Elkmont Weight - too good to be true?

[cchenot]

We are prospective Elkmont 22 buyers, and are having a hard time believing the numbers posted about the dry weight. It's obvious what the "pro's" would be to a trailer this light. But what are the "con's"?

And if the advertised dry weight (23K to 28K lb) is not accurate, how can we get a truly accurate weight?

Not that we're generally suspicious by nature ;) but it just has us curious as to why TrailManor seems to be the only company that's discovered this manufacturing process to keep the weight down. Any insights on that?

Bottom line - we would like to tow with a Highlander Hybrid (3500 lb.) and before buying both the trailer and the vehicle want to get the feet-on-the-street scoop! Thanks to anyone who can share.

[Shandysplace]

There are several Elkmont 22 owners who post here who can respond with their make and model of their TVs.

And, of course, the only way you can know the towing weight of an Elkmont 22 or any other TM is to take it to a truck scale.

We traded in our 3326 for our Elkmont 26. We estimated our fully loaded 3326 to be 5,000 lbs, the towing limit of our Suburban. We estimate the fully loaded towing weight of our 26 to be 500 lbs. less or 4,500.

If you haven't already, check the towing info on www.trailmanor.com.

Our experience suggests as well as posts here that many TM owners do not have adequate towing capacity. Your towing capacity on level ground is very different than if you're pulling up and down the mountains of California as we regularly do. Keep that in mind as you go through the decision process; how much you strain the engine and transmission pulling up and how safely you can brake to an emergency stop and control going down. Don't scrimp on your controller; purchase the best you can afford.

TM quality and customer support has improved markedly since Bob Eckhoff became CEO.

Good luck with your purchase.

[mjlaupp]

....And if the advertised dry weight (23K to 28K lb) is not accurate, how can we get a truly accurate weight?....
Your numbers are off by a factor of 10. They should be: Base dry weight = 2.3K, With options = 2.8K. Add propane and battery = 2.9K. Add another 100# for unknowns and 70# for the WDH now you are up to 3.1K.

3.5K - 3.1K = 0.4K. Can you go RVing and only pack 400#?

An additional factor to consider is this: "The maximum you can tow depends on the total weight of any cargo, occupants and available equipment." from the Highlander Hybrid spec sheet.

Subtract the TV cargo, occupants and available equipment and you are at 0# for camping gear.

If you browse the RV forums and towing recommendations pages, you will find that most of them recommend a 15% safety factor when calculating towing capacity. That works out to: 3.5K x 0.85 = 2.975K.

If you follow this guideline, then you should not tow more than 3.0K behind the Highlander Hybrid.

[Shandysplace]

Should also have said there are many on the forum who have mastered the technical nuts and bolts of towing. Mike is a good example among others.

[Bill]

To add to what Mike said, it is certainly true that the numbers can be confusing. The Elkmont 22 has a "base dry weight" of 2248 pounds. Both terms - "base" and "dry weight" - mean that the 2248 pounds does not include any options. I seem to recall (but you ought to confirm) that one such item is the Value Package - it is not included in the Base Price or the Base Weight. And if I recall my email to the factory, the weight of the Value Package was well above 400 pounds. So that is your starting point.

Now as Mike said, add in all the other stuff you will take on the road in the camper with you - water, propane, food, clothes, dishes, bedding, toolbox, TV, stereo, and toys of all kinds, and - well, you see where this heading. Dry weight doesn't mean much any more.

Now you go to the tow vehicle, and work in the opposite direction. Start with the Base Tow Rating - 3500 pounds, is it? Now start subtracting the weight of all the stuff you will have in the car when you camp. Wife? Kids? You, if you weigh more than 150 pounds. Cargo in the back (boxes of stuff that everyone carries)? Your "towing stuff" box (yes, you will have one)? Camp chairs and tables for outdoor meals? A grill, and some charcoal or an extra propane tank? It is hard to think of it all, but it will be there.

So with the weight of trailer going up from Base Weight, and the capability of the car going down from Base Towing Capacity, it is real easy to get on the wrong side of the equation.

I can't comment on the advisability of towing with a hybrid. I'm not sure anybody can - "big" hybrids haven't been out long enough for anyone to accumulate any meaningful experience. But your location, while beautiful, says that you will almost certainly get into some mountains, and maybe some big mountains. From Arroyo Grande, you really can't go anywhere without doing so. And while you might - MIGHT - think that 3500 pounds will get you by in Florida or the Great Plains of the midwest, I'd be real skeptical about full-size mountains.

As someone else suggested, your first step might be to ask your dealer to find an Elkmont equipped the way you will want it, hook it up behind one of his vehicles, and take it to a CAT scale so you can see the actual weight. CAT scales are everywhere, check their web site. He should be glad to do this, and it will cost you $9 for the weighing fee. The weight you see will still be only dry weight, and will not include all the stuff you will add later. But at least your stuff is under your control. The rest is not.

A tough decision. Good luck with it. And if you go forward - be absolutely sure to get the factory towing package.

Bill

[cchenot]

Thanks so much to everyone for the details. All of this will certainly help to inform our decision!

[ShrimpBurrito]

FYI, as a guideline, the approximate dry weight of my 2720SL is 2750 lbs, but when I am packed and ready to camp, it weighs about 4,000 lbs with "optional" equipment like A/C, awning, batteries, propane, water, food, clothes, etc. Others here have reported 3,500 to over 4,000 lbs (maybe 4200 lbs? I can't remember).

It adds up real quick.

Dave

[ThePair]

Be aware the Toyota differs from other manufacturers with regards to the way they list towing capacity. This discussion has been hashed out many times on these and other forums.

The short version is, check out all the vehicle ratings, not just towing capacity. This is because you may have cargo capacity in the TV that does not take away from the tow rating. Other manufacturers tend to take the max weight rating of the TV, subtract the curb weight, and call that the tow rating--any cargo will thus take away from that. Toyotas tend to have some extra "room" in there--but again, I've not seen the numbers for your vehicle.

[mjlaupp]

Did you see this quote I posted above?

An additional factor to consider is this: "The maximum you can tow depends on the total weight of any cargo, occupants and available equipment." from the Highlander Hybrid spec sheet.

It looks like any additional weight has to be factored in.

[ThePair]

I know that my TV has some cargo room that does not detract from the tow rating. I don't recall the exact numbers, but I believe my vehicle has a GCWR of 8700 and a curb weight of 4400+, which leaves a bit over 4200. The tow rating is 3500, so I can put some passengers and gear in my TV and still have the full 3500 to tow. I know that other Toyota models are rated similarly. I do not know about his particular model, which is why I said he'd need to look at his own numbers.

However, "any" weight may not take away from his tow rating, as is the case with other vehicles. That's all I'm saying -- he needs to check out the specific numbers for himself, and not assume that every pound in the TV is one less pound he can tow.

I'll say it again: There are some TVs rated that way, but many Toyotas are not.

[scrubjaysnest]

I know that my TV has some cargo room that does not detract from the tow rating. I don't recall the exact numbers, but I believe my vehicle has a GCWR of 8700 and a curb weight of 4400+, which leaves a bit over 4200. The tow rating is 3500, so I can put some passengers and gear in my TV and still have the full 3500 to tow. I know that other Toyota models are rated similarly. I do not know about his particular model, which is why I said he'd need to look at his own numbers.

However, "any" weight may not take away from his tow rating, as is the case with other vehicles. That's all I'm saying -- he needs to check out the specific numbers for himself, and not assume that every pound in the TV is one less pound he can tow.

I'll say it again: There are some TVs rated that way, but many Toyotas are not.
Toyota GCWR

Year Model GCWR (lbs) 2006


4Runner 9195
Avalon 4640
Camry -
Camry Solara -
Corolla 4180
Highlander 5170
Highlander Hybrid 6220
Land Cruiser 12400
Matrix 4329
Prius -
RAV4 4950
Sequoia 12000
Sienna 7770
Tacoma 8100
Tundra 11800
found this table on the internet for the 2006 'yota's.....

Also found this generic standard, can't say about the 'Yota's but it applies to every Dodge, Ford, GM, Jeep, and even the Datsun pick I once owned.
I tend to air on the cautious side. Especially since our '11 2720SL is about 600# heavier than Dave's before you add in any accessories. We also never tow it with fresh water.

"If you're ever planning to tow a trailer with your vehicle -- whether it's a car, truck or SUV -- you should be aware of your gross combination weight rating, so you should probably start by learning the definition of a GCWR. A vehicle's GCWR is a specific weight determined by the manufacturer to be the maximum weight of a loaded tow vehicle and its attached loaded trailer. The total weight of the tow vehicle and trailer should never exceed the manufacturer's listed GCWR"

[Bill]

I swore I wasn't going to get into this again, but let's try it this way.

The Highlander Hybrid has a curb weight of 4762 pounds (about 500 pounds heavier than the non-hybrid - that's the batteries). Curb weight means the vehicle weight with all standard options and all fluids, but no cargo and no passengers. In other words, the weight of the vehicle itself, sitting at the curb, ready to go. Definition confirmed on wikipedia and others.

The Highlander Hybrid has a GCWR of 6220 pounds, as you pointed out. Confirmed at other sites.

The difference between the GCWR and the Curb Weight is 1458 pounds. No matter how much magic Toyota builds into its ratings (and I for one don't see any magic, and no one has every showed it to me), I'm not sure how you are going to fit a 3500 pound trailer in there.

What have I missed?
-------------------------------
I also note that if you get the optional factory-installed towing package, it seems to come with a 4-pin electrical connector. That says something about what Toyota expects you to do with this vehicle.

One other point. Like every other manufacturer, Toyota clearly says "Don't exceed ANY weight numbers." So focusing on GCWR and ignoring the rest is probably not a good idea.

Bill

[mjlaupp]

Bill,

The Highlander Hybrid has a GVRW of 6150 (I just looked it up on the Highlander spec sheet). I have been all over the web looking for a GCWR for this vehicle and have only found it listed here: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-parts/towing/towing-capacity/vehicle/gcwr37.htm 2009 GCWR = 8158#. Does not list for 2011 and I can not figure out where the numbers came from.

The difference is now 3396# total capacity for passengers, cargo and trailer.

Like you, I did not want to get involved in the Toyota magic load calculations. I am still waiting for a real world, documented proof that in the Toyota world there is no relation between Curb weight, GVWR and GCWR.

[Bill]

Mike -

As you said, 6150 is the GVWR. A GVWR of 6150 and a curb weight of 4762 leaves a cargo capacity of 1388, which is what is claimed. So you can add 1388 pounds of people and stuff (and trailer tongue weight) to the vehicle, and not exceed that particular rating.

But of course that has nothing to do with the trailer.

To address the trailer, you really need the GCWR. Perhaps you and I and ScrubJaysNest are all reading from the same source, but that is the number that keeps coming up.

So I am still concerned with the difference between GCWR and Curb Weight. If the GCWR is indeed 8158, and not 6220, the situation improves. But still - 3396 pounds for passengers, cargo in the tow vehicle, trailer, and cargo in the trailer? I wouldn't go there, but that's just me.

As a lightweight estimate of carefully controlled weights for the above, I'm thinking
......350+200+2800+300 = 3650 pounds.
I don't know if the OP will be camping with kids, but two kids and their stuff could add 300-400 pounds ...

Bill

[scrubjaysnest]

This has been a problem I have been chasing ever since we picked up the TM. I just located the GCWR for our Dodge RAM 1500 Crew Cab today. With the weight of the truck, plus cargo, and the TM; 8000# GCWR may be pushing it. When we returned from Ft Worth the TV/TM combo seat of the pants felt fine. Plenty of braking, acceleration was fine and RPM and MPG were the same as what we got towing the pop-up. While loading up for this years trip I have added the weight of a 10 foot jon boat while at the same time reducing what I carry in the back of the truck. But until I get everything loaded and weighed I won't know really where I'm at.:)

[ThePair]

Bill,
Like you, I did not want to get involved in the Toyota magic load calculations. I am still waiting for a real world, documented proof that in the Toyota world there is no relation between Curb weight, GVWR and GCWR.

I only have access to my numbers:
GCWR 8700
Curb wt as delivered 4495
Tow rating 3500

This means that even if I'm towing at full capacity, I still have 700 lbs for passengers and cargo. That was the only point I was making; the way Toyota lists its numbers allows for *some* weight in the vehicle (in my case 700 lbs) without taking anything away from the towing capacity. This is not true for all manufacturers, some of whom start to lose capacity as soon as more than the driver get in the vehicle. If Toyota listed the tow rating like Honda, for example, I'd have a 4200 lb tow rating (not accounting for other factors, obviously!)

That's why I said to look at his own numbers before making any assumptions about what he may or may not be able to carry/tow.

[mjlaupp]

I only have access to my numbers:
GCWR 8700
Curb wt as delivered 4495
Tow rating 3500
You are saying that an actual GCWR exists in print for your vehicle? Could you please provide the missing numbers for the following and where you found each of the numbers?

GCWR 8700
GVWR
GAWR Front
GAWR Rear
Curb wt as delivered 4495
Tow rating 3500

Perhaps if the rest of us could see this data, it make it less magic and more real world.
Thx :)

[ThePair]

You are saying that an actual GCWR exists in print for your vehicle? Could you please provide the missing numbers for the following and where you found each of the numbers?

GCWR 8700
GVWR
GAWR Front
GAWR Rear
Curb wt as delivered 4495
Tow rating 3500

Perhaps if the rest of us could see this data, it make it less magic and more real world.
Thx :)

Those were in the owners manual aside from the curb weight (see below). These numbers are from the sticker on the doorframe:

Cargo Capacity 1185
GVWR 5690
GAWR 2845 for both front and rear.

The curb wt was from a website, seems slightly off as 5690-1185=4505, minor difference of 20 lbs. All the other numbers are directly from the van or the owners manual.

[cochise]

WOW......The world is finally awakening. Back in 2009 we went to Texas RV from Arizona to purchase our Elkmont. We had been reassured, repeatedly by a Mr. Schultz there, that we would have no problem towing the Elkmont with our Hyundai Santa Fe, which had a towing capacity of 3500 lb with 350 on the tongue. We soon found out that they were downright lying to us. And I still have the documentation to prove it. We went and bought a nice used Chevy Silverado with a tow capacity of 5000 lb. That went well for the year we owned the Elkmont, although the gas mileage was only around 10-11 mpg. So when we finally after way too many problems were able to settle out of the Elkmont, we purchased a Lance trailer, almost the same size, but with a better layout than what we had in the Elkmont. Today I know that we might as well have taken TM up on their offer of a new and better Elkmont, (probably the 26) since we have had our share of problems with the Lance further complicated by the fact that the nearest dealer is more than 150 milaes away, and they told us after having had the Lance for repairs for 6 weeks that they don’t want to do warranty work on trailer they have not sold themselves. Since the Silverado (6 cyl) gave us low mpg, we looked at a bigger truck, and were fortunate to find a 07 Ford F150 with only 10K on it, but with a 5.4 V8, and a capacity of 9000 lb. We are getting better mileage, about 12-14 mpg towing at 55-60 mph, so that is better.

I now know that the travel trailer industry basically is “fraternizing very liberally with the truth” in presenting their products. I also think that TM has at least recently tried to make an effort to be more truthful all around, but that is only one manufacturer. Most lie about the weight by using terms that are hard to understand for the average person. The quality is nothing to write home about, although the manufacturers of the individual items going into the production of a trailer are doing their best to deliver a good product. The companies putting it all together are the ones to blame cutting corners here and there.

But I also found that a travel trailer’s dront, rear and sides makes for a fantastic billboard. So if you see one rolling down the highway with wording on it expressing the owners feeling about the brand, it may be me.

[brulaz]

Google "SAE J2807", and you'll find info about a new towing standard/protocol that apparently Toyota has already started using. Maybe some of the Toyota "magic" is related? (I can't claim to have looked at the standard in any detail).

And shouldn't these posts be moved to a new thread elsewhere, Bill?

[cchenot]

Did you see this quote I posted above?

An additional factor to consider is this: "The maximum you can tow depends on the total weight of any cargo, occupants and available equipment." from the Highlander Hybrid spec sheet.

It looks like any additional weight has to be factored in.

[cchenot]

Great discussion everyone. Sorry it's redundant for many of you - I know we're just coming into this party late. By the way, "he" and "his" is really "she" and "her", as I'm the one (Carol) who is doing the preliminary research - which I will then turn over to "him" and "he" (Ross) to put legs on it and do something with it. :)

Thanks again for all the insights. We hope to together enjoy lots of good trips as long as we can come up with an initial decision we can both live with!