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Old 04-05-2010, 04:50 PM   #21
cochise
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BRULAZ..here is why your furnace worked so poorly.

Suburban in their installation manual, copy of which I have if you are interested, requires a minimum of 55 sq in return air. And since you probably only have two air inlets, one into the bathroom and one on the short leg of your seat by the battery box, they are only 4 in which gives an open area of 25 sq in optimally, in the case of the elkmont with the grille probably only about 23 sq in, there simply is not enough area to expel the heated air into the living area. I had the exact same problem, only when we contacted TM they washed their hands of the whole thing. I than contacted SUBURBAN and they are now handling it. They have told me that they want it fixed and will do it at their expense and than go to TM. (See the enclosed doc).

I also paid 20K+ cash for my Elkmont and I damn well want it to function the way it should.
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Old 04-05-2010, 05:04 PM   #22
rumbleweed
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I would use the plywood not knee pads as you really need to distribute your weight which knee pads will not do well. Use a 2 or 3 foot square piece of 3/8 ply and glue carpet to the bottom side. This is especially important if you are putting weight on the roof near a seam.
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Old 04-05-2010, 07:25 PM   #23
curlyontop
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Not intending to ruffle any feathers but I am STILL trying to grasp why everyone is willing to accept the unacceptable???? These units are not cheap and should not have to be tweaked or worked on by new owners!!!!
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Old 04-05-2010, 08:00 PM   #24
brulaz
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Curly,
we spent a lot of time looking at other trailers and the only one that had the specs we liked was the Elkmont. Unfortunately, there is no Canadian Dealer for the Elkmont, so we went to Texas.

We were told by friends to buy a trailer (ANY trailer) close to home from a dealer that would fix any problems. Unfortunately that wasn't an option for us since we were set on the Elkmont.

It would have been nice if all these problems did not occur. But they did, I'm fixing them, end of story.

People who are not willing to go this route should buy from a reputable dealer close to home.
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Old 04-05-2010, 08:50 PM   #25
brulaz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cochise View Post
Suburban in their installation manual, copy of which I have if you are interested, requires a minimum of 55 sq in return air. And since you probably only have two air inlets, one into the bathroom and one on the short leg of your seat by the battery box, they are only 4 in which gives an open area of 25 sq in optimally, in the case of the elkmont with the grille probably only about 23 sq in, there simply is not enough area to expel the heated air into the living area.
Thanks, cochise, I have the manual but haven't had the chance to go through it yet.

As far as I can tell, the single heat output opening right at the furnace side has only a 4" diameter or 12.6 sq in. Only after that does it fork into the two 4" pipes.

So really, the heat output opening is restricted to 12.6 sq in.

And you are saying that opening should be 55 sq in? And Trailmanor has reduced it down to only 23% of what it should be? Sheesh.

I have seen a picture of an Elkmont where the furnace is vented directly into the living area through a much larger rectangular vent at the rear of the furnace. That vent could easily have been 55 sq in. Not sure if that installation had a vent to the bathroom though.

This on my list of things to look at more closely, so thanks for the heads up.
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Old 04-06-2010, 02:23 PM   #26
cochise
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brulaz View Post
Thanks, cochise, I have the manual but haven't had the chance to go through it yet.

As far as I can tell, the single heat output opening right at the furnace side has only a 4" diameter or 12.6 sq in. Only after that does it fork into the two 4" pipes.

So really, the heat output opening is restricted to 12.6 sq in.

And you are saying that opening should be 55 sq in? And Trailmanor has reduced it down to only 23% of what it should be? Sheesh.

I have seen a picture of an Elkmont where the furnace is vented directly into the living area through a much larger rectangular vent at the rear of the furnace. That vent could easily have been 55 sq in. Not sure if that installation had a vent to the bathroom though.

This on my list of things to look at more closely, so thanks for the heads up.
Ok.. The furnace has a 4" opening on either side of the front of the furnace, (which is right behind the long "L" of the couch. There is a dividing luan wall between the furnace and the water tank. To obtain more heat in mine, a dealer in Tucson turned the tank so it is parallel to the outside wall and installed a duct to the front of the trailer, hence to 23-25" opening. The manufacturer stipulates that: "The minimum return air to the furnace must total 55 square inches free area". And that is something that TM has NOT done. My trailer will be worked on tomorrow by a an AUTHORIZED tech, picked by SUBURBAN manufacturer to correct the hazardous installation by TM. They had not even screwed the furnace to the floor nor did they comply with the clearance requirement to combustible material. There is a second 20K BTU model that has a front grille thru which heat is expelled into the trailer. That model number is NT-20SE, but it also has the cabability to heat the bathroom thru a 4" duct. The model you and I have you CANNOT maintain yourself, i.e. clean inside, without removing the whole furnace from the trailer, and good luck with that.
Picture 810 shows before adding the missing air ducts, and 1627 shows after the water tank was turned to allow a duct to the front of the trailer. Still not enough area by far, but helping. Tomorrow it should be corrected.
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Old 04-06-2010, 04:54 PM   #27
brulaz
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Oh, so it's the input or return, unheated air to the furnace that needs 55 sq in.
My installation may have that (or not). I'll check this weekend.

But if it's drawing in through 55 sq in it seems to me it would be better if it's putting out through 55 sq in so as not to restrict the air flow too much. I would definitely prefer that model number NT-20SE with the large front grill. And as you say, the easy access would be a plus. Wonder why they switched? I've seen pictures of the Elkmont with that model installed, and originally thought ours was one of them.

Heh, at least ours is screwed down. It also has a little plywood box around it. Not sure why ...
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Old 04-09-2010, 11:46 AM   #28
cochise
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brulaz View Post
Oh, so it's the input or return, unheated air to the furnace that needs 55 sq in.
My installation may have that (or not). I'll check this weekend.

But if it's drawing in through 55 sq in it seems to me it would be better if it's putting out through 55 sq in so as not to restrict the air flow too much. I would definitely prefer that model number NT-20SE with the large front grill. And as you say, the easy access would be a plus. Wonder why they switched? I've seen pictures of the Elkmont with that model installed, and originally thought ours was one of them.

Heh, at least ours is screwed down. It also has a little plywood box around it. Not sure why ...
The point is it is NOT drawing thru a 55 sq in opening. ...
On April 7, 2010 I was directed by the manufacturer, Suburban, to take my trailer to one of their authorized repair centers in Tucson AZ. They took one look at it and called in another expert. Their verdict: They would not touch it, as the TM installation was totally wrong. Email I got later from Suburban:

"I did receive a call from Javier @ LaMesa RV late yesterday and he explained what they found. From discussion with them it appears that they felt that they could not perform the repairs due to the installation and that they could be held accountable if something occurred with the wiring etc.

I will contact you today for further discussion".

So we are back to square one. I strongly suspect that there are a number of other Elkmonts out there with similar problems, and that it is only a matter of time before a mishap happens. Suburban again advised us not to use the furnace until the problem has been corrected. And because TM claimed in an email to me that the installation had been approved by Suburban, they are going to the factory to monitor the installation and also to tell them that there was/is no way they would authorize such an installation.

I will now seek legal advise to see if the lemon laws can be applied here since there has been 3 attempt to correct the installation.
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Old 04-09-2010, 04:28 PM   #29
cochise
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Here is what TM have had to say about the installation of furnace model NT-20S:

The furnace should have two screws into floor. Can be removed vertically with the removal of the top cover, slid sideways with the removal of the side divider, or the sofa front can be removed to slide furnace toward center of trailer.

We have not blamed Suburban for errors in installation. We have however, had the intended installation reviewed and approved by Suburban. Any deviations from the intended installation should be addressed by a dealer and will be paid for under warranty.

Intake air is provided around other gaps as well, including through bath cabinetry and around rear corners and sides of sofa seat. We have not had any issues with furnace performance in other Elkmonts.

Exhaust piping should be centered in the outside wall of the trailer to provide 3/8" gap all around. Dealer should check this issue.

Suburban vehemently denies EVER approving such an installation. As a matter of fact I was told that if anyone at Suburban deviated from written installation procedures or tried to say it was OK they would be FIRED! TM claims that return air is supplied through the gap between the front vertical seat support and the bottom of the seat. However I measured the crack and found only 1/2" clearance and when someone sits on that seat it is further depressed, decreasing the area. And if the furnace is screwed to the floor, how are you going to lift it out for maintenance? They actually laughed out loud at Suburban when they read that.

Fact is TM screwed up but will not admit it. Not until something serious happens and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration gets involved. Someone here on the Forum suggested that I write RVIA and let them know. I did. I am not awaiting their answer.

As it is installed by TM, the furnace will not/cannot perform correctly.
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Old 04-09-2010, 06:40 PM   #30
brulaz
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Well, Cochise, I have similar problems, but I'm not sure if it's a return airflow problem in my case.

First, I've had a closer look at our Elkmont's furnace and its manuals and am a bit confused. According to these manuals, our furnace is a NT-20SE. The serial # on the manual and on the furnace match. I could not find any model # on the furnace.

The problem is that the Suburban NT-20SE is supposed to have a large rectangular (~10"x10") louvered grill covering the end opposite the end with the combustion intake & exhaust pipes through which most of the heat exhausts. It also has a single, round 4" opening on the side that can be used in addition to the main grill. But ours has a blank cover instead of the grill, and the single 4" side opening is all that feeds heat to both the bathroom and living area.

By contrast, the NT-20S is not supposed to have a rectangular end grill but, I believe, *two* side 4" openings. The bryantrv.com web site has a couple of Suburban furnace manuals, one of which has a table (the upside down one on p.12) listing the NT-20S and NT-20SE clearances and duct requirements. The 20SE model has "special clearances for discharge grills", the 20S requires two 4" round ducts with a total of 25 sq in discharge area and 55 sq in of return area. There is no return area specified for the 20SE but I imagine it is the same as the 20S.

I don't see any cutouts for another 4" duct on ours, so I really do think it must be a 20SE with what is supposed to be the louvered end closed off.

Also, according to the manuals we received, the return intake for the NT20SE is through louvers in the two sides and top near the end with the combustion intake & exhaust pipes, and through the end itself when that is separated from the trailer wall. Our installation has one side covered but good access to the other side, top and end. So as long as return air can get under the setee, it can get into the furnace ok. And there do seem to be enough gaps and vents for air to get under the setee in our installation, although we would prefer that more of the return air came from the bedroom area than the dining area. This would improve circulation and reduce re-heating of already heated air.


So our heating problem seems to be inadequate discharge vent area and inefficient recirculation. It seems to me that the discharge vent area should be at least what the NT-20S requires, two 4" vents or 25 sq in. And the ~10"x10' louvered grill of the NT-20SE probably has more ... closer to 50 sq in.

I'll be contacting Trailmanor about this next week. We'll see what they say.

Oh, and the furnace was not screwed to the floor after all. But they had boxed it in sufficiently to make it tight. Still ...
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