parks but most of our nation. Even just 50 years ago the parks were not use as they are today.

Ever been to 7 Falls? We use to go by there each summer and make it a little 1 to 2 hour stop over. No lines, at first no cost, no paved road, no parking (other than along side the road) almost never saw anyone up there. I haven't been there in 40 or more years but they tell me that there is a long line outside the turn off all summer long now. That's why I don't go anymore.

They tell me you have to have reservations at most nationl parks now. Not at the ones I stay in. A place starts getting that crowded we find someplace else.
And now days that someplace else most likely has private campground (s) close to it. In fact it would be my guess that I could show you places in your state not even an outdoorsman as yourself knows about. Don't forget, Colorado and New Mexico are Texan's playgrounds. Guess we have primal memories of when the rockies were part of our country. ;)

[Carol]

RockyMtnRay,

We would absolutely love to camp in Nat'l Forests all the time. However, as you noted, the waste water is a problem. When we spent a week in RMNP a few years ago, we had to dump via the blue tote twice. Granted we were using the toilet for more than just liquids. My husband rigged up a hitch for the blue tote and we dumped at the park dump.

For our trip this fall, we have made a concerted effort to find nice full service campgrounds where we wanted to go, with the goal of finding state park like camp sites. On the way to and from our major destinations, we are staying at state parks in MN, SD, OK, KS and IA and one Nat'l Forest campground near Laramie, WY. We don't mind dry camping as long as it is not hot and need the AC, or if we're just staying for 1-2 nights.

We did find what we hope are nice campgrounds in the Black Hills (Rafter J Bar Ranch), the Tetons (Colter Bay Village) and near RMNP in CO(Nat'l Parks Retreat by the Fall River entrance). I have seen and stayed at one of the Estes Park campgrounds and will never do so again. Last time, we stopped in Loveland at the Riverview CG prior to heading into RMNP the next morning.

We will be challenged to find solutions for the waste water in the Big Horn Mountains as all we could come up with was an electric only site in a NF CG for 1 week. The commercial CG's outside the NF area were not to our liking. So, we're going to try the portapotti dumping technique mentioned elsewhere on this forum or haul 1/2 full blue tote in the back of the truck. The nearest dump is 5 miles down a highway - can't quite see towing the blue tote that far. LOL!

We have solved the power problem rather cheaply by recharging our extra battery while driving around sight seeing.

So, as you see, practicality comes into play. So, I answered the poll preferring full hookups - but in a great location, on a lake, river, etc. with lots of trees and space between sites. Unfortunately, these are hard to come by, so a choice has to be made.

Have fun whatever you do!

Carol & Stan

[2619PDX]

Ray:
I've stayed in State Parks here on the Oregon Coast that have full hookups this summer, in spite of my solar panels...

It's nice to have running water and electricity, since we have to pay for em anyway...

These were great Parks right on the ocean, which for some of us, is akin to your 10,000 foot mountains - which we also have...

I agree with Windbreaker about crowds. If it gets to over crowded, we pick somewhere else to go that's nearby...

And I agree with you that the true limitations are the TM's holding tank and toilet. With my family, we can get about 4 days max out of the tanks before having to dump - but a BLUE tote would help that, but that requires additional space for hauling...

Kinda makes tree's look good, you know? ;)

Gregg

[RockyMtnRay]

I was not in the CCC! I know lots of folks over 70 who did build not only our parks but most of our nation. Even just 50 years ago the parks were not use as they are today.
No kidding. Most of the trails inside Rocky Mountain NP were constructed by CCC...and have hardly had anything done to them since. There's no way you can get anyone to do the kind of rockwork that was done then. As for use...eeep, RMNP is getting almost 3 million visitors a year or almost the same as many, many times larger Yellowstone.

Ever been to 7 Falls?

Oh, yeah...that's a stop on the local take-visitors-around-town tour...but not for a about 10 years now. And yes, it's turned into a fancy little tourist trap...elevators, laser light shows, the whole kit-and-kaboodle. I could easily believe long, long lines on busy summer days....after all, Colorado Springs is now getting over 6 million visitors each summer.

They tell me you have to have reservations at most nationl parks now.

For camping, yes. At RMNP, reservations are absolutely necessary throughout the summer at Glacier Basin and Morraine Park campgrounds (the main ones)...and you better make them 3 months in advance. Aspenglen and Timber Creek (west side) are still first come-first served. I'm planning on camping at Timber Creek in the middle of the 2nd week of September and crossing my fingers there will be at least one open site when I arrive.

It isn't just the national parks either...the majority of the National Forest campgrounds in Colorado are now on a reservation system as well...and reservations are virtually mandatory for all Friday or Saturday nights in any NFS campground within a 150 mile radius of Denver or Colorado Springs. Same-same with the state park campgrounds....if you haven't made your campsite reservation for either within 2 weeks of when you want to camp, you aren't going to find a campsite on any summer weekend. Weekdays aren't too bad...usually a few free sites except around holidays. Planning ahead...way ahead...is a necessity.

And now days that someplace else most likely has private campground (s) close to it. In fact it would be my guess that I could show you places in your state not even an outdoorsman as yourself knows about.

Maybe, maybe not. There's still only a very limited amount of private land anywhere near the national forest or national park boundaries. And unless that land has been put in a conservation easement, it's getting bought up left and right for "40 acre ranchettes" and trophy homes (many owned by out of staters). Private campground usage doesn't generate nearly as many $ per square foot per day as do other uses...even with RVs parked 10 feet apart.

Take RMNP for example...as has been the case for years, there are only 4 or 5 very tightly jammed private campgrounds in & around Estes Park on the east side (and no available private property in the canyons below to build more); and only 2 on the west side around Grand Lake. I absolutely refuse to even think about camping in or around RMNP from late June until late August, really not until after Labor Day.

Take Summit County as another example...one of Colorado's premier tourist areas...chock-a-block full of winter/summer resorts (Breckenridge, Keystone, Dillon area, etc.), has 3 nice NFS campgrounds...but one and only one private campground (Tiger Run RV Resort) in the entire county. And Tiger Run is very exclusive...popups, tent trailers, etc. are strictly forbidden...and if you've got a free $95,000 they'll sell you your very own RV site (no, not the RV, just the site). If you want to camp with a TM anywhere in Summit County, you'll have to do it in an NFS campground. Period. I'm going up there for next week...will bring back pictures of just how beautiful that area is.

As for knowing more about the hidden get-aways in this state, it's possible but not real likely...I've been into darn near every nook and cranny of the entire state.

[RockyMtnRay]

Carol wrote:We did find what we hope are nice campgrounds in the Black Hills (Rafter J Bar Ranch), the Tetons (Colter Bay Village) and near RMNP in CO(Nat'l Parks Retreat by the Fall River entrance). I have seen and stayed at one of the Estes Park campgrounds and will never do so again. Last time, we stopped in Loveland at the Riverview CG prior to heading into RMNP the next morning.
Not to burst your bubble, but from what I've seen, the Nat'l Parks Retreat CG is yet another jammed together Estes Park camground. The Fall River valley on the NW side of the town is quite narrow and property values are sky high...hence all the tourist operations along there are going to maximize their per-square-foot income. My perception is based on a quick look a couple of years ago so I could be overly pessimistic...just don't have your hopes set terribly high.

We will be challenged to find solutions for the waste water in the Big Horn Mountains as all we could come up with was an electric only site in a NF CG for 1 week. The commercial CG's outside the NF area were not to our liking.

This is exactly what I've been trying to get at with this thread. The commercial CGs anywhere near where you want to go in the intermountain region are often just not acceptable....so the only decent camping choice is a NFS campground. But then there's the TM waste water issue. Quite frankly, what a lot of people do in really remote areas like the Big Horns is run a small garden hose grey water drain off into the forest 50 feet or so and then be pretty conservative with water. They use only the CG toilets and don't use the one in their trailer at all. I'm surprised you found an NFS CG with electric in Wyoming...so far I've only come across one electic NFS campground in all of Colorado.

[Windbreaker]

My last post got me to thinking of the good ol' days and your reply just added to that line of thought.

I remember when they first put the steps in at seven falls, dad said they had ruined it, then they added width to the road and a parking area, that's when we stopped going there, too bad the buck drives everything.

Dad use to tell us stories how they would have to back up over some passes because the gas flow in the early cars was gravity feed and if you went up front first the carberator would be higher than the gas tank.

Boy have we come a long way in a very short time and most of it is not good.

Do you know if they ever paved the Wolf Creek pass?

[efelker]

Ray's comments and passion makes me think of Robert Frost. He has definitely taken "... the road less traveled," and for him, that has "... made all the difference."

For me, I feel strongly both ways -- any day camping, is like a day in paradise (communing with nature or packed in the busiest urban park). I can turn the absolute worse KOA experience into a pleasure. Guess it's all in the attitude. Towing that TM behind you is like taking that pioneer trek west. We try to go somewhere new each time. The way I look at it -- So much to see, so little time.

[RockyMtnRay]

Windbreaker wrote:
Do you know if they ever paved the Wolf Creek pass?

Oh my. Yes, Wolf Creek Pass has been paved for at least 22 years (I personally went over it as far back as '81 on my motorcycle). Wolf Creek Pass is how US Highway 160 crosses the Continental Divide between Alamosa and Pagosa Springs, thence onward to Durango. It is indeed a tough pass...the Wolf Creek Ski Area at its top gets more snow than just about any other ski resort in the state (something around 400 or more inches of snow each winter). And to the best of my knowledge, it is the only highway route in the state that had to have concrete avalanche sheds built to deflect snowslides over the road to avoid closures. In the winter, one nasty crossing of the CD. But also a fairly major east-west route.

Dad use to tell us stories how they would have to back up over some passes because the gas flow in the early cars was gravity feed and if you went up front first the carberator would be higher than the gas tank.
Yep. I can recall my parents relating similar stories when I was a kid. Either gravity feed or a weak fuel pump.

[Carol]

Ray,

I hope you are wrong about Nat'l Parks Retreat outside of RMNP. They do have a parking lot type area for most larger trailers and motor homes. We reserved back in June for our late Sept. visit and reserved a separate site with all the hookups. I even looked at aerial photos at Microsoft's TerraServer http://terraserver-usa.com/ in picking out the place, so I hope we won't be disappointed either. I will definitely post re: our experiences at this and the other campgrounds we will be staying at this Fall.

Rafter J CG in the Black Hills has the parking lot type spaces as well as wooded, more spacious sites. From the aerial photos of the Colter Bay CG in the Tetons, the sites actually appear to be more wooded than the NP CG sites. They will definitely be closer together, however. Again, a trade off.

As far as elec sites in the Big Horn Mountains in WY, Sibley Lake CG is the only one with elec hookups. We'll see if we can get away with some gray water in the forest via a hose. I'm sure it will depend on the actual terrain and how regulated the CG is. Thanks for the suggestion. (We were once at a WI State Park where a pop-up had 2 hoses going into a ditch between our sites. Every so often, there was a very strong odor, so one of those hoses had to have been black water. Illegal, of course!)

We're just hoping that the fires out West subside soon so our trip (starting Sept. 2nd) won't be affected. Right now, we plan to stay one night in Yellowstone (no hookups) on our way to the Tetons, but the last I heard the East entrance to Yellowstone was closed due to fires, so we may have to avoid Yellowstone and take a longer route to the Tetons.

Carol

[RockyMtnRay]

I checked the address of Nat'l Park Retreat on Terraserver and it came up with a real fuzzy image...but the 13 acres part of the campground description sounds most encouraging. I probably got a glimpse of their large RV parking area and assumed the worst.

In any case, it's got to be better than this godforsaken RV park along US Hwy 24 just north of Buena Vista (http://terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?t=1&s=10&x=2003&y=21511&z=13&w=2)...tho ugh a string of 14,000 foot peaks lines the valley's west side, the valley floor is hot, dusty, and dry. But you'd never know from their website just how crappy this place actually looks (http://www.snowypeaksrvpark.com/facilities.htm).

This upper Arkansas river valley area is a classic case of a situation where the NFS campgrounds (which are in up in the mountain side valleys) are cool, lush, and green whereas the commercial campgrounds down in the main river valley are basically about as nice as migrant worker camps.

[Happytrails]

Ray, your initial observations were pretty much right on target.....sometime you should travel to the outter banks of NC to the beaches. Can take that tow vehicle right out on the beach, back it up 5 feet from the waves, throw out some beach chairs, throw a few lines in the surf, turn the radio up, and open up that cooler filled with whatever AM, or PM beverage that suits ya, and simply relax for a change. If ya simply can't stand it, and need some exercise, you can go out and swim in the rip tide anytime ya want! Nah, it's not that bad, but you'll DEFINATELY get a full body workout, that's for sure! If ya go out on Okacroke Island (sp?) It's so private that you and the little lady can find some private time right on the beach.........Not commercial, not all built up, tho these days the OBX are "kinda" getting that way, but on the island, and dry camping your thing, you'll be just fine! It's a beach, every bit as nice as you personally would want Ray, just like ya brought it from home. ;) Spralled out, not many people, and really nice.

Happytrails..........

[RockyMtnRay]

sometime you should travel to the outter banks of NC to the beaches.
Actually I already have traveled the entire outer banks of NC. Did it back in '76...I was a USAF officer stationed at Ft Lee, VA and did a lot of traveling all over the east coast.

throw out some beach chairs, throw a few lines in the surf, turn the radio up, and open up that cooler filled with whatever AM, or PM beverage that suits ya, and simply relax for a change.

Wellll...

I don't fish and don't particularly like to even eat fish. Tried fishing once...about 10 years ago...found it mind numbingly boring. Way too passive...you mean I have to wait for some stupid fish to find my hook???? After 30 minutes of impatiently waiting, I decided to try a proactive approach by holding a pan over the water and yelling "here, fishy, here fishy" That didn't work either but I felt better because at least I was actively doing something and not just waiting. ;D

Because my job is totally sedentary (sitting in front of a computer all day writing software), relaxation for me is moving, challenging my muscles, etc. If I'm sitting, I'm working or reading...actively using my mind. The idea of just sitting and doing nothing is, for me, simply incomprehensible.

Basically I'm an REI-type Xtreme-sport oriented outdoorsman, and definitely not a Cabela's hunting/fishing type of traditional outdoors sportsman.
If ya simply can't stand it, and need some exercise, you can go out and swim in the rip tide anytime ya want!

Swim??? Me??? In the OCEAN??? :o You have gotta be kidding! Come on, Bill, I'm a mountain man who grew up in and lives in what's basically a high altitude desert. Water is a precious commodity...you drink it, shower the stink off with it, and maybe play on it (like with a Kayak). But get in it???...no, no, no, homey don't play that game. ;D

I think the last time I actually waded out in the ocean was somewhere around '72 when the Air Force had me stationed down around Panama City FL.

It's so private that you and the little lady can find some private time

LOL. The private part would be nice but there's no little lady in my life. I'm one of the "happily never married" types. 99% of the time I travel solo, very occasionally I'll bring a male buddy along.

It's a beach, every bit as nice as you personally would want

I'm just not a beach person. Or an ocean person. I mean, most of the time, the water just sits there sloshing back and forth like in a big ol' bathtub. (Yawn). And most beaches, especially those along the Atlantic and Gulf are realllllly flat...and I don't deal at all well with flat landscapes. I gotta have vertical and lots of it.

The other problem I have with beach/ocean environments is all that water also means gobs of humidity. And I also don't deal at all well with humidity levels over, say, 20 to 25%. Especially when it's mixed with high temperatures (over 70 degrees). Accordingly I will never again voluntarily travel east of the 100th meridian...the actual dividing line between the moist east and the arid west. (http://geography.about.com/library/weekly/aa011402a.htm

http://geography.about.com/library/graphics/100th.gif

[grayghost]

bill-n-karen
that outer banks trip sounds so lovely, i'm sitting
here daydreaming about being there. one thing
though, instead of idly tossing a line in the water,
i'd much prefer being out on a boat hauling in the
big ones. living here in kentucky i sure do miss those
atlantic ocean fishing trips.

[Windbreaker]

Ray, boy can I relate to what you said about fishing. The one time I can remember that we tried it that I enjoyed was when I took a group of Boy Scouts to the Rockies in northern New Mexico and we stream fished the "Indian" way, with our hands. Catch them and throw them out on the bank. That was fun. Cleaning them was the pits, but after roasting on an open fire they sure tasted good.

Unlike you, I find great beauty in all of God's wilderness.
Forest are fine, deserts a delight, sea sides sensational, mountains are marvelous. I admit however that for the most part plains are a pain but fruitfull. Besides if everything were grand, how would we know.

[efelker]

Fishing is an excuse to sit in a boat drinking beer all day.

[Windbreaker]

Even when I drink beer, I like to do something, target shooting, snooker shooting, rapids shooting, whatever, just something.

[Happytrails]

GreyGhost, I've not tried the saltwater fishing trips before, but would love to. I do own a bass boat, but only freshwater fish with it. But yeah, I'd really like to try that sometime. Surf fishing is nice because you don't have to really do anything for it, just stick your rodholders in the sand, throw the lines out, and do what ya came to the beach for to begin with, simply relax. Ray, as I grew up on a lake, I do swim, but I don't care for swimming in the ocean either. Of course the outter banks isn't known for it's swimming areas due to it's strong undertow's and riptides. One thing I do like is crabbing on the sound side. The water's so shallow, you can walk out so far in it that you look like a dot in the distance from the beach without ever going over your head! Though I'd been to the OBX several times, year before last was the first time I tried that and really liked it. I was amazed at all the saltwater "hermit" crabs that were there....lol, didn't even know they existed in saltwater. (I was mainly catching blue, and soft shell crabs though.) At one point I was walking along for a long way behind a stingray slowly swimming along in water about knee deep. My dog really liked that place to because the water was really calm, and shallow, and he could run around in it just fine. (He hid under my blazer when out on the ocean side.) Anyway, to each their own I suppose. I'm EXTREMEMLY busy at my work running around all over the place, the quiet serenity of a beach appeals to me......

Happytrails.....