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Old 04-06-2017, 11:17 AM   #11
Bailey'sMom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Padgett View Post
Exactly, each state is different.

At least this is how it works in Florida.

ps there are actually two forms of salvage title here: salvage rebuildable (rare) and salvage COD (certificate of destruction). With a COD the vehicle can never be licensed and can only be sold three times before being dismantled. This is the most common form because it is the least expensive.

As I said and Padgett reiterated, every state is different. Wisconsin actually has about 18 different types of "brands" that can be placed on a title. Each one means something different and has different consequences. Wisconsin actually has a separate "brand" for hail damage.

And yes, title conveys ownership. But it also gives additional information about that property in the case of a branded title.

Always best to know how it works in your state prior to making a decision on what to do.
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Old 04-06-2017, 11:58 AM   #12
Bill
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Sara -

I'm with Padgett on this one. I don't get it.

Suppose my TM sustains some damage - maybe hail on the roof. The insurance company asks the TM factory how much to repair it, and the factory says "$5000". The insurance company gives me a check for $5000, I give it to the factory, the factory does the repair, and I get my repaired trailer back. Nowhere in this process does the term "salvage" come up, and the title is not marked in any way.

Now suppose the same scenario happens, but the insurance company says my TM is worth only $4000. They give me $4000, and I add $1000 of my own. Just as before, I give the factory $5000, the factory does the repair, and I get my repaired trailer back.

Same damage, same repair, same cost, same final result. But in one case, my trailer is substantially devalued, and my title is forever branded with a scarlet letter (in this case, a scarlet "S"). Why?

Like I said, I don't get it.

Bill
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Old 04-06-2017, 12:47 PM   #13
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The issue that is here is when the cost to repair exceeds the value of the item and the insurance company "totals" (exceeds the total amount of the insurance).

Now what happens here is that one of two things happen: either the insured accepts the maximum amount the insurance company offers and surrenders the title or agrees to accept a lesser amount and retains the item. Strictly speaking the second case is "agreed insured value" of the damage and your second case applies.

The problem occurs when an insurance company obtains the physical title and immediately submits it to the DMV to transfer ownership to them. The cheapest way to do this is to obtain a salvage title and once they do that you are done even though you never intended to transfer the property.

Personally I always get a paper (not electronic) title, keep in a safety box, and never surrender or even produce the title unless it is my intent to surrender the item.

As continually said each state is different and I have spent most of my life in Florida but my thought was if I intended to accept a lesser value and repair the item and the insurance company (or a bank) arbitrarily changed the title to "salvage" I would be consulting a lawyer about "theft of property".
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Old 04-06-2017, 01:37 PM   #14
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I'm with you at least part way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Padgett View Post
[W]hen the cost to repair exceeds the value of the item and the insurance company "totals" (exceeds the total amount of the insurance) ... one of two things happen: either the insured accepts the maximum amount the insurance company offers and surrenders the title ...
Why would I surrender the title? The insurance company has no ownership rights to the trailer. They simply agreed to pay up to a certain maximum amount in the event of damage, and when they pay that, they have met their obligation. The insurance company has no further responsibility or involvement.

Quote:
... or [the insured] agrees to accept a lesser amount and retains the item. Strictly speaking the second case is "agreed insured value" of the damage and your second case applies.
Please clarify - agrees to accept a lesser amount than what? If less than the amount of the damage, then I agree with you. The insurance company pays, I retain, end of story. (If you meant less than the policy coverage, then I don't agree, but I don't think you meant that.) Assuming I agree to accept a lesser amount than the amount of the damage, and I retain the item, then nothing should happen to the title. And that includes the insurance company calling DMV.

Quote:
The problem occurs when an insurance company obtains the physical title and immediately submits it to the DMV to transfer ownership to them.
Why does the insurance company want (or have right to) ownership? I agree that this is where the problem occurs.
Quote:
The cheapest way to do this is to obtain a salvage title and once they do that you are done even though you never intended to transfer the property.
Quote:
Personally I always get a paper (not electronic) title, keep in a safety box, and never surrender or even produce the title unless it is my intent to surrender the item.
But how does this help if DMV alters the official title of record? As soon as the new owner submits the paper title you gave him, DMV will spot the discrepancy, and the nastiness begins.

You are certainly correct in saying that things are different in different states. And I'm not even close to understanding all of it. But some of this seems like core issues, and I feel like there is something basic that I am not understanding.

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Old 04-06-2017, 09:07 PM   #15
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Default Definitions of branded title

A few good explanations of branded title....

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/de...t_facts/ffvr33

http://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/dmv/ve...es/brands.aspx

http://www.dol.wa.gov/vehicleregistration/salvaged.html

http://www.dmv.utah.gov/buying-selling/salvage-vehicles

http://www.autocheck.com/vehiclehist...t-title-brands


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_title_branding
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Welcome Sophie DOB 1/5/2021
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New to me 2010. 2720SD TrailManor
New to me 2010 Chevy Traverse

Both purchased July 2013

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(SLIGC115 Duracell Ultra 6V Deep Cycle Golf Cart Battery x 2)
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Rohent R7 HD 1080P RV Wireless Backup Camera Installed Sept 2020
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Old 04-06-2017, 09:38 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill View Post
I'm with you at least part way.

Why would I surrender the title? The insurance company has no ownership rights to the trailer. They simply agreed to pay up to a certain maximum amount in the event of damage, and when they pay that, they have met their obligation. The insurance company has no further responsibility or involvement.

Please clarify - agrees to accept a lesser amount than what? If less than the amount of the damage, then I agree with you. The insurance company pays, I retain, end of story. (If you meant less than the policy coverage, then I don't agree, but I don't think you meant that.) Assuming I agree to accept a lesser amount than the amount of the damage, and I retain the item, then nothing should happen to the title. And that includes the insurance company calling DMV.

Why does the insurance company want (or have right to) ownership? I agree that this is where the problem occurs.

But how does this help if DMV alters the official title of record? As soon as the new owner submits the paper title you gave him, DMV will spot the discrepancy, and the nastiness begins.

You are certainly correct in saying that things are different in different states. And I'm not even close to understanding all of it. But some of this seems like core issues, and I feel like there is something basic that I am not understanding.

Bill

If the camper is totalled and you don't buy it back...then it is owned by the insurance company. They paid you full value for it.

If you buy it back, you own it and you get new title with brand.

If you completely repair at a repair shop, you should be able to get brand modified if it passes whatever inspection is necessary in your state. Again remember the reason for the branded title is because of the percentage of damage. Even after repair Its never as good as new, thus less valuable. Remember, value only matters when you go to sell. If you are keeping it for years it doesn't matter.

Think about this....what something is worth to you is vastly different than what KBB or NADA say something is worth. Insurance company doesn't care that you just put in a new $500 toilet a week ago, and redid the flooring, and painted it and made it the best camper ever...that is not in blue book so it doesn't count. That is why it sucks so bad when an accident or weather damage occurs and it's not your fault. You will never get what it's worth to you.

This is also why you never want to have a loan on your camper or your car (I know, in an ideal world) because then you have even less control over the situation. In those instances the bank will control a lot of what happens. Or you end up owing them significantly more after it's totaled because you had a high deductible and or it was underwater when you took out the loan or the insurance company Just didn't pay as much as you think it's worth.

A Great example is hail damage. If you have a loan on your vehicle and there's hail damage your choices will be to get it repaired or to put that money down on the loan and not advance the due date. You can't just pocket the money. The reason is because if you don't fix it that vehicle value has decreased and therefore the lender will require that money to pay down the loan.




I don't know how many states require inspection of a pull behind camper. Wisconsin doesn't. So would they know if you fixed the damage and are using it? No. But then again it has to be registered each year to get sticker for plates, so maybe they would red flag it at that point.

Best thing as I said before is to call your state and find out your options before deciding whether to buy it back.
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(RIP Bailey - 12/6/2020)
Welcome Sophie DOB 1/5/2021
Mini Goldendoodle (who's not so mini)


New to me 2010. 2720SD TrailManor
New to me 2010 Chevy Traverse

Both purchased July 2013

Factory installed 80W solar panel.

New batteries June 30th 2018.
(SLIGC115 Duracell Ultra 6V Deep Cycle Golf Cart Battery x 2)
New bag seals Sept 2020
Rohent R7 HD 1080P RV Wireless Backup Camera Installed Sept 2020
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Old 04-07-2017, 07:16 AM   #17
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"Once more unto" etc.
- as long as you have a physical title you have some control
- whether a title is "branded" is between you and the insurance company
- any insurance company/adjuster is happy for the insured to accept a lesser amount and keep the item, they (except in special cases) do not want it.
- DMV does not really care other than to make sure licensed vehicles have insurance. Some states require periodic inspection, Florida does not, but you can be ticketed if "unsafe".

However at least here, if an insurance company receives a title and needs to transfer, they will generally take the least expensive option - salvage (see: they don't want it).

ps here a COD title can only change hands three times - once from the insurance company & you see online auctions at cheap prices & COD titles. The second time is when the auction house transfers to the suc^H^H^H eager buyer who can then only sell on once more. There is a way to take three near identical COD cars, often with little damage, and combine their parts into a third car. The state then inspects to make sure three different VINs have been used and then issues a new VIN and a sticker that must go on the door jam. I have a friend who funds his hobby doing just that.

However many are tempted by a super low online price on a Florida car, but must make sure it has a good title, most CL adverts here have a special note for a "clean Florida title". Florida even provides a web site where you can feed a VIN and it will show the title and registration status (but not the owner).

pps we Floridians have a long and prosperous practice of "skinning Yankees", is part of the reason we need no state income tax.
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Old 04-07-2017, 10:01 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bailey'sMom View Post
If the camper is totalled and you don't buy it back...then it is owned by the insurance company. They paid you full value for it.

If you buy it back, you own it and you get new title with brand.

If you completely repair at a repair shop, you should be able to get brand modified if it passes whatever inspection is necessary in your state. Again remember the reason for the branded title is because of the percentage of damage. Even after repair Its never as good as new, thus less valuable. Remember, value only matters when you go to sell. If you are keeping it for years it doesn't matter.

Think about this....what something is worth to you is vastly different than what KBB or NADA say something is worth. Insurance company doesn't care that you just put in a new $500 toilet a week ago, and redid the flooring, and painted it and made it the best camper ever...that is not in blue book so it doesn't count. That is why it sucks so bad when an accident or weather damage occurs and it's not your fault. You will never get what it's worth to you.

This is also why you never want to have a loan on your camper or your car (I know, in an ideal world) because then you have even less control over the situation. In those instances the bank will control a lot of what happens. Or you end up owing them significantly more after it's totaled because you had a high deductible and or it was underwater when you took out the loan or the insurance company Just didn't pay as much as you think it's worth.

A Great example is hail damage. If you have a loan on your vehicle and there's hail damage your choices will be to get it repaired or to put that money down on the loan and not advance the due date. You can't just pocket the money. The reason is because if you don't fix it that vehicle value has decreased and therefore the lender will require that money to pay down the loan.




I don't know how many states require inspection of a pull behind camper. Wisconsin doesn't. So would they know if you fixed the damage and are using it? No. But then again it has to be registered each year to get sticker for plates, so maybe they would red flag it at that point.

Best thing as I said before is to call your state and find out your options before deciding whether to buy it back.

I actually have a permanent tag. So the insurance said the bank should mail the title to me. That's why I asked the question.
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Old 04-08-2017, 10:04 PM   #19
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I actually have a permanent tag. So the insurance said the bank should mail the title to me. That's why I asked the question.
I don't know anything about "permanent tags". We don't have such a thing in Wisconsin. Is the tag your title? Or plates? In Wisconsin we have plates that ar renewed every year.
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(RIP Bailey - 12/6/2020)
Welcome Sophie DOB 1/5/2021
Mini Goldendoodle (who's not so mini)


New to me 2010. 2720SD TrailManor
New to me 2010 Chevy Traverse

Both purchased July 2013

Factory installed 80W solar panel.

New batteries June 30th 2018.
(SLIGC115 Duracell Ultra 6V Deep Cycle Golf Cart Battery x 2)
New bag seals Sept 2020
Rohent R7 HD 1080P RV Wireless Backup Camera Installed Sept 2020
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Old 04-09-2017, 06:17 PM   #20
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Quote:
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I don't know anything about "permanent tags". We don't have such a thing in Wisconsin. Is the tag your title? Or plates? In Wisconsin we have plates that ar renewed every year.
Permanent plates. No yearly renewal.
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